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The prequels are bad. Nobody should watch them. And they should not be discussed, or hold any water or relevance in relation to the OT. The prequels did not exist in ANY form, including lucas' mind, and thus are completely independent in all ways from the OT.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:15
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Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:19
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Apollodorus posted:Depicted through likable well-acted characters delivering snappy, memorable dialogue - not Jar Jar Binks calling for a vote of emergency powers to the chancellor Okay, but the important line of dialogue in this subplot is delivered by Padme, and is supplemented by Ian McDiarmid's acting. Jar-Jar is in no way the focus of what is going on when it comes to the fall of the Republic. Other great lines from the prequels which highlight some of the serious themes: "Well if droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?" "Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic life-form?" "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." Basebf555 posted:For people who are of a certain age, and I think the forum is mostly made up of them, major series like Star Wars or Alien or Friday the 13th etc. were kind of just absorbed through osmosis because they were on cable t.v. nonstop for our entire childhood. Someone asked me yesterday in the Alien thread which movie I'd seen first, and I can't even say because when I was 6 or 7 years old I didn't give a poo poo about whether I was watching Aliens or Alien3. I'd frequently pick up movies halfway through and watch without really having a handle on the plot. If it had a monster or spaceships or explosions I was going to watch it but that's about as discerning as I got. I remember watching Aliens and Terminator 2 before I saw the originals. I guess the sequels were action films and the originals were horror, which makes them more palatable.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:23
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Phi230 posted:The prequels are bad. Nobody should watch them. So what you're saying is that if a piece of art is created after another piece of art, its impossible for the more recent one to inform or elaborate on the previous one? That's ridiculous.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:24
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Phi230 hasn't been the first poster to close their eyes and cover their ears over the prequels, this isn't the first time we've had this discussion, and I really don't know how much more blood we can wring from this stone.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:28
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I am just constantly puzzled by people who refuse to acknowledge that the prequel trilogy a) would not have been made had the originals not been successful, b) were informed by the original trilogy, not the other way around, and c) would not have been at all successful on their own merits if they weren't attached to an already-popular IP. Like, why is it so important that we ignore everything we know about how time works (i.e. that 1980 happened before 2005) and pretend that a scene in one film is supposed to rely on our knowledge of a film that wouldn't come out for a quarter century? Learning that Vader is Luke's father is a cool plot twist. Knowing it for 4.5 movies in advance - which I contend almost no one posting in this thread actually did - ruins that plot twist.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:32
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Serf posted:
"Dellow felegates." 
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Sep 27, 2016 19:37
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The father twist would still kind of work if they could have resisted showing the Emperor pick up Anakin's fried body and the scene where he turns into Vader.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:37
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If the other Jedi had never found out about Anakin's heel turn, and thought Vader was like a secret apprentice or something, then yes that would have made the last prequel less bad.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:40
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I'm pretty sure the prequels did exist in Lucas's brain in some form, you know, cause stuff like "clone wars" was said, and people seemed to know that obi wan fought Vader in a volcano way before episode 1 existed, so that last part just isn't true
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Sep 27, 2016 19:44
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Apollodorus posted:If the other Jedi had never found out about Anakin's heel turn, and thought Vader was like a secret apprentice or something, then yes that would have made the last prequel less bad. It'd be pretty logical to think Obi-Wan killed Anakin and Vader was a different apprentice that was trained between 3 and 4 if this was the last we saw of Anakin in 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_YozYt8l-g Of course, some people would be able to figure it out but overall it would still work better than what they went with. El Burbo posted:I'm pretty sure the prequels did exist in Lucas's brain in some form, you know, cause stuff like "clone wars" was said, and people seemed to know that obi wan fought Vader in a volcano way before episode 1 existed, so that last part just isn't true The type of fan that knew about the volcano duel would be able to guess the twist, but that's also the type of fan to read loads of Star Wars material. (Super fans.) I should have said it would preserve the twist for future people who just watch the movies and don't obsess over them. A person watching the movies in order for the first time (probably a kid that somehow doesn't know the I am your father quote everyone knows) could still be shocked in ESB this way. Spacebump fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 19:44
