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Uncle Boogeyman posted:This is a meaningless term to me so I guess to each his own. By iconic I mean that they are so memorable that they define that character archetype in my mind going forward. So when I think of a slimy corporate stooge, Burke instantly pops into my mind. Same with Hudson, when I think of a bullshit artist who panicks at the drop of a hat, he's the first example I'd give.There's really nobody like that in Alien 3 in my opinion, and again, I've looked. I'm OCD about this kind of thing I can't just skip it, if I watch one I usually have to watch them all. I get what you're trying to say, that the characters in Alien 3 were purposely designed not to stand out in the way I'm describing. I just don't find the result to be very entertaining. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 16:32
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Basebf555 posted:By iconic I mean that they are so memorable that they define that character archetype in my mind going forward. So when I think of a slimy corporate stooge, Burke instantly pops into my mind. Same with Hudson, when I think of a bullshit artist who panicks at the drop of a hat, he's the first example I'd give.There's really nobody like that in Alien 3 in my opinion, and again, I've looked. I'm OCD about this kind of thing I can't just skip it, if I watch one I usually have to watch them all. By this definition though, "iconic" doesn't sound any different from "clichéd." The actors are good, but those characters are stock types, and certainly not ones that Aliens invented. Which is not necessarily a bad thing; I'm not someone who necessarily takes "clichéd" as a negative, but neither do I take it as a positive. So something being "iconic" for me is pretty divorced from its actual quality. In these conversations, "iconic" always seems to mean either "it is/was a big pop culture talking point" or "I grew up with it," neither of which tell me much about whether it's any good. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 16:35
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:By this definition though, "iconic" doesn't sound any different from "clichéd." The actors are good, but those characters are stock types, and certainly not ones that Aliens invented. I mean iconic in the personal sense, not related to pop culture, just my own experiences. Sure, you could reduce it to "I grew up with it", but I grew up with both Aliens and Alien 3 both being run constantly on television, so neither had the advantage over the other in that way. But yes, Burke for instance is the first really memorable example of that archetype that I encountered in a movie. Alien 3 had just as much of a chance to make that kind of impression on me and it never did.
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Sep 26, 2016 16:40
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Basebf555 posted:I mean iconic in the personal sense, not related to pop culture, just my own experiences. Sure, you could reduce it to "I grew up with it", but I grew up with both Aliens and Alien 3 both being run constantly on television, so neither had the advantage over the other in that way. But yes, Burke for instance is the first really memorable example of that archetype that I encountered in a movie. Alien 3 had just as much of a chance to make that kind of impression on me and it never did. Out of curiosity, what order did you see them in? Oh also just to chime in on one more thing: Charles Dance is not any more "wasted" in Alien 3 than John Hurt is in Alien.
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Sep 26, 2016 16:42
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Out of curiosity, what order did you see them in? I honestly can't remember. I probably saw bits and pieces of all of them before I ever really sat down and properly watched them. ^^^^Oh absolutely, John Hurt is definitely wasted in Alien, but its got three or four more memorable characters that make up for that. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 16:46
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Basebf555 posted:I honestly can't remember. I probably saw bits and pieces of all of them before I never really sat down and properly watched them. I think I went 2, 1, 3. I think a lot of people's favorite is Aliens because for a whole generation it's both the first one they saw and one of the first R-rated movies they saw, the same way Terminator 2 is everyone's favorite Terminator.
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Sep 26, 2016 16:47
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I think a lot of people's favorite is Aliens because for a whole generation it's both the first one they saw and one of the first R-rated movies they saw, the same way Terminator 2 is everyone's favorite Terminator. There's definitely a lot of that going on, but at the same time there's a reason why Aliens made such a huge impact. The archetypal characters made it very accessible to audiences, similarly to the space truckers from the original, and Cameron's direction made it such a streamlined, well oiled machine that so many people were able to enjoy it beyond just sci-fi fans. I don't think it deserves to be downgraded just because it was massively successful. While I agree that Alien 3 isn't quite as bad as its reputation, these are things that it either wasn't able to do as well as Aliens, or didn't even attempt. Because of that the bottom line is its just a less entertaining movie. Maybe a more interesting one to talk about, but not as fun to watch and rewatch.
