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so loving future posted:Never stay. Seriously, never. Whatever the thing was that made you start looking, it will be back. Plus they already didn't have any loyalty to you, they still don't... but now know that you don't have any to them. I get where you're coming from but idk, I think there's some mutual loyalty here. Well I mean, I don't exactly feel loyal to the company itself, more to the office I guess. The new offer I got at my current place seems really cool and exciting and I will get to work on something fairly unique. New job I don't know a ton about yet, they seem to have some neat stuff going on as well though. It's probably better for my overall career to switch. I will feel terrible whatever I do though.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:26
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netcat posted:I get where you're coming from but idk, I think there's some mutual loyalty here. Well I mean, I don't exactly feel loyal to the company itself, more to the office I guess. The new offer I got at my current place seems really cool and exciting and I will get to work on something fairly unique. New job I don't know a ton about yet, they seem to have some neat stuff going on as well though. It's probably better for my overall career to switch. I will feel terrible whatever I do though. How many places have you worked at so far? If your current job is your first one, you owe it to yourself to leave, check out another place, and see how different companies can operate. Also never confuse companies with people. Your boss might care about you (though if so, why did he wait to find the new project until you told him you had an offer elsewhere?), but the company doesn't give a poo poo. If word from on high comes down and your boss has to cut numbers, you could well be on the chopping block no matter what he thinks of you.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:How many places have you worked at so far? If your current job is your first one, you owe it to yourself to leave, check out another place, and see how different companies can operate. Yeah this is my first job (well, kind of my second) which is part of the reason I would feel bad about not taking the offer. And yeah, of course I'm not conflating people and companies, but I know the company strategy and how they prioritize employees and I'm perfectly safe unless they do some incredibly massive layoffs out of nowhere.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:50
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Has your pay been going up across those 5 years?
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Sep 22, 2016 20:52
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It's been going up a lot! But it will start to plateau pretty soon.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:56
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Go to a new place. 5 years is enough tenancy to demonstrate to future employers that you can be loyal. Now is a great time to get the experience of a new workplace culture, a new way of doing software and systems engineering, and a new way of doing product management and business operations. Maybe not all of those facets will be steps forward at your new place, or even all that different, but it's good to widen your range of experience. There's much more to to gain from joining a new company than a title change and a salary bump and a new project.
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Sep 23, 2016 01:41
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Is it really a bad idea to stay at the same place for a long time? I know Sheryl Sandberg said that these days it's a corporate jungle gym and not a corporate ladder, but I was prepared to work for Google indefinitely, and maybe try to move to Valve in 10 years if they'll take me. Is the reasoning just wage stagnation?
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Sep 23, 2016 16:16
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I can't imagine doing a job search more than once every 2.5-3 years, minimum. Maybe I'm crippling myself but it's really taxing mentally.
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Sep 23, 2016 16:26
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Stinky_Pete posted:Is it really a bad idea to stay at the same place for a long time? I know Sheryl Sandberg said that these days it's a corporate jungle gym and not a corporate ladder, but I was prepared to work for Google indefinitely, and maybe try to move to Valve in 10 years if they'll take me. There's no real hard and fast rule beyond 'cross that bridge when you get to it'. Make sure you're having regular structured discussions with management where you're both setting goals and milestones. Re-evaluate your position every now and then and ask yourself if you can be doing better somewhere else and if it's worth the risk and effort to jump. Some people get lucky and have a great ladder to steadily climb in their first job out of school. Others roll snake eyes and have to jump every 2-3 years just to keep their head above water. Others still just don't give a poo poo. It's all up to you
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Sep 23, 2016 16:51
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Generally speaking the easiest way to get "new challenges" and "more money" is to get a new job. But yeah, there's no hard and fast rule. Depends on what you want out of a job, and what sort of companies you currently work for or want to work for. Nothing wrong with staying somewhere, especially if they are big enough to provide you with new challenges and more money over time. I've got the ADD, get bored easily and like working @ early stage companies -- so yeah, job hopping works for me.
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Sep 23, 2016 16:59
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Yeah I guess it depends on the company. I was just surprised when a manager sounded embarrassed that he had been at Google for 5 years over the phone
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Sep 23, 2016 17:02
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I've switched jobs a lot. Mainly because I've been trying out new places of the country and whatnot. If my wife and I hadn't decided to pack up and gently caress off to Texas (for no reason), I'd likely be JUST looking to switch jobs from my first dev gig now. However I went from Philly suburbs -> Texas -> Philly Suburbs -> NYC and now I'm looking again because the commute is becoming very bothersome. I'm afraid to be labeled a job hopper but I'm hoping the location switches work in my favor.
