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MildShow posted:I think it's more of the opposite - it's been awhile since I've read Skin Game, but the statue was of the triple goddess and Michael was referring to the maiden, right? It's mentioned in Cold Days that Lily was virtually indistinguishable from Aurora, which implies that the Ladies eventually lose their mortal appearance, which means that Molly will eventually look like Maeve. My guess is that there's a connection between Hecate and the Faerie Queens, similar to Kringle/Odin.
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Sep 28, 2016 10:00
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anilEhilated posted:This could be interesting as it implies there's a third Faerie Queen running around. I thought that was just for The Lady/The Queen/The Mother.
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Sep 28, 2016 13:34
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anilEhilated posted:This could be interesting as it implies there's a third Faerie Queen running around. Nah, it's definitely the whole Mother, Maiden, Crone thing that the Faerie queens have going, with Mother, Queen and Lady. Pretty sure Hecate is one of Mother Winter's names.
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Sep 28, 2016 13:37
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I was thinking about The Adversary. In Cold Days, Maeve is infected, but seems to be herself, acting on her own goals. Just nuttier. On the other hand, Cat Sith is taken over a bit more blatantly. Can it seep into people and make them act nutty without taking them over completely?
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Sep 28, 2016 18:02
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I was thinking about The Adversary. In Cold Days, Maeve is infected, but seems to be herself, acting on her own goals. Just nuttier. On the other hand, Cat Sith is taken over a bit more blatantly. Can it seep into people and make them act nutty without taking them over completely?
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Sep 28, 2016 18:06
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Personally, I think Harry was speaking directly to Nemesis at that point as it spoke through Sith. I don't think it was possessing Maeve so much as it just freed her from the limitations of her fae nature, so she was more or less just the same. But once Harry called it out on not being the real Sith in charge of the malk, it dropped the act and just spoke to him normally. Of course, this raises the question of Nemesis' nature. Perhaps Sith was replaced with a near duplicate servitor entity, or maybe Nemesis can just go full on puppeteer.
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Sep 28, 2016 23:34
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Vicissitude posted:Personally, I think Harry was speaking directly to Nemesis at that point as it spoke through Sith. I don't think it was possessing Maeve so much as it just freed her from the limitations of her fae nature, so she was more or less just the same. But once Harry called it out on not being the real Sith in charge of the malk, it dropped the act and just spoke to him normally. Of course, this raises the question of Nemesis' nature. Perhaps Sith was replaced with a near duplicate servitor entity, or maybe Nemesis can just go full on puppeteer. My take is it sinks its hooks in and digs deeper and deeper, influencing behavior in small ways at first, until finally it just cores the victim out and wears them like a suit. The more powerful take more time. I think that's what was going on when Leah was in Mab's garden. She was obviously fighting for supremacy of her mind and Mab placed her there. I don't know if the ice has curative powers for the Winter Court, if Leah just needed some "me" time to fight it off, or a combination of both. I also think that's when Mab first became aware of the infiltration of Nemesis, and in retrospect, I think she was suspecting her daughter was falling under its influence. Remember the next time we see her, Cat Sith is her mouth piece because she was so furious her voice would literally destroy someone if she spoke aloud.
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Sep 29, 2016 00:54
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Mr. Bad Guy posted:Nah, it's definitely the whole Mother, Maiden, Crone thing that the Faerie queens have going, with Mother, Queen and Lady. Pretty sure Hecate is one of Mother Winter's names. Pretty sure Harry summons her using the name Hecate at one point. Or, gets her attention anyways. I never was quite sure about who summoned who when he went to summon her from his grave site and she pulled him through to where she was.
