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Baronjutter posted:Is there even an exact definition of alt-right? It seems to have blown up into this huge nebulous buzzword that anyone who feels remotely "progressive" can throw at anything or anyone they don't like. I've seen it on SA, in random facebook political arguments. If things get heated enough or someone says the wrong buzzword suddenly the accusations of "alt-right! you're alt-right!!" start to fly. It's seemingly morphing into a meaningless pejorative like "neo-liberal" imo it's basically younger people who 1) Don't really give a poo poo about economic issues, maybe a few leans left on them 2) Don't really give a poo poo about religion 3) Sees "political correctness" as the ultimate demon (even more than Islam) 4) Most of all, feel a sense of white victimhood, that the current state of American culture, especially in traditional liberal enclaves are de facto racist against white christians and are so concentrated on outdated racial struggles that they are naive about encroaching threats like Muslims 5) Misogyny, very much in line with their belief that blacks or browns have a leg up on whites, they believe that women have a leg up on men. In reality this is heavily related to their inability to get girlfriends in their teens/college years, leading them to believe that female has disproportionate power over men. In reality they are simply regressing to the mean of modern right wing movements, American conservatism is really quite unique in their ability to veil over white identity politics with libertarian economic ideas. The Alt-Right is only an American phenomenon because they would simply be "the right" or "the far right" in most European countries. Along with their counterparts in say Germany, this group of people as a political force has serious problem with attracting women or minorities into their fold because their ideas are so explicitly based on resentment of them. Typo fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 06:15
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Typo posted:imo it's basically younger people who I would agree with this I would add however that economically they tend to either be as you say, or else subscribe to a more extreme form of Libertarianism. That being Miesseian economics. As I see alot tend to like to fall back on sociopaths like Hans Herman Hoppe, Rothbard, or LVM.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:29
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alt-right === "People won't have sex with me. Waaaah! It's because of feminism and minorities! Waaaah!" That's all it is. Foreveralone Gamergater Incel NEET Neo-Nazis. They're just the establishment right but poor.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:36
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Crowsbeak posted:I would agree with this I would add however that economically they tend to either be as you say, or else subscribe to a more extreme form of Libertarianism. That being Miesseian economics. As I see alot tend to like to fall back on sociopaths like Hans Herman Hoppe, Rothbard, or LVM. I mostly encounter them on reddit and 4chan, most of them seem to fit the bernout mold if they do bring up economics, or else just don't give a poo poo at all or only care very very superficially Noam Chomsky posted:alt-right === "People won't have sex with me. Waaaah! It's because of feminism and minorities! Waaaah!" Their atitude towards sexuality is a lot more different than an older generation of poor Republican voters though, in the case of the religious right it was about animus and the bible: in their case you correctly identify it's driven by their failure to be part of getting laid in college
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Sep 29, 2016 06:42
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If I have to summarize the alt-right with one poll, it's this one: To be fair to them, as much as their rhetoric and messaging is crude (in more than 1 sense of the word), I don't think most of them are as extreme as a 60s-70s dixiecrat who formed the previous cohort of the white nationalist wing of the GOP. I think most of them believe that the pendulum in achieving racial justice for minorities in America has simply swung too far to the point where racism against white people is a real problem and is unacknowledged. The same is true of sexism and men: I don't think too many of them wants segregation back, but they are utterly deny the existence of both white and male privileges.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:57
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If the cause of the alt-right is a lack of high school sex, how do you go about solving that problem? Is there an acceptable alternative to high school sex that won't result in being made fun of?
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Sep 29, 2016 07:06
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Noam Chomsky posted:alt-right === "People won't have sex with me. Waaaah! It's because of feminism and minorities! Waaaah!" Poor people are just losers who can't get laid - A progressive Lol, people are seriously buying into the "argument" that violence among the non-ruling classes originates in human flaws and non-enlightenment of their members, not in the injustices and alienation inflicted on them by the elites.
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Sep 29, 2016 07:08
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Freakazoid_ posted:If the cause of the alt-right is a lack of high school sex, how do you go about solving that problem? Is there an acceptable alternative to high school sex that won't result in being made fun of? Clearly the answer is to include a free fleshlight with every sex ed class.