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Sep 26, 2016 16:57
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As I mentioned earlier, I did finally get to see the Assembly Cut and, yes, it's much better. But either version of the film is just very dour - there's almost nothing fun in Alien3, from my perspective at least. It's a cool movie, especially the proper version of it, but it's very grim in a way none of the other three is.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:00
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oh I'm not saying Aliens deserves to be graded down, I'm saying Alien 3 deserves to be graded up.Apollodorus posted:As I mentioned earlier, I did finally get to see the Assembly Cut and, yes, it's much better. But either version of the film is just very dour - there's almost nothing fun in Alien3, from my perspective at least. It's a cool movie, especially the proper version of it, but it's very grim in a way none of the other three is. This is definitely a big part of why it gets such a negative reception, but it's also a big part of why I love the movie. Fincher disowning it or no, you can definitely see him sewing the seeds of Seven in that movie. I agree that it's not a fun movie, but fun is not at all what it's aiming for. But then I also wouldn't really describe any of the Alien movies as "fun". Even Aliens, the most conventional crowd-pleaser of the three, feels more about being intense than being fun. Alien: Resurrection tried to be fun and we all know how that turned out. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 17:05
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Yeah I didn't find Resurrection as offensive as some people seem to, though it's nowhere near as good as the first three. I totally get it with Alien3, though. It's good, and tonally distinct from the previous one. If they'd been able to get their poo poo sorted in production, I think it would have been even better.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:23
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Basebf555 posted:By iconic I mean that they are so memorable that they define that character archetype in my mind going forward. So when I think of a slimy corporate stooge, Burke instantly pops into my mind. Same with Hudson, when I think of a bullshit artist who panicks at the drop of a hat, he's the first example I'd give.There's really nobody like that in Alien 3 in my opinion, and again, I've looked. I'm OCD about this kind of thing I can't just skip it, if I watch one I usually have to watch them all. Anytime there's a typical guy that wants to be in command that gets shunted to the side in a crisis, but hangs on desperately to 'nope, the authorities said this! There's no way they'd lie to us!' then is just completely devastated by the reality of things, '85', the warden's assistant comes to mind for me sometimes. Might just be the earliest example in a film I recall, but it made an impression to me. When everything's gone to poo poo, his 'authority' being ignored, and their only possible plan left is to try and bait it into the leadworks, he was like, the only one that didn't have a fatalistic/nihilistic 'well, let's kill this thing; whatever', he doubled down and hid to wait for WY to show up because he had absolute faith in them, even refusing to say 'hey the planet's contaminated, nuke us from orbit!' to send the ships away, because he was the only one with hope left. Then his resolve absolutely disintegrating when he realized the truth was just kind of depressing. I also always liked his outburst 'You keep telling me how dumb I am. Well I'm smart enough not to have a life sentence on this rock!'
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Sep 26, 2016 17:39
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I think I went 2, 1, 3. As someone who physically sat through Alien 3 in the theater it was such an utterly disappointing waste of cast and production value that I pretty much wrote off the franchise. I hadn't bothered to see any release (theatrical or otherwise) of an Alien-related movie until Prometheus (which I loved) - all on the bad faith of Alien 3.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:40
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Paolomania posted:As someone who physically sat through Alien 3 in the theater it was such an utterly disappointing waste of cast and production value that I pretty much wrote off the franchise. I hadn't bothered to see any release (theatrical or otherwise) of an Alien-related movie until Prometheus (which I loved) - all on the bad faith of Alien 3. Which is weird, because Alien 3 is great.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:42
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Which is weird, because Alien 3 is great. If you like overwrought, predictable religious metaphor that takes itself way too seriously and all at a plodding pace. This is why I like Prometheus, which has the levity to spew a hot load of black goo on anything self-serious when dealing with the same subject matter.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:50
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I can understand people not liking the theatrical cut but Assembly Cut is good.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:50
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Baronjutter posted:I can understand people not liking the theatrical cut but Assembly Cut is good. The Theatrical Cut does botch some things, but honestly even in that form it's an A- at worst. Paolomania posted:If you like overwrought, predictable religious metaphor that takes itself way too seriously I do, I really do.
