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SurgicalOntologist posted:There's also this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel That was the manifesto for the 2006 Palestinian elections which is separate from the Hamas charter. They didn't drop it so much as not mention it and the manifesto was for the List for Change and Reform which was majority Hamas but with some outside elements. It is certainly a good sign that the List for Change and Reform did not mention attacks against Israel in the manifesto because it downplays the Hamas Covenant, but downplaying is not the same as repudiating. I think it is fair to say that they haven't ever changed it because although they have drifted into a position where they are willing to compromise, there are still elements within the group where renouncing elements of the charter would potentially cause a split. It is a point to make note of, just nowhere near the issue that Xander is making it out to be.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:21
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team overhead smash posted:If you want to know where Hamas stands that's fine, but that's not what you're doing when you focus solely on a 30 year old document to the exclusion of all else. I'm just wondering who you consider to be the non-hardliner elements in the Hamas, and what their position is on the liberation of Palestine. Edit - Do you know how I know what Meretz or Labor or Hadash envision as a just and peaceful solution to the conflict? I listen to what they say. I've listened to a number of Hamas "factions" and they all appear to envision the same ideal solution to the conflict - all of Palestine, coast to coast, liberated from the Zionist occupiers. Some, being less "hardline" are willing to accept that a limited autonomy or independence for certain areas of Palestine would be a good first step towards said ideal liberation. I'm not unwilling to imagine that a truce based on said non-ideal solution could evolve into a lasting and fair peace. It's a possibility, probably. But if you're telling me that there are elements - or even a majority - within the Hamas who believe that sharing the land with Jews is the ideal solution they should aspire to, rather than a compromise or a temporary first step, you'd have to present some evidence that that is the case. Because Meretz and Hadash, above, do in fact clearly state that sharing Israeli territory with the Palestinian people, whether in a single state or two-states agreement, is the ideal solution they are aspiring to. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 21:22
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Xander why do you even try? You are not changing the mind of the people that consider stabbing a picture much worse thing then stabbing a person.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:34
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Sup, new avatar buddy. Think of all the money that could go towards
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Sep 30, 2016 21:36
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Xander77 posted:To me, knowing where Hamas actually stands is a good thing to... err... know, when it comes to efforts for peace in the area. Which... I wouldn't think would be all that controversial. "Hamas are bad guys and therefore the oppression of Palestinians is justified and must continue." We heard you just fine the first time. Likewise, Nusra is literally Al-Qaeda and therefore Bashar el-Assad is entirely justified in his righteous counter-terrorist operations.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:42
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Xander77 posted:By "exclusion of all else", you mean "citing the Hamas Prime Minister at the time" (Edit - "at the time" does not refer to 1988, just to be perfectly clear), then... sure. Are you being wilfully ignorant? In my last post as an example I linked you to a Hamas official stating that they would accept peace with israel in the event of a referendum supporting the deal. Not some temporary truce, full blown peace. This is a position that is also held by exactly the same Prime Minister that you cite and whose opinion take as evidence of the direction of Hamas. You clearly aren't actually listening to what is said. At best you are listening to a fraction of what is said and only the portions of it that fit your pre-concieved notions of Palestinians as cartoonish supervillains while ignoring anything that adds even the slightest nuance or disagreement to your ideology.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:48
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Xander77 posted:Sup, new avatar buddy. Seeing red fruits of your struggle is priceless.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:58
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team overhead smash posted:This is a position that is also held by exactly the same Prime Minister that you cite and whose opinion take as evidence of the direction of Hamas. Oh, because you're quote:ignoring anything that adds even the slightest nuance or disagreement to your ideology.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:59
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Lady Morgaga posted:Xander why do you even try? You are not changing the mind of the people that consider bombing thousands of people who are mostly civilians much worse thing then stabbing a person. ftfy
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Sep 30, 2016 22:18
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Xander77 posted:So? Why do you accept as a given the statements in the quote you've linked - a quote in which he specifies such a position would differ from Hamas ideology and principles, but why bother reading your own links "Hamas will respect the results (of a referendum) regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles," Because he is specifically stating that the adherence to the results of a Palestinian referendum would override the organisation'. This isn't you finding some amazing rebuttal, this is you missing the entire point and not being able to understand what is plainly written in the article. quote:and not in his speech a year later, explicitly stating that the liberation of the entirety of Palestine is still an ultimate goal, and any interim liberation is a mere stepping stone? This is a really stupid argument on every level. First of all, you implicitly admit your bias. You offer absolutely no defence of your refusal to look at the facts and only acknowledging any evidence which already meets your worldview, instead trying to present it as okay because you think I do it too but in the opposite direction. Secondly, this is dumb as hell because if you actually read my last few post you'll see that I do take examples of Hamas showing hardline anti-israel positions as a negative sign of their willingness to accept peace, e.g. "I think it is fair to say that they haven't ever changed it because although they have drifted into a position where they are willing to compromise, there are still elements within the group where renouncing elements of the charter would potentially cause a split." quote:Edit - what the gently caress do you even imagine my ideology is? Virulent anti-palestinian racism. Unless you are really really stupid, there isn't any other reasonable explanation for your consistent misrepresent of even basic information which is presented to you, especially in that you always misrepresent it in such a way that you try to paint Palestinians and anti-zionists as wrong or evil.