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ESB is a good film that would not have been made had the original not been successful, was informed by the original film, and would not have been at all successful on its own merits if it wasn't attached to an already-popular film (the Darth Vader reveal's emotional impact depends very much on the few short scenes in ANH when Luke, Owen, and Ben talk about Luke's father). If you watch in episodic order without outside knowledge, then the big reveal is in episode 3, when it turns out not only that Palpatine is Sidious (which was very heavily telegraphed and not hard to spot, although naïve viewers routinely miss it) but that the whole war was a trap designed to lead to the extermination of all Jedi. And then we watch episodes 4 and 5 with a heavy dose of dramatic irony, since we know the terrible truth about Anakin while Luke and Leia are blissfully ignorant. Conversely, if you see the originals first, you get the Darth Vader surprise in episode 5 and the twin reveal in episode 6, and you get to watch the prequels knowing that every one of our heroes is destined for failure. In this format, the dramatic irony can inform our interpretation of events. For example, knowing what happens in advance makes the moments where Obi-Wan is being a total hypocrite more salient, and it helps highlight the complacency of the Jedi.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:45
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Apollodorus posted:Like, why is it so important that we ignore everything we know about how time works (i.e. that 1980 happened before 2005) and pretend that a scene in one film is supposed to rely on our knowledge of a film that wouldn't come out for a quarter century? George Lucas made the OT, so he knew what was in them when he went to make the prequels. So its possible, even likely, that he had thought about certain things during those years between 1983 and 1998 and decided to craft the prequels in such a way that they reframe certain parts of the OT. This kind of thing happens all the time in filmmaking, novel writing, television shows, poetry, music, and really any art form you can name.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:47
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Apollodorus posted:I am just constantly puzzled by people who refuse to acknowledge that the prequel trilogy a) would not have been made had the originals not been successful, b) were informed by the original trilogy, not the other way around, and c) would not have been at all successful on their own merits if they weren't attached to an already-popular IP. Where has anyone contested any of this? The only shaky point here is B, because from what I've read and listened to Lucas had a huge sprawling story in mind before filming anything, so sussing out which parts influenced what from the beginning is pretty tough. Also, the OT informs the PT, but because Lucas made both and clearly put a lot of work into both trilogies, they reference and inform each other constantly. The trilogies enrich one another. Apollodorus posted:Like, why is it so important that we ignore everything we know about how time works (i.e. that 1980 happened before 2005) and pretend that a scene in one film is supposed to rely on our knowledge of a film that wouldn't come out for a quarter century? Again, these are things that you are imagining. Lucas has recontextualized the reveal from ESB in such a way that you can watch the movies in either order and the scene still means something.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:58
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Apollodorus posted:c) would not have been at all successful on their own merits if they weren't attached to an already-popular IP. I don't think this is at all true, or for that matter, provable. They very likely would not have been as successful, but they might actually be better regarded, given how much of their criticism is predicated on how they're different from the original films.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:59
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Yeah, I also think c) is pretty shaky. How successful would they have been if a bunch of dudes with their special headcanon version of the story never attended, never went home and shouted at the sky at the horrors perpetrated against their childhood? How would they have been if people went in without expectation? Schwarzwald posted:They very likely would not have been as successful, but they might actually be better regarded, given how much of their criticism is predicated on how they're different from the original films. They are really different. And so many Star Wars fans could not wrap their heads around different -- they craved more of the same, which is why that's exactly what they got in TFA, complete with masked villain and Death Star and trench run and moving death of old man at the end.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:13
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Spacebump posted:It'd be pretty logical to think Obi-Wan killed Anakin and Vader was a different apprentice that was trained between 3 and 4 if this was the last we saw of Anakin in 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_YozYt8l-g Oh sorry haha I meant to put that as a quote to that prequel hating guy. Sorry m8
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Sep 27, 2016 20:19
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Wait, people didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious? I mean I get that the Jedi didn't see it because they are written as being colossal morons, but maybe there should have been some clue that they were the same person when they were played by the same actor, as you can clearly see from the first scenes of TPM.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:21
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Apollodorus posted:Wait, people didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious? I mean I get that the Jedi didn't see it because they are written as being colossal morons, but maybe there should have been some clue that they were the same person when they were played by the same actor, as you can clearly see from the first scenes of TPM. You would probably be surprised to know how many people were surprised.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:31
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Apollodorus posted:Wait, people didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious? Neither character is very prominent in TPM, and you never get a good look at Sidious. I don't think it'd be very difficult to dismiss Palpatine as "just some politician."