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Sep 26, 2016 17:53
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People poo poo on A3s characters but the first few deaths in Aliens are all complete non characters who we literally never see. Seriously when do we ever see crowe or weirzbowski in the film before they die? I assume one of them actually gets a line of dialog with Frost in the dropship (only because i cant match that voice with any other known character) but you never see his face.LadyPictureShow posted:Anytime there's a typical guy that wants to be in command that gets shunted to the side in a crisis, but hangs on desperately to 'nope, the authorities said this! There's no way they'd lie to us!' then is just completely devastated by the reality of things, '85', the warden's assistant comes to mind for me sometimes. Might just be the earliest example in a film I recall, but it made an impression to me. 85 owns hes one of my favorite Alien/s/3 characters. Paolomania posted:If you like overwrought, predictable religious metaphor that takes itself way too seriously and all at a plodding pace. What do you mean when you say it takes itself too seriously?
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Sep 26, 2016 19:07
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Paolomania posted:If you like overwrought, predictable religious metaphor that takes itself way too seriously and all at a plodding pace. This is why I like Prometheus, which has the levity to spew a hot load of black goo on anything self-serious when dealing with the same subject matter. Projecting much? 3 had just as much subtext as Prometheus, and just as much levity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCTd1XHbliU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_mlCe_yKXk I wish I could find the "You can say poo poo, it ain't against God" scene, that's a good one too. Or when Morse and that other guy run into each other in the tunnels and start fake scaring each other to cut the tension. Alien 3 came out in 1992, I saw it opening day when I was 12 and enjoyed it. I even remember going to Tower Records after the movie and stumbling across Giger's Necronomicon for the very first time and being awe struck by the artwork. I remember the teaser too, but didn't give a poo poo about colonial marines or EARTH WAR or whatever. I was just glad we got to visit a new part of this universe. Also, it goes Charles S. Dutton > Yaphet Kotto > Apone. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 19:10
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I don't even think the religious/apocalyptic metaphor of Alien 3 is that much more on the nose than the Vietnam metaphor of Aliens.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:21
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I don't even think the religious/apocalyptic metaphor of Alien 3 is that much more on the nose than the Vietnam metaphor of Aliens. Agreed on that one, I wouldn't call either one subtle.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:23
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Basebf555 posted:Agreed on that one, I wouldn't call either one subtle. Not to seem like I'm making GBS threads on Aliens too much, because I do love it, but that bit in the extended cut with Hudson rattling off all their weapons on the drop ship is awful.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:25
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Not to seem like I'm making GBS threads on Aliens too much, because I do love it, but that bit in the extended cut with Hudson rattling off all their weapons on the drop ship is awful. Aliens has flaws, for sure. The part at the beginning where Vasquez and Drake do their bro shake and he says something like "Vasquez, you're just too bad!" makes me cringe every time. All of the early scenes with the marines are a little awkward actually, and I've never been much of a fan of Apone the way some people are.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:30
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Basebf555 posted:Aliens has flaws, for sure. The part at the beginning where Vasquez and Drake do their bro shake and he says something like "Vasquez, you're just too bad!" makes me cringe every time. All of the early scenes with the marines are a little awkward actually, and I've never been much of a fan of Apone the way some people are. I don't mind that stuff, pretty much all of my problems are with the extended cut. Actually, both Aliens and Alien 3 are movies without a perfect cut in my mind. Aliens extended cut's additions are mostly bad, but I would keep Ripley finding out about her daughter, and the Alien 3 extended cut additions are mostly very good, but i much prefer the the theatrical version of the alien's birth.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:34
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zVxTeflon posted:People poo poo on A3s characters but the first few deaths in Aliens are all complete non characters who we literally never see. Seriously when do we ever see crowe or weirzbowski in the film before they die? I assume one of them actually gets a line of dialog with Frost in the dropship (only because i cant match that voice with any other known character) but you never see his face.
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Sep 26, 2016 21:31
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I like Alien 3 a lot more than Aliens.
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Sep 26, 2016 21:35
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I remember several reviews for Alien 3 (back in the day) complaining the prisoners were indistinguishable and uninteresting, the comment I remember best is someone saying they went expecting an alien movie and got Friday the 13th in space.
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Sep 26, 2016 21:40
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david_a posted:There was an old joke site called The Wierzbowski Hunters dedicated to documenting every frame that the lovable lug appeared in. It, uh, wasn't many. Oh man i just looked this up and i found a wierzbowski hunters facebook group that had behind the scenes type stuff that the actual actor who played him posted on. Turns out he died back in june. Wierzbowski...sound off..... 
