|
wateroverfire posted:What do you think he's saying here? Yes. quote:How about no-platforming by entering an event venue and disrupting an event? I don't agree with it, no, but I can't say for sure that Ddraig doesn't.
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 16:48 |
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Okay. So what should be done? People should be able to voice their complaints to those in the chain of giving him a platform, who should be empowered to cancel the engagement, as well as to engage with the complaints in a positive or negative direction. If the campus withdraws support, then the group that invited him to speak should be able to get a private venue with non-college funds if applicable unless it's somebody who doesn't skirt the line and does something like outright advocate violence, in which case the college would be within its rights to withdraw recognition from the group. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me at any step of the way, but there might be a loophole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 17:41
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:People should be able to voice their complaints to those in the chain of giving him a platform, who should be empowered to cancel the engagement, as well as to engage with the complaints in a positive or negative direction. If the campus withdraws support, then the group that invited him to speak should be able to get a private venue with non-college funds if applicable unless it's somebody who doesn't skirt the line and does something like outright advocate violence, in which case the college would be within its rights to withdraw recognition from the group. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me at any step of the way, but there might be a loophole. Pretty sure this is already the case. The right to have your voice heard doesn't mean that you're going to get what you want.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 17:45
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Pretty sure this is already the case. The right to have your voice heard doesn't mean that you're going to get what you want. I'm aware, don't think I've given any impression otherwise. I'm more worried about getting a system that tends towards good results then doing a check to see if there's any structural biases that can be remedied to improve things further than in somehow inexplicably expecting everything to turn out perfectly every time. And if opinions that aren't actively harmful that I disagree with get a fair hearing, and the ones I do agree with get a fair hearing, that's valuable for its own sake.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 17:58
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:I'm aware, don't think I've given any impression otherwise. I'm more worried about getting a system that tends towards good results then doing a check to see if there's any structural biases that can be remedied to improve things further than in somehow inexplicably expecting everything to turn out perfectly every time. And if opinions that aren't actively harmful that I disagree with get a fair hearing, and the ones I do agree with get a fair hearing, that's valuable for its own sake. Do you consider Milo speaking on campus at non-mandatory events to be a bad result? I don't, not any more than I consider Objectivist or Communist clubs being able to use campus facilities a bad result.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:03
|
|
|
SSNeoman posted:I know you're worried about they tyranny of the majority, but I do not believe this applies to the current situation. When I say that it's a hell of a concession to make, part of what I mean is that I hope you're okay with greenlighting the use of this tactic by anyone against anyone and that you're grasping how few people it actually takes. Also, just so I'm clear: I would much rather have universities not invite someone at all than invite them and allow the event to be taken over. SSNeoman posted:You're assuming good faith on both sides of this issue. Like I agree with you, but that's not what's happening is it? Whenever a republican talks about abortion and birth control, they're not promoting family values, they're using dogwhistles to punish women for having sex. Assuming good faith should be the default on any widely-supported political position because, by definition, those positions have no shortage of sincere believers. falcon2424 posted:No one's calling for protestors to be arrested. Who What Now posted:Milo isn't a puppetmaster, he's a petty rear end in a top hat who tries (poorly) to hide his real views behind a thin facade of irony. TheImmigrant posted:So why, in spite of all the outrage and protests, do you think universities continue to host this guy?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:07
|
|
|
I don't know what the appeal of seeing Milo in purpose even is. It's like 4chan Live, where the guy goes out on stage, shouts memes for an hour, and causes some people to have gigantic meltdowns that are recorded and posted online. Yeah, it's a spectacle, but what's the point?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:17
|
|
|
woke wedding drone posted:So, work all day, hate black people on facebook all night. "Save them," says blowfish, "save this white supremacist from consequences! Trabisnikof posted:It's almost as if you're purposefully ignoring my point that protesting against lovely speakers and retracting said shittty speakers because of protesters isn't inherently a bad thing. Secular Humanist posted:Haha jesus christ... there is literally better discourse in GBS.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