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Sep 23, 2016 17:03
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Why not go remote?
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Sep 23, 2016 17:05
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aBagorn posted:I've switched jobs a lot. Nobody really cares unless you have a consistent multiyear streak of staying at places <6 months. Even one or two 6 month 'it wasn't a great fit' are fine if you have a track record of other stable jobs. And yeah, remote rules if it fits your work style. I went Philly Suburbs -> NYC -> remote, first from NYC, then moved to Montana, cause gently caress it, I can bring my job wherever.
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Sep 23, 2016 17:14
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The company I work for bases its pay on local market average for the position and makes up the difference with year-end bonuses based on the performance of the company and how many hours/budget% your sub-group pulled. I have my reservations about this approach, but I don't know if it's a good or bad deal for me. Should I be wary of this compensation setup? I'm also wondering about the next job I'll take after I spend another 6-12 months at this one. I've basically been a Rails monkey for a couple years, even though I was hoping this job was different (fat chance), and I want a change of pace. I'm not sure how to transition out of that role and into something else, though. I've thought about getting into project management as an alternative to dev work, but I've seen firsthand the effects of lovely project management and I don't want to be a part of that. My current job has rather awful development practices and doesn't have modern conveniences like CICD, AWS, design specs for the product, or a decent test suite, and all my attempts to improve that have been agonizingly slow at best. I actually miss having a team with project management and stuff like CI... I realize how important it is now. The other option is to remain at the company but ask to be on a different project, but I worry that the current one I'm on will fail hard without me. Plus, I don't think there are any good projects at the company anyway. Is this a good reason to look for another job? I may be irritated at the lack of good practices, but maybe I just need to suck it up?
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Sep 23, 2016 18:07
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I count non-guaranteed bonuses as worth exactly $0, because anybody with their hands on the company purse strings can say "we didn't do well this year, no bonuses, by the way look at our two new corporate jets that only executives will ever be allowed to use!" So yes, I'd be wary. Whether it's worth looking for another job is something else again; market average isn't necessarily a bad thing after all.
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Sep 23, 2016 18:32
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so loving future posted:Nobody really cares unless you have a consistent multiyear streak of staying at places <6 months. Even one or two 6 month 'it wasn't a great fit' are fine if you have a track record of other stable jobs. Ok good. Yeah it's 14 months -> 6 months -> 18 months -> current position is 13 months in my situation
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Sep 23, 2016 18:36
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I've written maybe 40 lines of likely terrible Scala for Spark at my current job, it's the last skill listed in the tech on my resume, and every single loving recruiter calls me about it.
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Sep 23, 2016 18:41
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Anyone ever do a HackerX event? Randomly got an invite to on in Charleston. Not really looking for a job as I got a nice remote job that lets me live here while getting paid at bigger city prices. They worth the time?
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Sep 23, 2016 18:46
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rt4 posted:Why not go remote? On the other hand, there are a number of good companies (Elastic is one I'm aware of) that pay well hiring remotely and consistently for compensation that's competitive with Bay Area / NYC kinds of wages but I'd argue that these companies are getting the best bang for their buck and as a result of that being basically top-end wages for the rest of the country, these jobs are perhaps even more fiercely competitive than if you were to apply for Google, Facebook, etc.
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Sep 23, 2016 20:15
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lamentable dustman posted:Anyone ever do a HackerX event? Randomly got an invite to on in Charleston. Not really looking for a job as I got a nice remote job that lets me live here while getting paid at bigger city prices. I went to one for my company trying to recruit and thought it was a waste. You barely have time to explain the company/role you're hiring for and none to make a connection with the candidate based on that. But if you're invited as a developer, I would go. Meet other engineers, chat a bit, and network. Eat some cheap pizza and don't worry about the 30 second interview you get with some company.
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Sep 24, 2016 04:01
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Negotiation chat! I've received an offer that I'd be entirely happy taking straight-up, but I know the common advice is "always ask for more". Unfortunately, the other two companies I'd been interviewing with in this pass both backed out due to internal issues, so I don't have any other places I can shop around to get competing offers. Do I just go back and say "hey, I like this offer, but could the numbers be a little higher?" That seems kind of...un-smooth.
