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wicka posted:i find this to be absolutely idiotic in motogp. it forces drivers to make decisions based on information they couldn't possibly have. it's complete guesswork. at best it adds nothing to the racing, at worst it ruins it. It adds unpredictability. A lot of poo poo in motorsports is unpredictable.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:08
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wicka posted:i find this to be absolutely idiotic in motogp. it forces drivers to make decisions based on information they couldn't possibly have. it's complete guesswork. at best it adds nothing to the racing, at worst it ruins it. What exactly do you mean by this? The only time I've seen it ruin a race is when conditions were borderline between a wet or dry tire and that happens just as frequently in F1 with an open line of communication and the ability to make tire decisions much quicker.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:09
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Alain Post posted:It adds unpredictability. A lot of poo poo in motorsports is unpredictable. it takes away skill. it's not an individual sport. 1500quidporsche posted:What exactly do you mean by this? The only time I've seen it ruin a race is when conditions were borderline between a wet or dry tire and that happens just as frequently in F1 with an open line of communication and the ability to make tire decisions much quicker. i've seen a few races where there's a question of if the leader has a big enough gap to hold off someone on fresher tires who is closing, just like ricciardo and rosberg in singapore. in F1 the team can look at lap times and tire degradation and make a determination. in motogp the rider literally has no idea that scenario is even happening. there's only so much you can express on a pit board and that's entirely dependent on the rider looking at the drat thing, which they don't always do. wicka fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 22:09
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The drivers can use their feel, and their own judgement.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:13
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adding unpredictability for the sake of unpredictability defeats the entire point of even having a competition, we might as well just roll some dice and give the trophy to gutierrez and save the billions of dollars
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Sep 23, 2016 22:14
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wicka posted:adding unpredictability for the sake of unpredictability defeats the entire point of even having a competition, we might as well just roll some dice and give the trophy to gutierrez and save the billions of dollars Nobody controls the weather. That's motorsport.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:14
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Alain Post posted:The drivers can use their feel, and their own judgement. they can feel their bike, they can't feel every other bike on the track and now exactly what they have to do to win, or how fast others are going, etc. don't be a doofus
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Sep 23, 2016 22:15
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Alain Post posted:Nobody controls the weather. That's motorsport. nobody can control the weather, that's an idiotic comparison there's a big difference between artificial unpredictability and the immutable laws of the universe, jim
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Sep 23, 2016 22:16
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can you even point out a race where radio communication ruined it? it's a completely fabricated complaint anyway. thought we were done with this.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:18
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Like, the weather is always going to be an unpredictable element so the idea of "fairness" goes out the window. so the idea of the drivers having to figure out the conditions for themselves is more interesting to me than having a bunch of guys at weather computers do it for the drivers.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:18
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Alain Post posted:Like, the weather is always going to be an unpredictable element so the idea of "fairness" goes out the window. so the idea of the drivers having to figure out the conditions for themselves is more interesting to me than having a bunch of guys at weather computers do it for the drivers. you're not listening, slugger: from the rider's perspective, it's literally impossible to "figure it out." they do not have the tools to make a reasoned decision. either the team does it or no one does and the race is determined by luck, which again, defeats the point of even racing.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:19
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wicka posted:it takes away skill. it's not an individual sport. There's a team element but there used to be a part of this sport that you put that car in the hands of one guy at the end of the day and ultimately it was up to him to bring it home and I miss that sort of fighter pilot mentality. Also I'd argue that Riccardo would've never been in that scenario without radio anyways. It's up to the driver to determine whether their tires are good enough to finish the race or gamble on a new set. People talk about tire management but that used to be a skill drivers actually had at one point.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:18
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wicka posted:you're not listening, slugger: from the rider's perspective, it's literally impossible to "figure it out." they do not have the tools to make a reasoned decision. either the team does it or no one does and the race is determined by luck, which again, defeats the point of even racing. No, they might make a wrong decision, but driving skill plays a huge part in how well you can go if you have the wrong tires. A skilled driver can survive if they go an extra lap on slicks if it starts to rain, a less skilled guy will put it in the barriers. Same with things like driving on badly worn rain tires on a drying track.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:20