OneEightHundred posted:This is what I mean when I say "incessant rush to assume the worst possible motivations." People buy into political positions for different reasons, usually multiple at once, and the least-effective approach to talking them out of it is telling them that you know what they're really thinking, and that it's a collection of reductive buzzwords. Exaaactly, which is exemplified perfectly in that Muslim feminist woman who was disinvited from goldsmith's. All the conservative Muslim student organization had to do was claim they felt "threatened" by her "Islamophobia", and that was enough for the campus feminist society to JOIN in their condemnation.... of a Muslim feminist. Because campaigning for women's rights in Muslim countries, AS a Muslim woman who has lived in said countries, is very Islamophobic, and she must hate Muslims and be trying to oppress them and not the exact opposite of that. And I mean she sounds like a little old grandma when she talks. If people can do the necessary mental gymnastics to paint HER as a "white supremacist" or "racist" then Milo never stood a chance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:20
|
|
|
OMG JC a Bomb! posted:I don't know what the appeal of seeing Milo in purpose even is. It's like 4chan Live, where the guy goes out on stage, shouts memes for an hour, and causes some people to have gigantic meltdowns that are recorded and posted online. Yeah, it's a spectacle, but what's the point?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:23
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:And I mean she sounds like a little old grandma when she talks. If people can do the necessary mental gymnastics to paint HER as a "white supremacist" or "racist" then Milo never stood a chance. Hey, what good points do you think Milo makes that we liberals are trying to silence because we can't admit it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
twodot posted:I figure it's got to be just pure in-group signaling, but I'd be curious what someone who goes to such a thing claims to take away from it. Worst case? Justification.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
OMG JC a Bomb! posted:I don't know what the appeal of seeing Milo in purpose even is. It's like 4chan Live, where the guy goes out on stage, shouts memes for an hour, and causes some people to have gigantic meltdowns that are recorded and posted online. Yeah, it's a spectacle, but what's the point? I'd guess that some think he's funny, others go because they get a frisson of naughtiness from it, and certain masochists go to be outraged.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
OMG JC a Bomb! posted:I don't know what the appeal of seeing Milo in purpose even is. It's like 4chan Live, where the guy goes out on stage, shouts memes for an hour, and causes some people to have gigantic meltdowns that are recorded and posted online. Yeah, it's a spectacle, but what's the point? often the spectacle is the point, especially if you're just looking for a big team rally. i mean that's what most political rallies are, same as concerts - a chance to be with a bunch of fellow thinkers in the flesh
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
twodot posted:I figure it's got to be just pure in-group signaling, but I'd be curious what someone who goes to such a thing claims to take away from it. It's as if, beneath his insanely obvious vaneer of provocative trolling, he has real opinions that are based on empirical reality and objectivity and are at the very least worthy of honest consideration and not insanely arrogant blind puritanical condemnation. I know! It's wacko! Who What Now posted:Hey, what good points do you think Milo makes that we liberals are trying to silence because we can't admit it? That the wage gap is an earnings gap and is grossly misrepresented, that not all black people view themselves as inherent victims of a white supremacist society, and that so-called "third wave" feminism is a hateful ideology completely removed from the original feminist principles of equality of opportunity and equality of access. I agree with these things. When he starts saying "human being" a lot and talking about all the black dudes he blows I kind of check out because I'm not interested in his theatrics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Stop thinking this is a left-right issue. It's not. Milo is not a conservative intellectual, he's an vapid, arrogant little poo poo. Universities do permit, and benefit from, an environment of diverse intellectuals, ie- people committed to rational discussion. Both the pro-Palestine and pro-Israel crowds are capable of marshaling those kinds of speakers, so they obviously deserve a space. But the constant refrain here defending Milo is 'well he's just trying to get a rise' - if he's trying to get a rise, he's not saying anything of value, and should therefore never be granted the privilege of speaking in a prestigious institution, like a university. Any fuckhead can 'get heard', you can go to a street corner and speak your mind. That's not what people like Milo want, as much as they say that is what they want. What they want, is to latch onto the legitimacy and respect of the higher education system, to grant their bigotry a wider audience and influence then it would otherwise have. It's an self-interested power play, and there's no reason that should ever be given to them. They do not deserve it, because they have not earned it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:And yet, if Koch Industries was monitoring employees' facebook for "anti-Christian" statements and firing them for it, we'd be hearing nothing but clucking about how terrible they are and how the conservative thought bubble is real. Tell me, why is it only OK when people you agree with do it? Religion is protected under employment law and we are discussing campus speech so your Koch example is a non sequitor Conservative universities cancel speakers all the time. I can remember my conservative liberal arts school banning all pro-gay marriage speakers from all campus events and clubs for example. I disagree with that, not because I think universities shouldn't have that power to control speech on campus but because they were executing that power in conflict with my values. I critique them not because they exercised their right to control speech on their campus but because of their reasons and the values underlying those reasons. All universities control speech on campus and saying students shouldn't contest that control when it conflicts with their values is an anti-speech position. Also, I'm not defending threats of violence, so you can stop trying to pretend I am.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:That the wage gap is an earnings gap and is grossly misrepresented, that not all black people view themselves as inherent victims of a white supremacist society, and that so-called "third wave" feminism is a hateful ideology completely removed from the original feminist principles of equality of opportunity and equality of access. I agree with these things. When he starts saying "human being" a lot and talking about all the black dudes he blows I kind of check out because I'm not interested in his theatrics. it's odd that there aren't that many people explaining these opinions without openly hateful language. huh