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Sep 26, 2016 22:11
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ruddiger posted:Projecting much? 3 had just as much subtext as Prometheus, and just as much levity. I'm one of those who ranks them Alien-Aliens-Alien3-Resurrection but that "gently caress!!!" scene in A3 is probably my favorite single scene in all the films. It was an unexpected moment of hilarity in what had been a pretty bleak film to that point, and his squeezy ball bouncing in the puddle of his blood and viscera just pushes it over the top for me.
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Sep 26, 2016 22:38
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zVxTeflon posted:Oh man i just looked this up and i found a wierzbowski hunters facebook group that had behind the scenes type stuff that the actual actor who played him posted on. Turns out he died back in june. Wierzbowski buried?
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Sep 27, 2016 00:10
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504 posted:I remember several reviews for Alien 3 (back in the day) complaining the prisoners were indistinguishable and uninteresting, the comment I remember best is someone saying they went expecting an alien movie and got Friday the 13th in space. This is a pretty valid description of the theatrical cut.
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Sep 27, 2016 00:14
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Word. The AC was great, I really enjoyed that. I watched it only fairly recently believing nothing could improve the original cut I was unlucky enough to watch.
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Sep 27, 2016 00:33
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The theatrical cut of Alien 3 is pretty bad considering that there are people that simply just disappear with no mention of them ever again. Also, this is what you get when you can't let go of how Alien 3 began. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mquByeLRYNM
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Sep 27, 2016 00:41
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blackguy32 posted:The theatrical cut of Alien 3 is pretty bad considering that there are people that simply just disappear with no mention of them ever again. From 1:00-onward you could just play Yakety Sax.
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Sep 27, 2016 00:49
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:From 1:00-onward you could just play Yakety Sax. Checks out. http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=h...Name=blackguy32
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Sep 27, 2016 01:05
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Basebf555 posted:Aliens has flaws, for sure. The part at the beginning where Vasquez and Drake do their bro shake and he says something like "Vasquez, you're just too bad!" makes me cringe every time. All of the early scenes with the marines are a little awkward actually, and I've never been much of a fan of Apone the way some people are.
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Sep 27, 2016 03:57
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I always saw that line as more joking like "you sure did drop an easy burn on that dumbass"
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Sep 27, 2016 04:28
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Slugworth posted:It's only cringe worthy if you're looking for them to be super cool badasses though. If you're viewing them as I believe they're being depicted - as meatheads - that line is pitch perfect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV1_aDIV7v4
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Sep 27, 2016 04:33
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Apollodorus posted:As I mentioned earlier, I did finally get to see the Assembly Cut and, yes, it's much better. But either version of the film is just very dour - there's almost nothing fun in Alien3, from my perspective at least. It's a cool movie, especially the proper version of it, but it's very grim in a way none of the other three is. That's not really 'Alien3's fault, and I give it a lot more credit for bucking expectations and going full-bore down the rabbit hole. zVxTeflon posted:Oh man i just looked this up and i found a wierzbowski hunters facebook group that had behind the scenes type stuff that the actual actor who played him posted on. Turns out he died back in june.
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Sep 27, 2016 05:46
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Slugworth posted:It's only cringe worthy if you're looking for them to be super cool badasses though. If you're viewing them as I believe they're being depicted - as meatheads - that line is pitch perfect. It's more than that - at that place in time, the "woman who is just as physically intimidating as the men" thing had barely been played much, and not straight - and it was a great introduction to that character. A big part of Aliens is seeing it in 86, in that climate, as compared to the 90s or 2000s. There were a ton of super jarring/progressive things in it that made it feel different from anything else at the time, and a lot were things like Vasquez the "butch" probably-straight woman and such.
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Sep 27, 2016 05:53
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Darko posted:It's more than that - at that place in time, the "woman who is just as physically intimidating as the men" thing had barely been played much, and not straight - and it was a great introduction to that character. A big part of Aliens is seeing it in 86, in that climate, as compared to the 90s or 2000s. There were a ton of super jarring/progressive things in it that made it feel different from anything else at the time, and a lot were things like Vasquez the "butch" probably-straight woman and such. God bless capitalism. 
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Sep 27, 2016 06:17
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