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Sep 29, 2016 01:06
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flosofl posted:My take is it sinks its hooks in and digs deeper and deeper, influencing behavior in small ways at first, until finally it just cores the victim out and wears them like a suit. The more powerful take more time. I think that's what was going on when Leah was in Mab's garden. She was obviously fighting for supremacy of her mind and Mab placed her there. I don't know if the ice has curative powers for the Winter Court, if Leah just needed some "me" time to fight it off, or a combination of both. I also think that's when Mab first became aware of the infiltration of Nemesis, and in retrospect, I think she was suspecting her daughter was falling under its influence. Remember the next time we see her, Cat Sith is her mouth piece because she was so furious her voice would literally destroy someone if she spoke aloud. I was just thinking about it because I was wondering if Harry or Nicodemus might be infected without realizing it. If Harry was touched, it might explain why He-Who-Walks nudged him down the path to begin with. Harry keeps doing highly unusual things for a wizard, he throws himself into situations for reasons that aren't always clear to even himself, etc. He keeps doing "the right thing", but he keeps making the world a very different and unstable place in the process. I don't think it's likely, but it's a fun idea I couldn't dismiss out of hand. Pretty certain that some of the Fallen are infected. There are around ten-ish coins we haven't seen, and it would explain the mess at Arctis Tor. I figure that's the one that whispered in Harry's ear, and it is why they were able to bend the rules to do so.
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Sep 29, 2016 02:43
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I like your theory and pose a follow on that: Mirror Harry (the good one) is the one who didn't get infected by Nemesis by Justin, and hence has lived a far less hectic but still fulfilling life without having to deal with the doom of damocleas, and that because of it, good Harry wasn't in the places he needed to be to properly Dresden-ify and hence that's actually a darker path for the world as a whole. And when in Harry going to start Wardening the coins rather than letting the church keep losing them every week.
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Sep 29, 2016 04:02
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M_Gargantua posted:
I don't think he can. There was a point when he was asking Lash to help, and she was going to tell him how to get the coin out of something like 3 magic circles built by Harry with Svartelf help. Something he considered more than adequate to hold most anything he would ever have to summon or protect himself from. Having them in White Council control is just asking for every other Denarian to come a running to break them out, or with the Black Council floating around take them out and use them. Him having them all by himself is just asking to get killed. Better the church where they're kind of out of circulation than where you know they'll get used almost immediately.
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Sep 29, 2016 05:35
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Dresden keeping the coins all to himself is a bad idea, especially as he probably couldn't do it. But Alfred could. Alfred would probably kick up his heels and titter with joy at the very prospect.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:24
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Michael said that it's in the nature of the coins to be "in circulation". Sounds to me like that's part of the balancing force of them against the swords. As long as the swords remain in the world, so too do the coins. I'm guessing that like the One Ring, they can exert minor influence on the world around them. Just like the ring resized itself to slip from Gollum's finger and lose itself, maybe the coins can, for instance, put a small tear in a protective glove and begin corrupting the person handling them in the church. Faith or no, with a fallen angel whispering the REAL secrets of the universe and the afterlife you'd eventually get someone who would perform the pocket change equivalent of a jailbreak.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:37
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Dresden keeping the coins all to himself is a bad idea, especially as he probably couldn't do it. But Alfred could. Alfred would probably kick up his heels and titter with joy at the very prospect. Alfred would probably pick up a coin since Dresden has hosed up and Named him, giving him agency.
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Sep 29, 2016 11:28
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seaborgium posted:I don't think he can. There was a point when he was asking Lash to help, and she was going to tell him how to get the coin out of something like 3 magic circles built by Harry with Svartelf help. Something he considered more than adequate to hold most anything he would ever have to summon or protect himself from. Having them in White Council control is just asking for every other Denarian to come a running to break them out, or with the Black Council floating around take them out and use them. Him having them all by himself is just asking to get killed. Better the church where they're kind of out of circulation than where you know they'll get used almost immediately. I tend to think that, until the Jailbreak at Demonreach that will kick-off or be a big part of the BAT, Demonreach's dungeon is the safest place for the coins. No one can get in except for Harry, and Alfred isn't an entity so much as a nature spirit with a strict purpose so I don't think he counts for angelic posession--it's gotta be a mortal of some kind; someone with a soul.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:08
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Wade Wilson posted:Alfred would probably pick up a coin since Dresden has hosed up and Named him, giving him agency. Probably a good thing that he didn't get to name his daughter.  Blasphemeral posted:I tend to think that, until the Jailbreak at Demonreach that will kick-off or be a big part of the BAT, Demonreach's dungeon is the safest place for the coins. No one can get in except for Harry, and Alfred isn't an entity so much as a nature spirit with a strict purpose so I don't think he counts for angelic posession--it's gotta be a mortal of some kind; someone with a soul. Speaking of jailbreaks at Demonreach, I was thinking about something at the start of Skin Game. Remember the British guy who tells Dresden he's "Someone that has to be there"? The one everyone thinks is Merlin? I'd wager he's someone that was willingly placed there, so that if anyone ever let loose the prisoners, he'd also get loose as consequence. So long as he's in stasis, he'll live as long as Demonreach will. Everyone seems to think the guy is Merlin, but I bet it is King Arthur for a couple of reasons.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:56
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Everyone seems to think the guy is Merlin, but I bet it is King Arthur for a couple of reasons. I like that. Or a remorseful Modred doing penance for destroying Camelot?