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Hey, what good points do you think Milo makes that we liberals are trying to silence because we can't admit it? I suspect his point is that certain people, given the opportunity, would silence him. He wants to provoke those people into clear demonstration of that desire. I really don't know how this isn't obvious to everyone - it's not particularly sophisticated provocation, but it's very effective.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:It's as if, beneath his insanely obvious vaneer of provocative trolling, he has real opinions that are based on empirical reality and objectivity and are at the very least worthy of honest consideration and not insanely arrogant blind puritanical condemnation. I know! It's wacko!
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:It's as if, beneath his insanely obvious vaneer of provocative trolling, he has real opinions that are based on empirical reality and objectivity and are at the very least worthy of honest consideration and not insanely arrogant blind puritanical condemnation. I know! It's wacko! You're obviously interested in his theatrics, just the ones that appeal to you, since of those three points, two are pure opinion, of which the second is the only one that has any truth, in that a lot of black people do not consider themselves to be the victim of a society out to get them, this much is true, but the reality is that it is out to get them, which statistics and hard facts show.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
"look, when he talks about how feminists are basically nazis he makes some good points but when he starts saying c*ck and fag it's just too much for me"
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:I suspect his point is that certain people, given the opportunity, would silence him. He wants to provoke those people into clear demonstration of that desire. I really don't know how this isn't obvious to everyone - it's not particularly sophisticated provocation, but it's very effective. That point is exactly as facile and disingenuous as the rest he makes, because if he manages to get people to want to stop giving him a platform for speech with no value all he's established is that people can be motivated to reduce the impact of speech with no value. And that in and of itself isn't a big point, it's like acting shocked that you can't try to create a stampede by shouting fire.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
woke wedding drone posted:So, work all day, post communist posts on facebook all night. "Save them," says blowfish, "save this leftist from consequences!!"
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:39
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
Communism and racism are definitely comparable and are definitely going to impact somebody in the workplace the same way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:All the conservative Muslim student organization had to do was claim they felt "threatened" by her "Islamophobia", and that was enough for the campus feminist society to JOIN in their condemnation.... of a Muslim feminist. Because campaigning for women's rights in Muslim countries, AS a Muslim woman who has lived in said countries, is very Islamophobic, and she must hate Muslims and be trying to oppress them and not the exact opposite of that. Yeah, that attitude has always rubbed me the wrong way. Evidently a women's rights group was recently shut down on Twitter after they, as Saudi women, lobbyed for more freedom for women in their country. At least Twitter has the (bad) excuse that they're mandated to please their large Saudi investors. A university should by no means allow the silencing of voices in favor of the fair treatment of women just because they're frightened of a religious group making demands.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:That point is exactly as facile and disingenuous as the rest he makes, because if he manages to get people to want to stop giving him a platform for speech with no value all he's established is that people can be motivated to reduce the impact of speech with no value. And that in and of itself isn't a big point, it's like acting shocked that you can't try to create a stampede by shouting fire. The meta-point that he's making is important, and you shouldn't be comfortable with quashing speech based on such a subjective notion as 'no value' anyway. The discomfort of the would-be silencers really is delicious. Milo is a sort of juvenile clown/picador type, thriving on the controversy you're giving him. To silence him would be like banning media coverage of the Kardashians. You'll be happier people when you learn to ignore things that offend you. Better yet, learn to stop wearing "PUSH ME" buttons on your foreheads, and chill the gently caress out. By working up your righteous churchlady steam and casting about to DO SOMETHING, you're doing exactly what he wants.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