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Sep 27, 2016 20:31
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Apollodorus posted:Wait, people didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious? I mean I get that the Jedi didn't see it because they are written as being colossal morons, but maybe there should have been some clue that they were the same person when they were played by the same actor, as you can clearly see from the first scenes of TPM. Assume for a second that you haven't seen the OT (or at least ROTJ). There's nothing in TPM that explicitly says "hey this Senator is actually this dude in the robes". People don't look at who's cast as who for a bit part. In AOTC it's also not really clear at all, and the only time he pops up is as essentially a deleted scene at the end with Dooku. It's only with ROTS that you get him acting evil with ordering Dooku's execution and then everything about him revealing himself to Anakin. computer parts fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 20:39
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computer parts posted:Assume for a second that you haven't seen the OT (or at least ROTJ). Even if you have, I don't think Palpatine is explicitly named, except maybe in the credits.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:41
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Apollodorus posted:Wait, people didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious? I mean I get that the Jedi didn't see it because they are written as being colossal morons, but maybe there should have been some clue that they were the same person when they were played by the same actor, as you can clearly see from the first scenes of TPM. I don't see how this connection could really be made for most people. I saw it as a kid, like the originals, and the man disguised by a robe and crappy hologram bore no resemblance to Palpatine at the end. He even puts on a nice croaking evil voice to complete it.
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Sep 27, 2016 21:02
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I saw it as a kid too and could tell immediately (both visually and aurally) that it was the same actor. But OTOH Apollodorus fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 21:07
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Serf posted:I don't see how this connection could really be made for most people. I saw it as a kid, like the originals, and the man disguised by a robe and crappy hologram bore no resemblance to Palpatine at the end. He even puts on a nice croaking evil voice to complete it. I distinctly remember arguing with my dad about it when I was six. I swore up and down that Senator Palpatine and the scary man in the black robe were definitely different people and his idea that Palpatine was the bad guy was insane. I figured it out at the end of AOTC when I was almost nine. RBA Starblade posted:"Dellow felegates." Somehow, incredibly, thinking about this line has me laughing like an idiot. I think twitter may have broken me. Zoran fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 21:20
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Zoran posted:I distinctly remember arguing with my dad about it when I was six. I swore up and down that Senator Palpatine and the scary man in the black robe were definitely different people and his idea that Palpatine was the bad guy was insane. I remember reading it in a magazine back when those still existed. Not the most dramatic way to find out. My brother found out the way you did, which was a lot more enjoyable to watch. Apollodorus posted:I saw it as a kid too and could tell immediately (both visually and aurally) that it was the same actor. But OTOH 
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Sep 27, 2016 21:24
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I'm jealous of those that were young enough to not know about Palpatine. I was too young to get the full effect of the "I am your father" scene, by the time I saw the movie I already knew the twist because it was impossible not to know. Then, for the prequels I was too old to be fooled by Palpatine because I'd been a Star Wars fan for 10 years already.
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Sep 27, 2016 21:27
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I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure I didn't figure out who Palpatine was until AOTC.quote:Somehow, incredibly, thinking about this line has me laughing like an idiot. 
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Sep 27, 2016 21:29
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Apollodorus posted:I saw it as a kid too and could tell immediately (both visually and aurally) that it was the same actor. But OTOH That's impressive because I don't think you actually get a look at his face. For my part, I did know ahead of time because the group of kids I hung around with after school where big into the Star Wars comics, and the Emperor's name being "Palpatine" was just a known fact. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 21:30
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 Zoran posted:I distinctly remember arguing with my dad about it when I was six. I swore up and down that Senator Palpatine and the scary man in the black robe were definitely different people and his idea that Palpatine was the bad guy was insane. You sounded like a really stupid kid. So, basically a sorta typical 6 year old, I guess.