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Sep 24, 2016 15:21
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Negotiation chat! I've received an offer that I'd be entirely happy taking straight-up, but I know the common advice is "always ask for more". Unfortunately, the other two companies I'd been interviewing with in this pass both backed out due to internal issues, so I don't have any other places I can shop around to get competing offers. Do I just go back and say "hey, I like this offer, but could the numbers be a little higher?" That seems kind of...un-smooth. "I'm really excited and think this position will be a great fit! My salary expectations were more along the lines of $offer+X though, let's find something that works for both of us!" No one except for the extremely psychotic will respond with "wow you sound greedy, we want real team players here, not mercenaries, we're taking our offer back". You might get a "sorry, that's as high as we can go", but more likely you'll get "Let me see what we can do/how about $offer+X/2" or whatever. If you're really desperate, or the offer is ridiculously high to start with, don't do this. But as a general approach, even when you're a little bit desperate and don't have any other current options, it's pretty safe to do, and will usually get you some cash. I think I've pushed back on every offer I've ever had, except for my first job (where I named a figure and they came back with 'uhh well how about what you asked for plus 10k'). The job that taught me this lesson: I was offered 100, asked for 130, got "this is a series-A startup, that's totally not something we can do, how's 110?" "okay". Years later, after both my boss and I left, he said "You should have said no again, we would have done 120". There's always room to negotiate. By the way, if you do get the "wow you sound greedy" and your ask is even sort of reasonable: run away very fast, that place will be dysfunctional as gently caress.
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Sep 24, 2016 16:57
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Negotiation chat! I've received an offer that I'd be entirely happy taking straight-up, but I know the common advice is "always ask for more". Unfortunately, the other two companies I'd been interviewing with in this pass both backed out due to internal issues, so I don't have any other places I can shop around to get competing offers. Do I just go back and say "hey, I like this offer, but could the numbers be a little higher?" That seems kind of...un-smooth. Yup. I just did this a few weeks ago with, 'This all looks really great and I'm very excited about this. If you can make the base salary ($base * 1.025) then I'm all yours' He immediately fired back with that number and I signed the papers. Easy peasy. Worst thing that will happen is they'll fire back telling you that you're already at the very top of the salary band. That's where you pretend to think about it for a bit and accept anyways.
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Sep 24, 2016 17:44
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I usually try to counter with +5-10% and then settle for somewhat less than that. Often they'll come back with "really the best we can do" that amounts to ~1/2 of the difference of what you asked for. Always ask for more, the haggling is expected and it's basically a free 5%ish raise.
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Sep 24, 2016 18:43
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Remote has worked OK for me, but I've worked on teams that were also split across multiple physical offices in addition to having remotes. So at that point everyone has to act as though everyone else is remote anyway. You can't just tap on someone's shoulder in the office and make a decision without involving anyone else.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:32
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Thanks for the suggestions, folks. Sounds like the rule of thumb is, ask for 1.1 * X where X is the offer, settle for whatever they counteroffer.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:48
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Noam Chomsky posted:Angular 2 is looking nice. React is good. Node is always a good thing to know if you're a JS dev. Anything that makes you well-rounded but isn't within a totally different discipline. I'm looking into the NG-book packages, and the Angular 2 version is coming soon. Seriously debating getting both so I can hammer out some Angular apps now and move into 2 ASAP. I worry about taking on too much at once since, as you noted, I'd need to go find myself a gun, and then at least one bullet (I'm a dumbass and might miss). What resources do you recommend for Rails? How are the Pluralsight courses on RoR?
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Sep 27, 2016 04:42
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BlueInkAlchemist posted:I'm looking into the NG-book packages, and the Angular 2 version is coming soon. Seriously debating getting both so I can hammer out some Angular apps now and move into 2 ASAP. I worry about taking on too much at once since, as you noted, I'd need to go find myself a gun, and then at least one bullet (I'm a dumbass and might miss). I went through Michael Hartl's Rails Tutorial and thought it was excellent. He keeps it up to date with new versions of Rails, and has a video course as well if you're so inclined(I just went through the book, it was more than adequate). Highly recommended.
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Sep 27, 2016 16:10
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BlueInkAlchemist posted:I'm looking into the NG-book packages, and the Angular 2 version is coming soon. Seriously debating getting both so I can hammer out some Angular apps now and move into 2 ASAP. I worry about taking on too much at once since, as you noted, I'd need to go find myself a gun, and then at least one bullet (I'm a dumbass and might miss). Ng-book is good, and especially if you work on doing some Angular 1 apps following 1.5 conventions, you will be close to what developing in Angular 2 is like. Also, have you used TypeScript? It's also something you should look at, especially for Angular 2 but it also compliments Angular 1 quite well.