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1500quidporsche posted:Also I'd argue that Riccardo would've never been in that scenario without radio anyways. It's up to the driver to determine whether their tires are good enough to finish the race or gamble on a new set. People talk about tire management but that used to be a skill drivers actually had at one point. it's up to the driver to feel the tires and know what they are capable of. the driver cannot look three corners ahead and see where the next car is. he cannot see the leader's lap times. there are two pieces of information here. the driver only has one, the team only has the other, they work together to get the best result they can. without radio the driver is just guessing, and that's utterly pointless.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:21
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Like even the "random" MotoGP races had things like Iannone being much better at riding on a falling-apart rain tire than his teammate was at Brno. This isn't taking driver skill out of it.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:21
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Alain Post posted:No, they might make a wrong decision, but driving skill plays a huge part in how well you can go if you have the wrong tires. A skilled driver can survive if they go an extra lap on slicks if it starts to rain, a less skilled guy will put it in the barriers. Same with things like driving on badly worn rain tires on a drying track. holy poo poo dude WHAT is your problem
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Sep 23, 2016 22:22
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it doesn't matter how good you are at driving the car or the bike, if the guy 8 seconds behind you is gaining 2 seconds a lap, and there's 10 laps left, he's catching you. and the leader can be as skilled as he loving wants, it doesn't matter, if he's incapable of knowing where second place is he's going to lose. and that's not based on skill.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:23
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wicka posted:it doesn't matter how good you are at driving the car or the bike, if the guy 8 seconds behind you is gaining 2 seconds a lap, and there's 10 laps left, he's catching you. and the leader can be as skilled as he loving wants, it doesn't matter, if he's incapable of knowing where second place is he's going to lose. and that's not based on skill. Pit boards show gaps and can show lap times.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:24
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MotoGP and GP2 have been immensely entertaining racing this year, both series have rules which have created good products.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:24
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wicka posted:it's up to the driver to feel the tires and know what they are capable of. the driver cannot look three corners ahead and see where the next car is. he cannot see the leader's lap times. there are two pieces of information here. the driver only has one, the team only has the other, they work together to get the best result they can. without radio the driver is just guessing, and that's utterly pointless. He gets the gap to the driver once per lap on the pitboard. He sees the gap going down and then figures out that he needs to start hauling rear end or pit for new tires. There's like zero guesswork involved in this.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:25
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Imagine if Riccardo pitted and Rosberg had kept poodling about for an extra two laps and then Riccardo catches him with like five laps to go and they're battling with no DRS and then one of them runs out of fuel with two corners to go because some babysitter isn't reminding them about it three times a lap. That's a textbook good 80s race.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:26
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pit boards CAN show whatever, drivers don't always look at them (sometimes there is a race happening), and at best you're given a one lap delay in implementing that strategy, which could completely change the race. at the end of the day that's just shittier, ineffective radio communication. if you're fine with telling the driver gap times, let teams whisper it in his fuckin ear
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Sep 23, 2016 22:27
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1500quidporsche posted:Imagine if Riccardo pitted and Rosberg had kept poodling about for an extra two laps and then Riccardo catches him with like five laps to go and they're battling with no DRS and then one of them runs out of fuel with two corners to go because some babysitter isn't reminding them about it three times a lap. That's a textbook good 80s race. that is a textbook awful race, good/great races are battles to the end, not "oh man he ran out of fuel because reasons" a good race is like button's miracle in canada, where vettel runs wide on the last lap. good races are not races that prevent that scenario from even happening. that's a baffling perspective.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:28
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The 1990 Mexican Grand Prix featured Senna being a dumbshit and running his tires to the rim until they fell apart. Was that a bad race?
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Sep 23, 2016 22:31
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and again - where are these races that have been ruined by radio communication? where were the brilliant races when radio communication was briefly and torturously restricted? what changed for the better?Alain Post posted:The 1990 Mexican Grand Prix featured Senna being a dumbshit and running his tires to the rim until they fell apart. Was that a bad race? did he have all the information available to make the right decision and just gently caress up? or was it complete bad luck? wicka fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 22:31
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wicka posted:did he have all the information available to make the right decision and just gently caress up? or was it complete bad luck? he was retarded
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Sep 23, 2016 22:38
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also i never claimed that radio communication had ever ruined a race. I'm just stating a preference.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:39
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Alain Post posted:he was retarded right, so you are proving my point. what you're suggesting by banning radio communication would be like banning betting and bluffing in poker, just dealing five cards to people and being like "what'd you get? oh no sorry you lose."