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Sep 30, 2016 22:20
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team overhead smash posted:"Hamas will respect the results (of a referendum) regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles," Maybe you're thinking that the "but" overrides everything that came before it (ignoring the later statement I linked, which you utterly failed to address) but trying to omit the whole "yeah, our principles remain the same, even if our actions may momentarily differ from them" as inconsequential is an amazing intentional failure of reading comprehension. quote:First of all, you implicitly admit your bias. You offer absolutely no defence of your refusal to look at the facts and only acknowledging any evidence which already meets your worldview, instead trying to present it as okay because you think I do it too but in the opposite direction. I believe that the stance he took trumps the earlier one - both by virtue of being more recent, and by virtue of outright stating on the occasion that "yeah, any temporary agreements and statements to the contrary are just that - temporary". You, on the other hand, completely ignored the later stance... only to accuse me of refusing to look at the facts. quote:Virulent anti-palestinian racism. Unless you are really really stupid, there isn't any other reasonable explanation for your consistent misrepresent of even basic information which is presented to you, especially in that you always misrepresent it in such a way that you try to paint Palestinians and anti-zionists as wrong or evil.
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Sep 30, 2016 22:35
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Xander77 posted:To me, knowing where Hamas actually stands is a good thing to... err... know, when it comes to efforts for peace in the area. Which... I wouldn't think would be all that controversial. Look at my cherry-picked facts; they prove that Muslims need to be genocided in order to secure a future for Jewish children.  ISLAMAPHOBE (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 30, 2016 22:41
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Hamas is a lovely regressive antisemitic hardline Islamist terrorist organization that dropped any pretense of elections and democracy as they won, consistently make the life of any Palestinian not willing to listen to them hell and has routinely engaged in brutal murder of innocent civilians (Israeli or Palestinian). That doesn't make Israel magically any less of an piece of poo poo apartheid colonialist militarist state whose crimes make Hamas' look like amateurs in both magnitude and consistency. If one is talking about either's crimes bringing up the other is idiotic because nothing justifies the poo poo done by either. There I solved this stupid loving debate
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Sep 30, 2016 22:42
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icantfindaname posted:Look at my cherry-picked facts; they prove that Muslims need to be genocided in order to secure a future for Jewish children. It's the lamest, tamest, most conveyor belt red title one could possibly get in an I/P slapfight. Even the Hitler avatar was (way) more effective - I didn't feel comfortable looking at it, and if someone passed by while I was browsing the forums I'd have to change tabs. You quoting that like some kind of    is really sad. Edit - the payot are just an amazing touch though. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 30, 2016 22:51
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DarkCrawler posted:Hamas is a lovely regressive antisemitic hardline Islamist terrorist organization that dropped any pretense of elections and democracy as they won, consistently make the life of any Palestinian not willing to listen to them hell and has routinely engaged in brutal murder of innocent civilians (Israeli or Palestinian). To be fair it was Abbas who ended democracy for Palestinians, but Hamas certainly did double down on that in Gaza.
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Sep 30, 2016 22:52
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Xander77 posted:Ok, so just like it's impossible to reply to "U mad" without sound totally mad, it's probably impossible to go "this lame insult totally doesn't bother me" without looking someone who cares too much. But still, what's the internet for trying the impossible? The title isn't for you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 1, 2016 00:05
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I don't think Palestine has been particularly well-served by its political leadership as it seems to have been outmaneuvered in its gulf/saudi support by Israel but I don't think that's a good reason to say that Israel should get the land and to remove its previous inhabitants and/or that it's the neighboring Arab states' responsibility to take them all in. The later part of that sentence is actually really close to the consensus on the issue in the majority Israeli coalition. I wonder if someone's going to read this as an anti-semitic slur now because it's a critique of Israel.