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Sep 29, 2016 07:08
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Freakazoid_ posted:If the cause of the alt-right is a lack of high school sex, how do you go about solving that problem? Is there an acceptable alternative to high school sex that won't result in being made fun of? there isn't really a very good answer to this, but over time greater normalization of certain ethnic groups in the US will likely further marginalize this group of people politically in the near future
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Sep 29, 2016 07:12
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The "problem of high school sex" is in fact a problem of being unable to socialize, due to any number of personal or family pathologies that could probably have been be easily addressed if more resources were put to it, or if they came from less dysfunctional backgrounds. Reducing the issue to not getting laid is just further shaming them for their lack of masculine achievements, and drives them deeper into self loathing and frustration, and therefore towards hating people around them.
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Sep 29, 2016 07:15
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steinrokkan posted:The "problem of high school sex" is in fact a problem of being unable to socialize, due to any number of personal or family pathologies that could probably have been be easily addressed if more resources were put to it, or if they came from less dysfunctional backgrounds. Reducing the issue to not getting laid is just further shaming them for their lack of masculine achievements, and drives them deeper into self loathing and frustration, and therefore towards hating people around them. I would agree with this. Attacking someone for not getting laid is frankly a rather toxic masculinity and if you are going to attack them, suggesting they are sexually inadequate really doesn't help your case as it comes across as not much better then when they use that word cuck. Wait we got rid of the word filter.
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Sep 29, 2016 07:22
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steinrokkan posted:The "problem of high school sex" is in fact a problem of being unable to socialize, due to any number of personal or family pathologies that could probably have been be easily addressed if more resources were put to it, or if they came from less dysfunctional backgrounds. Reducing the issue to not getting laid is just further shaming them for their lack of masculine achievements, and drives them deeper into self loathing and frustration, and therefore towards hating people around them. plenty of people who has dual-parent family with upper middle class backgrounds can't get laid in college (cuz they are ugly or have way too high standards), you are right you certainly shouldn't using this as an argument against them if you are debating them though. Nor is every overaged virgin an inevitable subscriber to racism or misogyny. Typo fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 07:53
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No kidding. I really don't get why leftists (or liberals or progressives or whatever we're calling ourselves) think this is at all a constructive line of attack. The worst of it is that it's so obviously unprovable. So I'm an rear end in a top hat? Maybe you're right that's a very subjective appraisal. So I'm a virgin? Ha ha what a moron I know for a fact that I have regular sex so I can now freely intuit that everything else you say is full of poo poo too. Besides that if we're really identifying "lack of high school sex" as the problem that's not something that can be laid at the feet of the right wing. The dip in sexually active teens/twenty-somethings is a recent phemonenon that came at the end of a decades long trend of extramarital sex being normalized. And it has been normalized- the very same people who report having significantly less sex than the Baby Boomers are also much more open-minded than they are when it comes to acceptable sexual practices, they just don't seem all that motivated to put those beliefs into practice.
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Sep 29, 2016 08:01
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I'm not sure where this goes in the discussion but I've thought it for a few days in seeing the thread title: the question if the alt right versus establishment republicans reminds me of what you see sometimes on forums where someone asks if black people wouldn't prefer someone who lets you know how they feel rather than disguising it? Of course if actual black person shows up to the discussion, of course they would prefer someone who is not outright racist. Duh. But for a certain slice of the white bread, this takes a long time to sink in. twerking on the railroad fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 08:17
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Baronjutter posted:Is there even an exact definition of alt-right? It seems to have blown up into this huge nebulous buzzword that anyone who feels remotely "progressive" can throw at anything or anyone they don't like. I've seen it on SA, in random facebook political arguments. If things get heated enough or someone says the wrong buzzword suddenly the accusations of "alt-right! you're alt-right!!" start to fly. It's seemingly morphing into a meaningless pejorative like "neo-liberal" I remember reading this a few months back, not sure if it's exact. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/23/alt-right-movement-white-identity-breitbart-donald-trump
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Sep 29, 2016 08:32
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We shouldn't poo poo on alt-righters for being virgin manchildren who can't get laid, we should poo poo on them for being white supremacist, misogynist, homophobic, and generally lovely. As to the question posed by the OP, the alt-right is worse in the sense that engaging with them will make you want to take a shower more than an establishment type, but not as bad in the sense that they have way less meaningful influence or power over modern American politics. They're angry nerds on the internet, except they mix Neo-Nazism in with their anime and video games.
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Sep 29, 2016 09:00
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Lightning Knight posted:We shouldn't poo poo on alt-righters for being virgin manchildren who can't get laid, we should poo poo on them for being white supremacist, misogynist, homophobic, and generally lovely. The sad thing is that that the alt righters real enemy is the older generation for leaving the economy in such a bad state. That is why they are depressed, saddled with debt and have little job prospects. Instead of realising this they are lashing back at "sjw's" telling them they are "privileged" on twitter.