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Sep 27, 2016 16:25
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It's hard to pin something like this down, but most of the stuff I read seems to indicate that Rails isn't a career-advancing sort of thing to learn nowadays. Some of the common complaints I hear are that its community is terrible and most of the Rails work is maintaining already-built stuff rather than building new things. Personally, I don't really have an opinion about Rails itself as I never use it anymore.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:08
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I'm getting sick of being a Rails monkey, personally. Most of what I do is either follow badly defined JIRA tickets and get features barked at me (our design specs is our CTO through our VP) while babysitting Rails newbies 'cause the higher-ups figure you can just pop random people into that role without loving things up, or coach said newbies and the rest of the team in good development and design practices like basic agile methodologies (which get horribly misinterpreted by them anyway). I don't really see a future career in this, and as nice as it is to have a stable salary at market rate and a job that's relatively liberal about me working at home (though it's stupid in other ways only corporations can be), not to mention how easy it is to be lazy and not get anything accomplished, it's just a day job for me now and I've fallen out of love with my "bring a team to sanity on my own" plan. Given how well that plan has panned out, I'm not too convinced that it'll earn too many points on my resume - who wants to hire somebody with a resume that says "tried to bring a corporation to modern dev practices but they moved too loving slowly to improve at any decent rate"? I really wanna do something more interesting, like embedded or machine learning or higher-level architecture astronaut poo poo, anything. Problem is, that's the kinda thing you need a degree for, and the best way to get good at anything anyway is to actually do it. I'm not sure what I should do to get out of my current job, or if it's even worth it given the low expectations of corporate culture and the opportunities that provides vs. startup culture and its admittedly insane productivity. What roles have other Rails monkeys transitioned into, and how did you do it? Thermopyle posted:It's hard to pin something like this down, but most of the stuff I read seems to indicate that Rails isn't a career-advancing sort of thing to learn nowadays. Thus has been my experience. Rails is the new Java/PHP in that there will always be jobs for it but it isn't really enjoyable to work with, given its baggage via old lovely projects and lack of career advancement. I want to work in more interesting technologies and languages like Clojure, Swift, or Elixir, and the more you work with Rails, the less likely that will happen. I wouldn't recommend Rails to people past the web dev newbie stage. There's better options, but unfortunately, they don't have jobs. Not any I can find, anyway... Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 18:09
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All of those complaints sound like complaints about where you work, not complaints about your tech stack.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:10
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Thermopyle posted:All of those complaints sound like complaints about where you work, not complaints about your tech stack. Yeah, true. I'm currently gauging whether to try harder at Make Team Good, or to move on after another year or so. So far, the latter is winning.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:14
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Pollyanna posted:Rails is the new Java/PHP in that there will always be jobs for it but it isn't really enjoyable to work with I love all the work I've been doing in Java, actually.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:23
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I love all the work I've been doing in Java, actually. Fair enough. I don't really know what I'm talking about, just going off the fact that most people where I work that have to deal with old Java apps generally hate their lives. Really, most languages are fine to work with and it all depends on your team, your company, what you're working on, and how sane your dev process is.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:29
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Pollyanna posted:Yeah, true. I'm currently gauging whether to try harder at Make Team Good, or to move on after another year or so. So far, the latter is winning. I would probably give up on that and look at moving on now. Your problem is where you work. You also probably don't need to move into something like machine-learning or building the space shuttle to find something interesting. It's actually pretty easy to find even relatively mundane work rewarding if your workplace isn't poo poo.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:29
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Thermopyle posted:All of those complaints sound like complaints about where you work, not complaints about your tech stack. I second this. I guess you should stop calling yourself a monkey too, maybe the work your are doing seem ape-ish but you are not.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:36
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I always thought that Java is a good language that somehow must've had a gypsy curse put on it, because it seemingly compels engineers to build the most difficult and impenetrable frameworks for even the simplest problems. Like the basic language features and core API are really solid and relatively easy to understand and use, yet people keep inventing poo poo like Spring and Jboss and any of the other 4000 ORMs that get cranked out every year, with it's parades of FactoryAbstractFactoryReceiverPrinterFactory, each requiring a 450 line poorly documented XML configuration file to even start up. Classpaths are admittedly a pain, but maven has mostly solved that, or just use a basic shell script and sane project layouts.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:39
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Got contacted for a position where the bottom end of the salary range is what I make now and the top is about 10k lower than what I want but still a 20k raise. However, the requirements seem steep for this range (I "meet them all" - I just feel like someone at this level should be getting paid a bit more especially because it's a known start-up in a major city). Do I I go through the process or just bail?
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Sep 27, 2016 18:59
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