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Sep 29, 2016 19:22
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Everyone seems to think the guy is Merlin, but I bet it is King Arthur for a couple of reasons. I thought it was King Arthur as well, though I hadn't thought about Merlin.
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Sep 29, 2016 19:24
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flosofl posted:I like that. Or a remorseful Modred doing penance for destroying Camelot? I guess Arthur because it would fit the "king under the
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Sep 29, 2016 19:44
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Probably a good thing that he didn't get to name his daughter. Slightly more crazy thought: What if it's God? We have not heard from or seen His action anywhere. Only His agents. Further, His agents never seem to mention speaking to or receiving orders from or reporting to Him. I always get the feeling, when Uriel is onscreen, that he's just following his ages-old orders without any new feedback. That's perhaps why he's getting more creative in Skin Game: he's testing the rules without explicitly breaking them to see if he gets called into the principal's office. And I get the feeling he hasn't been called up yet, which contributes to his more melancholy nature in these later books. I think he's realizing the throne might just be sitting empty up there as the world creeps towards darkness.
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Sep 29, 2016 19:44
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So Merlin builds the universes maximum security temporal prison in the early centuries and you're saying the Christian God committed himself to the asylum out of guilt?
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Sep 29, 2016 19:55
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M_Gargantua posted:So Merlin builds the universes maximum security temporal prison in the early centuries and you're saying the Christian God committed himself to the asylum out of guilt? That would be a pretty neat thing to have happen outside of a Neil Gaiman story.
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Sep 29, 2016 20:06
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M_Gargantua posted:So Merlin builds the universes maximum security temporal prison in the early centuries and you're saying the Christian God committed himself to the asylum out of guilt? Bingo.
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Sep 29, 2016 20:14
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... That's only one possibility for where He is, of course, but one thing I'm nearly certain of (if you'll pardon my vernacular): Jesus doesn't have the wheel in the current Dresdenverse. The theory I have the strongest feeling for in the entire series is that the throne is empty and has been for a while.
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Sep 29, 2016 20:19
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I've started re-reading the Dresden Files books for the first time in five or six years, and just finished Storm Front. I still like it, on the whole. Everything to do with Susan and the vampire lady is godawful, of course, especially the bit with the love potion, but otherwise I think it's an enjoyable read. It's different from the later books to be sure, I think mostly in the sense of certain characters and concepts not yet having settled into their later characterization (the White Council especially), but I think everything that makes Dresden fun can be found here, if just not very polished.
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Sep 29, 2016 20:22
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Blasphemeral posted:... That's only one possibility for where He is, of course, but one thing I'm nearly certain of (if you'll pardon my vernacular): Jesus doesn't have the wheel in the current Dresdenverse. I understand Butcher's background, but I wish the mythology, if you will, of other religions was as present as Christianity is. It feels like a missed opportunity to me.
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Sep 29, 2016 21:05
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I don't think the throne is empty. I just think that God is far removed from earth. If he actually created the universe in Dresden-land, that is a lot of power. You know how Mab was once so angry that she couldn't speak because it would kill everyone around her? Imagine what would happen if capital-G God spoke on the mortal plane. I can't imagine he's happy. I imagine he doesn't interact with the world for similar reasons. If we're talking universe-creating levels of power, then doing anything on earth would be like The Hulk trying to build a ship in a bottle. While wearing oven mitts. There are other gods kicking around and doing stuff, but I'm not surprised that it is mostly Western myths and mythology. It is what his audience is most familiar with, the series is set in America, etc. We'll probably get more Eastern myths before the day is done, but he can only cover so many Gods and such before it gets kind of muddled. I'm kind of interested to see if God is actually THE God. Dresden-world seems to imply that gods draw a significant amount of their power from the people that believe in them, but I don't think it has ever addressed whether or not they're created by belief to begin with. Maybe God-God has merely assumed the mantle, or put on a new mask when Christianity rose to power. Maybe he was Zeus before that, Osiris before that, etc, etc. The Fallen say they've been around since the beginning of time, but they never said they've always been angels.
