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Endless Mike posted:Do you think that if they had Ben Kingsley with magic rings shooting fire people would have complained? The issue is less "he's not Chinese" and more "he's literally a completely different character in absolutely every way" So why are you okay with Baron Zemo in Civil War? Why is it bad a character is different?
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Sep 28, 2016 18:44
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There's no movie that says "j/k the real Zemo is hanging around".
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Sep 28, 2016 18:45
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Endless Mike posted:But what's racist about this? Did Tony grow his hair out? Oh no wait, he has really long fingernails -- gotta be The Mandarin.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:46
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Aphrodite posted:There's no movie that says "j/k the real Zemo is hanging around". That short was made in response to the people whining about The Mandarin, it wasn't the cause of it.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:47
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ImpAtom posted:So why are you okay with Baron Zemo in Civil War?
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Sep 28, 2016 18:51
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Endless Mike posted:At what point did I say I had a problem with Mandarin and not the exact opposite? The part where you repeatedly went "I don't get what's wrong with it! Do you think people would have complained if (X!) They're just upset that he isn't like he is in the comics!"
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Sep 28, 2016 18:51
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I don't follow Iron Man comics so I'm genuinely curious: If you take away all Yellow Peril aspects, and make Mandarin a supervillain who is incidentally Asian, who is he? He has power rings, and he wants to conquer the world. That's not really a character.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:54
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't follow Iron Man comics so I'm genuinely curious: If you take away all Yellow Peril aspects, and make Mandarin a supervillain who is incidentally Asian, who is he? He has power rings, and he wants to conquer the world. That's not really a character. Yeah, basically the only real defining features of The Mandarin are his heavy Yellow Peril stuff and his rings. The original Iron Man actually hinted at an updated Mandarin by having the Rings as a terrorist cell instead but the original Iron Man was also kinda heavy on the Scary Evil Foreigner Terrorist thing. (Which is again why IM3's Mandarin being "a nonsensical meaningless mishmash of scary images thrown together by a corporation' was really dead-on.)
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Sep 28, 2016 18:58
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I know I've brought this up before, at least two other times that I can think of, but nobody's ever really said anything about it: What's wrong with wanting to see MCU Tony fight an obvious magic-based enemy, something way out of his depth, that he can't come to grips with in his usual science-y style? In his standalone films, he's only ever fought other science guys, and generally has beat them by showing that his science is the stronger science, but he doesn't really fight the straight up magical very often/at all, depending on where you put Scarlet Witch or Thor on the spectrum. And considering what kind of a breakdown he's had dealing with his alien problem in IM3/Avengers 2, having him go up against something that straight up cannot possibly be explained even as sufficiently advanced technology or mutant weirdness would be an interesting character arc. Personally, I don't care if they call him the Mandarin or whatever, but a dude with ten magical rings throwing him through the wringer with poo poo that he is not and can't possibly be prepared for would be pretty great. My familiarity with the comics Mandarin is pretty nonexistant, but I love the idea of it in the MCU, for the same reasons I am really looking forward to Doctor Strange. I just want to see Tony fight someone like that and I think it'd make for a good movie, even if they detached it from all the other comics stuff, I don't really care.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:58
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ImpAtom posted:The part where you repeatedly went "I don't get what's wrong with it! Do you think people would have complained if (X!) They're just upset that he isn't like he is in the comics!" Halloween Jack posted:I don't follow Iron Man comics so I'm genuinely curious: If you take away all Yellow Peril aspects, and make Mandarin a supervillain who is incidentally Asian, who is he? He has power rings, and he wants to conquer the world. That's not really a character.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:00
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Even before his look and powers and origin, isn't his name already a bit of a minefield? Giving a Chinese character a supervillain name that is the word for a Chinese language seems dangerous. I wouldn't want a supervillain from Pakistan named The Punjabi.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:02
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He's named for Chinese officials of the Chinese Empire, not for the language. At least they didn't make him green. 
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Sep 28, 2016 19:06
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Endless Mike posted:So you chose to ignore the parts where I said I enjoyed him and am just asking questions? Are you upset because you don't actually have an answer to my questions and want to deflect? I did answer your questions. The Mandarin is a thinly-veiled Fu Manchu knockoff, with magic. His design, characterization, how he is used in stories, all of it. Even the 'modern' Mandarin you posted has the extra-long fingernails despite them trying to modernize the rest of his design. Rather than being someone who is Chinese, he is built around the idea of the Scary Foreign Chinese. (Thus the name.) Part of Marvel's attempts to modernize the character have been moving away from using that for that specific reason. And Marvel even had Fu Manchu himself though they've since moved away explicitly naming him wherever possible. Part of the reason The Mandarin is so rarely used is because they can't figure out what embodies the character besides "magic rings" and 'scary foreigner." Sometimes they try to update what scary foreigner he is (He's been Arab Terrorists and North Korea from time to time.) That's the entire character. "Scary foreigner" and "has magic rings."