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Sep 29, 2016 09:10
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Jippa posted:The sad thing is that that the alt righters real enemy is the older generation for leaving the economy in such a bad state. That is why they are depressed, saddled with debt and have little job prospects. Instead of realising this they are lashing back at "sjw's" telling them they are "privileged" on twitter. Yeah. What makes me sad/scares me about the alt-right is that given a slightly different path I am a hair's breadth away from the perfect target demographic for that poo poo, and I grew up in a conservative area, with conservative parents, and conservative views on the world. I basically happened to luck into a moderately left-leaning political subforum of a lovely website I was involved with and absorbed enough of the politics to not be poo poo. Also I read books. Books saved my life. But there's totally an alternate timeline me that is the most massive alt-right shitter you could possibly imagine and it makes me sad. 
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Sep 29, 2016 09:15
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Some Guy TT posted:No kidding. I really don't get why leftists (or liberals or progressives or whatever we're calling ourselves) think this is at all a constructive line of attack. The worst of it is that it's so obviously unprovable. So I'm an rear end in a top hat? Maybe you're right that's a very subjective appraisal. So I'm a virgin? Ha ha what a moron I know for a fact that I have regular sex so I can now freely intuit that everything else you say is full of poo poo too. It would not surprise me that there's less extramarital sex today than back in the day because people do not get into marriage unless they think they can keep it up, whereas people in the old days tended to feel forced into marriages because the culture demanded it more which resulted in more infidelity. This is probably not a bad outcome for anyone unless you're loving retarded.
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Sep 29, 2016 10:35
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^^This derail is stupid and I'm not replying to you unless you post an actual useful study backing up your argument instead of childish insults.Jippa posted:The sad thing is that that the alt righters real enemy is the older generation for leaving the economy in such a bad state. That is why they are depressed, saddled with debt and have little job prospects. Instead of realising this they are lashing back at "sjw's" telling them they are "privileged" on twitter. In all fairness people on our side do this too. Just last week there was this big harassment campaign against a woman because she was the girlfriend of a guy who donated ten grand to a project to make anti-Hillary billboards. The only explanation I can come up as to why both sides do this is because it's much easier to lash out in rage against an accessible person on twitter rather than the Waltons, who live on a literal guarded compound. And that much is why I personally prefer the alt-right to the establishment right. The alt-right is accessible and can be called out on their bullshit in ways the establishment right can't be. Yeah, you have to take a shower afterwards, but to me, knowing the truth is infinitely preferable to watching the media pretend like Marco Rubio is a sensible moderate when his platform is almost completely identical to Trump's.
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Sep 29, 2016 10:48
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Some Guy TT posted:^^This derail is stupid and I'm not replying to you unless you post an actual useful study backing up your argument instead of childish insults. Oh absolutely we see people on SA (especially d & d) do this all the time.
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Sep 29, 2016 12:17
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Some Guy TT posted:^^This derail is stupid and I'm not replying to you unless you post an actual useful study backing up your argument instead of childish insults. Maybe we both have radically different definitions of the alt-right, but if anything I've found the alt-right a lot less approachable or open to conversation. Vocal white nationalism isn't exactly preferable to those of us that aren't white, and despite how people talk about them being more accepting of gays and lesbians they're really vicious towards trans people. And let's not forget that special brand of misogyny they tend to brandish, blaming women for ruining marriage, being sluts, and not being cut out for real work.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:19
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Some Guy TT posted:And that much is why I personally prefer the alt-right to the establishment right. The alt-right is accessible and can be called out on their bullshit in ways the establishment right can't be. How is the alt-right "accessible?" They tend to live in safe space bubbles online, only venturing out to harass others on Twitter.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:22
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The "acceptance" towards gays some are claiming is only white gays and it is towards gays that also hate women.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:25
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Crowsbeak posted:The dark enlightenment has as many atheists as it has Christians. It really is for people who think their above everyone else but think libertarians are too soft. Also I am a Christian if a particularly bad one. Also yes maybe you all who think relationships with one other partner are bad can provide evidence for why that is. It's not the idea that having a relationship with one other partner is bad, it's the idea that you are bound forever and ever to the first person you gently caress is what's bad. Not all relationships last forever and forcing people to remain in an unhappy or even openly hostile one is what's bad. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 14:32
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WampaLord posted:How is the alt-right "accessible?" They tend to live in safe space bubbles online, only venturing out to harass others on Twitter. Yeah the alt-right is the kind of movement that pops up because on the internet you create your own intellectual world and have no need to engage others seriously.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:37
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Safe space bubbles online might not be an ideal environment, but at least we can look at them and get some clue as to what their thought process is. The establishment right, by comparison, for all intents and purposes lives in a completely different universe than the rest of us, where day-to-day living conditions haven't changed since the eighties. These were the guys who thought they could hoist Jeb Bush on the country with no serious resistance. Until Trump became the nominee they straight up refused to believe that a huge portion of their base genuinely despised them. If the alt-right is in a bubble, the establishment is in a bubble inside a bubble inside another bubble. fake edit: ...I feel like I should also note that should any alt-right people happen upon this thread (and they will), they are going to find it deliciously ironic that "safe space" is being used as a derogatory to describe them. It's one of the big things they make fun of us for doing.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:13
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Some Guy TT posted:fake edit: ...I feel like I should also note that should any alt-right people happen upon this thread (and they will), they are going to find it deliciously ironic that "safe space" is being used as a derogatory to describe them. It's one of the big things they make fun of us for doing. I'm well aware, which is why I chose the term. They tend to be extremely fragile when challenged and retreat back to their insular communities where they have banned anyone who dares to offer a different opinion. The very definition of a "safe space."