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Sep 23, 2016 22:41
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the radio is not an inherent part of motorsport.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:42
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I don't think motorsports has to be about making the most informed decision at every moment of the race so I think there is a far deeper philosophical difference in what we're arguing Wicka. Old F1 was great to me because those guys were getting into the car and were by themselves for the whole race. Of course there's an element of luck to it and people are going to make terrible decisions but everyone was on a level playing field and made equally bad decisions from time to time. We all bitch and moan that the drivers are robots now because they are. They have very limited input into any decision making process. I honestly think it'd be brilliant if you just threw 24 drivers onto the grid and told them to drive the race however they wanted.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:48
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wicka posted:you're not listening, slugger: from the rider's perspective, it's literally impossible to "figure it out." they do not have the tools to make a reasoned decision. either the team does it or no one does and the race is determined by luck, which again, defeats the point of even racing. You can give them that info through a pit board RIC +14s THIS LAP -2.3s PITTED 3L AGO SS that said I'm not particularly for banning radios poty fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 23:14
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Listening to driver act like petulant children over the radio is the highlight of the race for me and don't you dare try to take it away from me again.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:26
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learnincurve posted:Listening to driver act like petulant children over the radio is the highlight of the race for me and don't you dare try to take it away from me again. 
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Sep 23, 2016 23:28
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learnincurve posted:Listening to driver act like petulant children over the radio is the highlight of the race for me and don't you dare try to take it away from me again. This
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Sep 23, 2016 23:36
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FROG-BOY STFU LUV GERI + BOYS XXX LOL
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Sep 23, 2016 23:57
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wicka posted:it doesn't matter how good you are at driving the car or the bike, if the guy 8 seconds behind you is gaining 2 seconds a lap, and there's 10 laps left, he's catching you. and the leader can be as skilled as he loving wants, it doesn't matter, if he's incapable of knowing where second place is he's going to lose. and that's not based on skill. This is a false dichotomy and you know it. I'm old enough to remember cryptic messages written on pitboards and drivers sitting around in the conference after the race piecing together exactly what happened given what they all individually know. Hell, it was even more engaging for the viewers as you genuinely didn't know what was going to happen instead of today's perfect information where you know precisely how many laps someone can push on jello tires before they go back to engine-save-mode-a415. You can make an argument that the current formula puts *way* too much burden on knowing everything to even be part way workable. It wouldn't be 'impossible' for the drivers to know if they were competitive if there weren't multiple arbitrary compounds of tyres with dramatic shifts in performance over 2 laps, or a rules system that punishes leaving an engine-save mode for one lap more than necessary. I'm not FOR banning radio but the reliance on them is a symptom not a cause. It really SHOULD be possible for a driver to drive his race without someone doing an analysis of how each of the other 21 people are jumping through rules-hoops before he can feed this to his driver. In the F1 2016 game I need to repeatedly press "who am i racing" because I can't loving work it out based on being able to see everyone's lap times myself. If I pick up [other racing sim] there's no such problem.
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Sep 24, 2016 00:16
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Kilmers Elbow posted:FROG-BOY
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Sep 24, 2016 00:40
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wicka makes a good logical point, as people with his condition often do. But if you watch MotoGP you'll see numerous times where a lack of command communication from pit to rider -- not necessarily a lack of radio but more of a culture of "let the rider ride" -- has led to a surprising and interesting race outcome. Sometimes akin to a Lotus or Sauber winning a race. Not necessarily better battles on the track but at least a finishing order that wasn't completely predictable. Also, if you listen to radio calls in some other sports like NASCAR or Indy, you'll get a sense of what flat vapid corporate automatons everyone in F1 (and WEC for that matter) are. There are virtually no opinions or emotions to speak of in F1 radio transmissions relative to NASCAR which is full of hilarious poo poo all the time. F1 style radio doesn't add much to the viewing experience, with rare exceptions of Sebvet getting upset or Their Jense being witty.
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Sep 24, 2016 01:50
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learnincurve posted:Listening to driver act like petulant children over the radio is the highlight of the race for me and don't you dare try to take it away from me again. Liberty Media needs to allow commentary to car communication and car to car communication. Let's go for broke.
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Sep 24, 2016 03:16
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bless this the worst thread
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Sep 24, 2016 03:45
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