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Sep 28, 2016 19:09
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Either way, I, personally, am more offended by the suggestion of a good actor who happens to be Asian being included in the MCU is immediately met with "yeah, he'd be a great Mandarin".
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Sep 28, 2016 19:09
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Endless Mike posted:He's named for Chinese officials of the Chinese Empire, not for the language. He's not named for it but that is his name. This is why I said it's dangerous because you're relying on people to make that distinction. Also, by using that definition you're getting back into why the character is Yellow Peril. Why call himself that if he's not fighting for the Chinese Empire to take over? Marvel already divorced Hydra and the Red Skull from Nazi Germany so I don't think they would go the other route with Mandy.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:11
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ImpAtom posted:And Marvel even had Fu Manchu himself though they've since moved away explicitly naming him wherever possible. Isn't that also due to legal reasons? e: Not to imply that anyone's actually burning up to use loving Fu Manchu except for Alan Moore. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 19:11
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Regardless, IM3 is a terrible movie that does a bunch of regressive awful horseshit, I trust it to handle an actual minority character as well as it handled PTSD and mental illness, which is to say horribly. There's enough reasons to hate IM3, the Mandarin stuff was more or less well-done (although the fact that they originally set up the Mandarin reveal to be Maya Hansen instead of Killian and swerved because of Perlmutter makes her character and arc virtually nonexistent and the movie just totally falls apart in its third act). It's really transparent, in retrospect, what the movie was building to and the movie just sort of flails after the Killian reveal into a boring punchfest.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:12
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Great now look what you bastards did.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:14
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Isn't that also due to legal reasons? Partially copyright and partially just avoiding "one of our characters is literally the son of a racist stereotype" stuff. Which is completely understandable for what you said.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:19
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Endless Mike posted:They seemed to do well enough making Red Skull just a German guy (DEFINITELY NOT A NAZI!!! ACTUALLY WORSE THAN NAZIS!!!) who wants to conquer the world. Also, incidentally, they don't call him, like, The Burgomeister and have him be just some German guy who wants to conquer the world, who fights with Death Dust. ImpAtom posted:The original Iron Man actually hinted at an updated Mandarin by having the Rings as a terrorist cell instead but the original Iron Man was also kinda heavy on the Scary Evil Foreigner Terrorist thing. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 19:20
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Aphrodite posted:Great now look what you bastards did. It's all a moot point anyway, isn't it. Before the MCU was around one of the big things fans hated was how villains in comic book movies were killed off. We now have the benefit of hindsight to see that most heroes might only get one one to three movies in total anyway that are in continuity with one another so why keep a villain around when you can avoid the problem of actual comics where every villain is immortal and immune to prison. We got The Mandarin once, there doesn't seem like there are going to be tons more Iron Man movies (i.e. chances to showcase Iron Man villains), so we're not ever getting a new Mandarin unless a big ol' reboot happens. And even if there were more Iron Man films it'd be better to do other villains instead of retreading the same ground.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:21
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Okay, minority villains are racist. Got it. Let's move to something more interesting like how BvS is the most colorful movie of all time.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:21
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I think Zemo might stick around. I found him a super-compelling anti-hero/villain in CW, despite his comparatively tiny screentime and lack of focus in comparison to the Cap v. Tony stuff, and I could see him continuing forward as either a Baron Zemo type (runs a villainous organization of some type that constantly antagonizes heroes) or I could see him continuing as an anti-hero if they do stuff like a Thunderbolts/Secret Avengers movie.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:24
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Endless Mike posted:Okay, minority villains are racist. Got it. Let's move to something more interesting like how BvS is the most colorful movie of all time. Yes, all minority villains are racist. That is a thing someone actually said. We're not discussing a specific villain but the mere idea of having a non-white villain.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:25
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ImpAtom posted:It's kind of tiring that mysteriously The Mandarin is the only one people complain about them changing. There's no giant fan outcry against the Nova Corps I was pissed about that actually. Why replace human rockets with a bunch of dudes in spaceships? So lame.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:27
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ImpAtom posted:It's kind of tiring that mysteriously The Mandarin is the only one people complain about them changing. There's no giant fan outcry against the Nova Corps, Drax, Baron Zemo, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, ect, ect. It's the one who got changed from a racist stereotype to criticizing a racist stereotype that ~mysteriously~ is the sticking point. ImpAtom posted:Part of the reason The Mandarin is so rarely used is because they can't figure out what embodies the character besides "magic rings" and 'scary foreigner." Sometimes they try to update what scary foreigner he is (He's been Arab Terrorists and North Korea from time to time.) Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 19:27