So people should simultaneously ignore him while at the same time providing him with platforms since to not do so is playing into his hands. He truly is the master of puppets. He's operating 50 moves ahead at all times, which is neatly balanced out by being about 50 years behind the curve.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:59
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:The meta-point that he's making is important, and you shouldn't be comfortable with quashing speech based on such a subjective notion as 'no value' anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
ah, the "im not touching you" gambit. profound
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:04
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:The meta-point that he's making is important, and you shouldn't be comfortable with quashing speech based on such a subjective notion as 'no value' anyway. This argument also applies to the people who say students shouldn't protest because they don't consider it worth protesting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:04
|
|
|
twodot posted:any venue I own Of course. quote:or have a specific interest in You're really going to resist being specific on this, aren't you? I'll go way out on a limb and guess that it's much closer to "anywhere in the public or private sphere, at any time between now and the infinite future" than "any venue I own." Trabisnikof posted:This argument also applies to the people who say students shouldn't protest because they don't consider it worth protesting. Who says this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:The meta-point that he's making is important, and you shouldn't be comfortable with quashing speech based on such a subjective notion as 'no value' anyway. Who gives the thinnest sliver of a gently caress what he wants? Point out the many myriad flaws in his arguments, why some of the things he says cause harm, and let him wither in the intellectual tenement that is the alt-right. By allowing him a platform you give him an opportunity to cause conflict against people his supporters hate when instead he should be writing puff pieces to delay the moment when the dumb gently caress gators realize he's always held gamers in contempt and the dumb gently caress white nationalists and nazis remember he's a Jewish gay dude who brags about being in an interracial relationship.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:08
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:You're really going to resist being specific on this, aren't you? I'll go way out on a limb and guess that it's much closer to "anywhere in the public or private sphere, at any time between now and the infinite future" than "any venue I own." Edit: You claimed we shouldn't be comfortable quashing things, I pointed out a whole category of instances where we should be comfortable quashing things, it seems to me it's on you to explain where you think we shouldn't be comfortable quashing things. twodot fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Sep 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:09
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Of course. This person for one: The Kingfish posted:Protesting to stop a political speaker from being heard is bullshit no-effort activism and I hope that it isn't effective. The Kingfish posted:If the goal of the protest is to bar someone from speaking at a university event then I do not support that protest. There are many other reasons to protest. The Kingfish posted:Doing And I think this post applies to that anti-protester logic too: TheImmigrant posted:The meta-point that he's making is important, and you shouldn't be comfortable with quashing speech based on such a subjective notion as 'no value' anyway. Or to ftfy TheImmigrant posted:The meta-point that he's making is important, and you shouldn't be comfortable with quashing speech based on such a subjective notion as 'no value' anyway. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:14
|
|
|
given that Milos only real, consistent ideology involves stealing money from his sad, hosed up incel fanbase, he should probably be banned from campuses for the same reason that universities typically dont give speaking engagements to Herbalife salesmen
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:17
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:Who gives the thinnest sliver of a gently caress what he wants? Point out the many myriad flaws in his arguments, why some of the things he says cause harm, and let him wither in the intellectual tenement that is the alt-right. By allowing him a platform you give him an opportunity to cause conflict against people his supporters hate when instead he should be writing puff pieces to delay the moment when the dumb gently caress gators realize he's always held gamers in contempt and the dumb gently caress white nationalists and nazis remember he's a Jewish gay dude who brags about being in an interracial relationship. So, again, you are frightened by his words, so he must be silenced. I remember a day so long ago when a self professed Liberal would argue that all speech should be protected. Or, are you going to angrily post that you're a tankie, not a Liberal?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:26
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:So, again, you are frightened by his words, so he must be silenced. I remember a day so long ago when a self professed Liberal would argue that all speech should be protected. Or, are you going to angrily post that you're a tankie, not a Liberal? All speech should be protected from government censorship, not all consequences whatsoever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:29
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:This argument also applies to the people who say students shouldn't protest because they don't consider it worth protesting. How does the argument apply to that?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 16:48 |
|
|
woke wedding drone posted:So, work all day, organize labor on facebook all night. "Save them," says blowfish, "save this agitator from consequences!!"
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:31
|
|