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Sep 29, 2016 15:17
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WampaLord posted:I'm well aware, which is why I chose the term. They tend to be extremely fragile when challenged and retreat back to their insular communities where they have banned anyone who dares to offer a different opinion. The very definition of a "safe space." I absolutely love that people who bleat about 'political correctness stifling freedom of speech' and similar made-up nonsense are the first ones to start furiously screeching and demanding censorship whenever anybody calls them out on their stupid bullshit.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:21
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Typo posted:I mostly encounter them on reddit and 4chan, most of them seem to fit the bernout mold if they do bring up economics, or else just don't give a poo poo at all or only care very very superficially The bible thumpers have the same attitude towards sex as the "alt-right," they just use the bible as cover for it. Conservatism is built on white dudes not getting laid enough and then getting pissy about it.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:22
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Saying that the alt-right is made up of angry young white men - angry because they have no prospects - is not just making fun of them because they can't get laid. These are the guys harassing feminists online, complaining about what women are like today, posting on /pol/ about Jews, and so on. They are incel failsons, and that's why they're alt-righters. They feel the table is tilted and the game is rigged, and it is, but not in the way they think. Right wingers are usually just smart enough to know things are not as they should be but not smart enough to be able to figure out why. I don't really get those of you saying that saying they can't get laid is not a good "line of attack" or whatever. Who cares? We're not debating them ITT; we're talking about them. Don't assume people would use the same language when actually debating a person as they would when discussing them.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:33
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I guess I'm just not seeing how the alt-right being more open, direct, and (in comparison to the corporate or libertarian type Republicans) visceral with their bigotry makes them somehow more palatable, especially to minorities. A lot of them go well past just dropping dog-whistles to being well to the right of the GOP establishment.Noam Chomsky posted:Saying that the alt-right is made up of angry young white men - angry because they have no prospects - is not just making fun of them because they can't get laid. Yeah, the point isn't to attack or accuse them, it's to discuss how a failure of socialization has combined with an overall economic downturn to create a sizeable demographic of socially disaffected men that have taken to congregating in places like 4chan and Reddit, and now blame various minorities for their problems.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:34
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Quote-Unquote posted:I absolutely love that people who bleat about 'political correctness stifling freedom of speech' and similar made-up nonsense are the first ones to start furiously screeching and demanding censorship whenever anybody calls them out on their stupid bullshit. Of course. The idea is that the world should be their "safe space" and should be beyond reproach, and they should be able to intrude anywhere they like, at any time, since the world belongs to them. They see actual safe spaces as an encroachment on their territory, a place from which to plan and launch an insurgency.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:36
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Pussy Cartel posted:I guess I'm just not seeing how the alt-right being more open, direct, and (in comparison to the corporate or libertarian type Republicans) visceral with their bigotry makes them somehow more palatable, especially to minorities. A lot of them go well past just dropping dog-whistles to being well to the right of the GOP establishment. Yes. I am not trying to make fun of them. Plenty of folks can't get laid and I do think that it's become tougher for a person engage in hook-up culture and to live up to the standards everyone has in their head because of the expansion and omnipresence of the media, and what is portrayed as attractive therein, but these guys tend to have a wholly unrealistic notion of what makes a person appealing and what kind of work they may have to put in to be appealing. Feeling like you lost a game where you believe the rules themselves are against you will make you incredibly angry and many don't have the skills necessary to seek out information about why the deck is really stacked against the rank and file, and it makes them prey to misinformation.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:40