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Endless Mike posted:Okay, minority villains are racist. For what it's worth I think you're right and that this weird insistence via some segments that minority characters can never be illustrated in bad lights/be cast as villains because then It's Racist is ultimately harmful to minority representation in media as a whole. I just think Mandarin occupies the same space that The Ancient One does, where it's rooted in a legacy that's super duper racist and it'd be a tall loving order to translate that in a way that's comic-faithful while also being progressive. IM3, to its credit, played on that very perception as a commentary on instutionalized xenophobia in a way that was genuinely clever, while Doctor Strange seems more intent on utilizing one-for-one substitution while leaning into the more surreal aspects of the character.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:28
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I was pissed about that actually. Why replace human rockets with a bunch of dudes in spaceships? So lame. It'd probably be seen as a rip off of Green Lantern.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:29
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WickedHate posted:It'd probably be seen as a rip off of Green Lantern. Nobody remembers Green Lantern
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Sep 28, 2016 19:31
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Halloween Jack posted:One problem with that is that Dr. Doom is already North Korea. His North Korea is just located in Europe and looks like some vague in-between European part of Busch Gardens. Dr. Doom is a big problem for The Mandarin, yeah, in that most ways they try to update him end up making him Budget Dr. Doom, especially because Doom is TECH and SORCERERY too. Dr. Doom fills that niche hard and trying to find a way to give the Mandarin his own space without feeling like "we're using him because Doom ain't available" is hard. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 19:31
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The spaceships made for an interesting visual and contributed to make the world seem lived-in and distinct from the earth superhero shenanigans. A an entire police force of superheroes would devalue not only the rest of the characters in the MCU, but the setting of the film.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:32
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Yo just for future reference, if a poc tells you something is racist, you should probably believe them. They have more experience. That said we are not a monolith, but if someone says something like that is racist as gently caress, you should at the very least take a good look at the subject and really, really listen to what they are saying.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:34
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Nobody remembers Green Lantern I mean Green Lanterns in general, which are way better known-or were, anyway. It's pretty surreal that we now live in a world where Guardians of the Galaxy are A-list.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:33
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It's because watching Iron Man fighting a guy with magic rings would be way more cool than one-punching a goofy actor guy, while watching guys flying around shooting lasers isn't actually any more or less interesting than watching guys flying in space ships shooting lasers. It's really not difficult to figure out.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:35
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Nobody remembers Green Lantern I watched it last week and already couldn't tell you what happened in it
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Sep 28, 2016 19:37
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Endless Mike posted:It's because watching Iron Man fighting a guy with magic rings would be way more cool than one-punching a goofy actor guy, while watching guys flying around shooting lasers isn't actually any more or less interesting than watching guys flying in space ships shooting lasers. It's really not difficult to figure out. Nothing about Trevor Slattery is supposed to be "cool." What the gently caress is your fixation with that? The approach they took was really interesting and better served the story.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:37
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Lurdiak posted:The spaceships made for an interesting visual and contributed to make the world seem lived-in and distinct from the earth superhero shenanigans. A an entire police force of superheroes would devalue not only the rest of the characters in the MCU, but the setting of the film. you're telling me a bunch of spaceships is a more interesting visual for a sci-fi movie than a bunch of human rockets? C'mon.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:38
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Whatever faults there might be in IM3 I'm always going to think it's clever that they used Extremis to make Killian a fire breather as a nod to Mandarin's dragon origins.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:39
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They should've had Ben Kingsley wield 10 magic rings that make him become the villain in Avengers 2, then Stark could sever his fingers at the end and later defeat Thanos' gauntlet of 6 magic gems with his Iron Man glove of 10 magic rings in an intense thumb-wrestling match.
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Sep 28, 2016 19:46
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MrAristocrates posted:Nothing about Trevor Slattery is supposed to be "cool." What the gently caress is your fixation with that? The approach they took was really interesting and better served the story. What fixation? Are you conflating my posts with others or do you just have extraordinarily poor reading comprehension?
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Sep 28, 2016 19:47
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