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Sep 29, 2016 21:39
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I think it's a bit of world building best served through the omission.
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Sep 29, 2016 21:43
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Speaking of jailbreaks at Demonreach, Hey, I used to play bass for Jailbreak at Demonreach
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Sep 30, 2016 05:57
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A. Beaverhausen posted:I understand Butcher's background, but I wish the mythology, if you will, of other religions was as present as Christianity is. It feels like a missed opportunity to me. Yeah, hopefully we'll get more. Vicissitude posted:Hey, I used to play bass for Jailbreak at Demonreach I love that joke. I need to use it more often. This is such a  band name, though, that I kinda want a concert shirt for it.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:52
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A. Beaverhausen posted:I understand Butcher's background, but I wish the mythology, if you will, of other religions was as present as Christianity is. It feels like a missed opportunity to me. This, i thought butcher was going to get into more of the Hindu and east asian religions.
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Sep 30, 2016 16:44
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Azuth0667 posted:This, i thought butcher was going to get into more of the Hindu and east asian religions. He's said before that he's not familiar enough with Islam or Asian religions to be comfortable writing them. He writes Christianity a lot because that's a religion and mythology he knows a lot about and feels comfortable writing. Knocked out Fool Moon today in my re-read of the series. I don't think it's a bad book - Murphy is right throughout the whole book and Dresden does acknowledge it at the end. Still horribly embarrassing stuff with hot naked women doing sexy stuff, but I like the concept of werewolves as a fantasy element and think they're often written terribly (particularly with how often they're tied up with paranormal romance). Fool Moon executes five different types of werewolf in the same book and pulls them all off pretty well and makes them interesting (aforementioned hot naked woman doing sexy stuff aside). I think MacFinn and the FBI agents are interesting antagonists, and I wouldn't have minded one of them getting away to become a recurring threat. One of the most interesting little plot elements is one briefly mentioned on the last page: the evidence of the attacks quickly disappears and nothing ever comes from an FBI team disappearing in Chicago, leading Dresden to speculate that some part of the US government is aware of the supernatural and is covering things up. That's a neat idea I hope comes up again, and would be a natural role for Murphy to slide into.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:26
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Hey, whatever happened to Tera West?
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Sep 30, 2016 17:37
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Wade Wilson posted:Hey, whatever happened to Tera West? I remember there being a WoJ that we'd see her again. I think there was speculation that Fitz from Ghost Story was her (possibly illegitimate?) (step-/)son and carries MacFinn's curse.
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Sep 30, 2016 18:09
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Wade Wilson posted:Hey, whatever happened to Tera West? Her name's come up once or twice. I think Listens-To-Wind or someone said she told him to tell Harry "hi" once.
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Sep 30, 2016 18:23
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Glad to see I'm not the only one doing a repeat read-through!
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Sep 30, 2016 20:38
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Blasphemeral posted:I remember there being a WoJ that we'd see her again. Didn't Fitz and that gang show up first in Summer Knight? About to start on that one for my repeat read through.
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Sep 30, 2016 20:53
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A. Beaverhausen posted:Didn't Fitz and that gang show up first in Summer Knight? About to start on that one for my repeat read through. Don't confuse Fitz and Fix.
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Sep 30, 2016 20:57
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vulturesrow posted:Glad to see I'm not the only one doing a repeat read-through! It's the first time I've ever gone back and read the series from the start. It's interesting to see how things evolved and potential plot threads like Dresden speculating a MIB/TFV equivalent is around, the as-yet unanswered question of where the FBI agents got the Hexenwulf belts from, and the suggestion that Saint Patrick created the loup-garou. Any of those could be a great hook for a future book.
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Sep 30, 2016 20:59
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A. Beaverhausen posted:Didn't Fitz and that gang show up first in Summer Knight? About to start on that one for my repeat read through. Fitz and his gang were part of a subplot in Ghost Story, I believe. Not sure what the basis for thinking he's West and MacFinn's kid is, though (and if another loup-garou were running around Chicago, I'd think someone would have noticed by now).
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Sep 30, 2016 20:59
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