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Sep 27, 2016 21:31
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This is the only point we see Sideous in TPM without being obstructed by hologram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gug3R-bKt9U In retrospect you can kind of hear the voice is the same, but I think people were distracted by Darth Maul Saying Words. Here's the AOTC scene too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIdb-et-6sM
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Sep 27, 2016 21:40
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Apollodorus posted:Serious question - is there anyone posting in this thread who actually saw The Phantom Menace first? I watched it second vOv
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Sep 27, 2016 21:51
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Schwarzwald posted:That's impressive because I don't think you actually get a look at his face. You see his mouth, nose, and chin, which looked clearly the same to me.  Also, it's Ian MacDiarmid delivering the lines, and lets face it , he's no Billy West when it comes to voicing different characters.e: I mean, seriously, can you not tell that this is the same guy who plays Palpatine?  I guess that was uncalled for snark; but I was really surprised when I was talking with my friend about how hyped I was to go see AotC and he speculated "so maybe this is the movie where Darth Sideous gets Palpatine to turn to the Dark Side." It was, at the time, inconceivable to me that people didn't realize they were the same character.
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Sep 27, 2016 21:58
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Apollodorus posted:But OTOH I guess this explains why nobody who works at The Daily Bugle can tell one of their co-workers is actually an alien übermensch with glasses.
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Sep 27, 2016 22:25
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Apollodorus posted:You see his mouth, nose, and chin, which looked clearly the same to me. 
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Sep 27, 2016 23:08
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El Burbo posted:I'm pretty sure the prequels did exist in Lucas's brain in some form, you know, cause stuff like "clone wars" was said, and people seemed to know that obi wan fought Vader in a volcano way before episode 1 existed, so that last part just isn't true He didn't have, like, screenplays written obviously but did actually have fairly in-depth ideas about what they would be about for very long time. A lot of stuff changed of course but to say they just plain didn't exist in any recognizable form is easily refuted. This is the prologue to the novelization of A New Hope released in 1976: quote:ANOTHER galaxy, another time. As noted, it's not exactly what the prequels ended up being (for one thing, the role of the Emperor in the proceedings was changed in between the release of Star Wars and production of Empire and carried over to the eventual prequels), but it's remarkably in-depth and close for something that was envisioned so long ago. The backstory was always about a Republic which rotted away from within due to greed and complacency, aided and abetted by the machinations of power-seekers within the government and massive commerce guilds. And it's not like it would even be a bad thing if he didn't have so much of it planned out already. It's just that he actually did happen to, to at least some extent. It's just the truth. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 23:29
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Apollodorus posted:I guess that was uncalled for snark; but I was really surprised when I was talking with my friend about how hyped I was to go see AotC and he speculated "so maybe this is the movie where Darth Sideous gets Palpatine to turn to the Dark Side." It was, at the time, inconceivable to me that people didn't realize they were the same character. They pretty much tell you at the end of the first one, if you didn't know before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VEC6HqUCfo&t=51s
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Sep 27, 2016 23:31
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Basebf555 posted:George Lucas made the OT, so he knew what was in them when he went to make the prequels. So its possible, even likely, that he had thought about certain things during those years between 1983 and 1998 and decided to craft the prequels in such a way that they reframe certain parts of the OT. For Christ's sake, the originals were constantly changing, even as they were shot. Major plot points came, went, or were altered on the fly. To insist that Lucas didn't have everything planned out and therefore the prequels are bogus is to dismiss the originals, since he didn't have those planned out in intricate detail either.
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Sep 27, 2016 23:34
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:They pretty much tell you at the end of the first one, if you didn't know before. Keeping Sidious's identity a "secret" was always just a playful conceit. It was done for the benefit of casual viewers and children. Obviously if you were a devotee of the series (or even just paid enough attention to the movies) it wouldn't be a surprise, and it was never really supposed to be. I mean, the movies are already firmly in Superman/Clark Kent territory with Palpatine's cunning disguise being nothing but a robe which covers the top part of his face combined with a croaky voice.
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Sep 27, 2016 23:38
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Basebf555 posted:I'm jealous of those that were young enough to not know about Palpatine. I was too young to get the full effect of the "I am your father" scene, by the time I saw the movie I already knew the twist because it was impossible not to know. Then, for the prequels I was too old to be fooled by Palpatine because I'd been a Star Wars fan for 10 years already. I knew who Palpatine was because I read the Star Wars novelization when it came out, and the prologue says that the Emperor's name is Palpatine. So twist killed in the mid-70s for me. 
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Sep 27, 2016 23:40
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