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Some Guy TT posted:fake edit: ...I feel like I should also note that should any alt-right people happen upon this thread (and they will), they are going to find it deliciously ironic that "safe space" is being used as a derogatory to describe them. It's one of the big things they make fun of us for doing. The alt-right has more or less adopted the tactics employed by the identity politics-focused left in the past few years. They have embraced safe spaces for their ideas, have viciously attacked concern trolls (I agree with your goals, but you are going about it the wrong way...), decried free speech as a tool that only benefits certain groups, and agitate for the advancement their own racial/gender group. In many ways, it's a simple mirror of identity politics, and focused on winning rather than ideological purity. Noam Chomsky posted:The bible thumpers have the same attitude towards sex as the "alt-right," they just use the bible as cover for it. Conservatism is built on white dudes not getting laid enough and then getting pissy about it. There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of the current state of male/female sexual relations, and other ancillary issues such as porn. You have to be pretty deep down the rabbit hole to think that breaking ever more closely held societal taboos around sex is always a good thing in and of itself.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:41
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In my experience, it's also because the traditional right-wing is made up of people who are (for the purposes of contrast) normal. As in, they're people you might know who are otherwise decent people who don't really give the game away until the topic of politics is broached. These people have lives and things to do, like jobs and families, and have interests that don't always intersect with politics. Usually they have no real experience with outsider perspectives and only really react when threatened (like BLM bringing out of the woodwork people who otherwise consider themselves "not racist, but..."). Most of their information is passively absorbed via old media, and the occasional Facebook post. Alt-righters, on the other hand, revel in being trollish and in-your-face attitudes such that actual engagement and harassment becomes an active hobby. Generally being younger and college-aged means they have more time to engage in their spheres of communication. Being a mostly internet-based "movement" by its very nature encourages more active participation without the diversity that encountering other people in the real world brings (eg. even by accident, you can still run into people online that are black or gay or women). They, by contrast to the traditional right-wing, are not part of the larger public sphere and therefore lash out.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:42
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WampaLord posted:I'm well aware, which is why I chose the term. They tend to be extremely fragile when challenged and retreat back to their insular communities where they have banned anyone who dares to offer a different opinion. The very definition of a "safe space." lol equating "internet safe spaces" (aka internet forums where everybody can post anonymously and safely) with literal doom fortresses of the wealthy and powerful
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Sep 29, 2016 15:43
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I see this 'alt-right' phenomenon as a bunch of youngish types, alienated by what can be the overbearing manner of social-justice proponents and the left in general, who have found a kind of assertiveness in numbers, memes, and internet anonymity. Accusations of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc., warranted or not, have become modern-day witchcraft. The alt-right, often protected by anonymity, engages in vandalism of social mores against bigotry. Hysteria about their antics emboldens cultural trolls.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:44
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Freakazoid_ posted:If the cause of the alt-right is a lack of high school sex, how do you go about solving that problem? Is there an acceptable alternative to high school sex that won't result in being made fun of? I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Alt-right guys can't get laid because they are alt-right. They aren't alt-right because girls wouldn't have sex with them, that's just what they think, but it's wrong. Girls don't want to have sex with guys who are seething cauldrons of barely suppressed rage, because girls don't want to end up with a black eye at the high school prom. It's not that lack of sex makes men angry; it's that women don't want to have sex with angry men, because that's a great way to end up in a domestic violence shelter. If guys who are angry want to get laid, they should channel that energy in talking to a therapist about their anger issues. It's kind of funny that these alt-right guys seem to want a white picket fence life with a gender they hate and despise. This is how abusive relationships start. Even the meekest and most traditional woman is going to find herself not measuring up to the woman in these guys heads, which seems to be someone who will do everything in the most hardcore pornos (despite being a virgin when starting the relationship) and then leap out of bed to scrub and raise their 5 children with no help from the dad except finance and guidance. Oh, and scratch the finance. Women should pay their own way! But they should also not have jobs because that destroys the family. My head hurts following these guys' train of thoughts.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:46
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steinrokkan posted:equating "internet safe spaces" (aka internet forums where everybody can post anonymously and safely) with literal doom fortresses of the wealthy and powerful "Everybody can post" is a lie because they'll outright ban people they disagree with. "Safely" is an even bigger lie, look at how much the alt-right loves to harass and doxx people who dare disagree with them. Look at Milo's campaign of hate directed at Leslie Jones.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:47
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