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Oct 1, 2016 00:12
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Xander77 posted:What the living gently caress do you think is "plainly written in the article"? Because I'm pretty sure it's "Hamas' ideology and principles do not support peace with Israel, but......................" ""Hamas will respect the results (of a referendum) regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles," Please explain how the combination of words I have just quoted result in the outcome you claim. There is no hedging, it explicitly states that if a referendum supports it it will override all other concerns. You are just outright making poo poo up. Please, for instance, quote any part of the article which explains how he only taking about this only being a momentary thing as you claim? Rather than - you know - it being about committing to peace with Israel as the article actually states. Are you not a native English speaker? Serious question here because what it says is as clear as day and although you claim you're not a racist, it doesn't leave many other option open when you're just blatantly making poo poo up to this degree and consistently doing it to disparage Palestinians. You never seem to accidentally misunderstand very very basic stuff in a way critical of Israelis.. quote:The gently caress are you even talking about? We traded links in which the same organization - the head of the same organization, even - took two different positions on the same issues. Yes, exactly. You are equating our positions as the same but with one person being biased towards Palestinians and one towards Israelis. Accusing me of being biased is therefore an implicit admission that you are biased. quote:I believe that the stance he took trumps the earlier one - both by virtue of being more recent, and by virtue of outright stating on the occasion that "yeah, any temporary agreements and statements to the contrary are just that - temporary". Yeah, because in your link in no way does he make these statements conditional on the popular support of the people! "As long as the people in Tunisia, in Sfax, say: "The people wants the liberation of Palestine," we say to Israel: "Dark days await you, Allah willing." Dark days await the Zionist entity. " Oh wait, yeah he does. Also he doesn't say "yeah, any temporary agreements and statements to the contrary are just that - temporary" but he does in fact explicitly say ""Hamas will respect the results (of a referendum) regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles". He explicitly states the opposite of what you claim, that a referendum would be the overriding factor. Lastly this just backs up my point about your simplistic point of view, where people have don;t have nuanced multi-facted opinions but rather simple yes/no one that suddenly trump each other or take precedence in a binary fashion. Besides, as if the rationale you lay out is actually anything like your actual reasoning anyway! Tell me, will you commit to stick to the factors you lay out here? That the valid opinion is decided by him stating precedence and the date of the statement? So if I provide a link showing that after December 2011 he stated a referendum would be an overriding factor that would take precedence over Hamas's principles, will you suddenly do a complete 180 in your opinion? quote:You, on the other hand, completely ignored the later stance... only to accuse me of refusing to look at the facts. You're delusional again. You didn't bring up those links in any part of the conversation with me until your accusation in the last last post that I hadn't responded to them. Yeah, no poo poo, I didn't respond to them when you were posting them as part of a conversation with someone else. Meanwhile the fundamental accusation is of me not looking at evidence that casts Hamas in a bad light. You make this accusation just after I just post pointing out and talking about how evidence casts Hamas in a bad light. As you might not have seen it (because it wasn't directed to you) so I explicitly quoted the relevant part in my last post and that means you have absolutely no excuse for repeating this nonsense here. "I think it is fair to say that they haven't ever changed it because although they have drifted into a position where they are willing to compromise, there are still elements within the group where renouncing elements of the charter would potentially cause a split." Once again you are dumb and making stuff up quote:So... you're just retarded. Fair enough. Can you offer a better explanation of your posting than racism?
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Oct 1, 2016 00:51
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I feel like arguing the specifics of Israel's crimes is a worthless strategy not even for the obvious reason of arguing on the internet doing nothing, but b/c the real issue are Zionist liberals who are animated by a genteel, self-righteous affection for a vision of Israel that does not exist, has never existed, and will never exist, and would prefer if Palestinians simply disappeared so they would't have to think about their darling state/political movement carrying out large scale ethnic cleansing and genocide. They're more of a problem than Nutty Yahoo and the Israeli right, or their supporters in the US, because they are the ones with actual power Unfortunately, we've seen lately how absolutely overwhelming the crackdown and screaming of antisemitism is when the anti-Zionist left tries to break with Zionist liberalism. I don't think liberals will tolerate an explicitly anti-Zionist left ever gaining power or influence, and in that case don't expect anything to happen as Israel descends into explicit fascism except performative hand-wringing to let them hold onto their liberal Zionist ideal and still feel good about themselves icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 01:13
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eSports Chaebol posted:To be fair it was Abbas who ended democracy for Palestinians, but Hamas certainly did double down on that in Gaza. Fatah/PLO is historically at the very minimum just as bad as Hamas. Right now they are basically Vidkun Quisling so they are bad in a different way. gently caress the Palestinian leadership and gently caress the leadership of the Arab nations too. A good part of the problem is their total and complete incompetence and corruption.
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Oct 1, 2016 01:19
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Xander77 posted:My point is that So, what, your argument is that because Hamas still holds some positions that it held at the time the charter was written, it still holds every position it held at the time the charter was written? No wonder you didn't want to spell it out, because it's incredibly weak and dishonest. Xander77 posted:I've listened to a number of Hamas "factions" and they all appear to envision the same ideal solution to the conflict - all of Palestine, coast to coast, liberated from the Zionist occupiers. Some, being less "hardline" are willing to accept that a limited autonomy or independence for certain areas of Palestine would be a good first step towards said ideal liberation. Are you telling me that a resistance organization in an occupied or conquered territory wants to overturning outsider rule and restore their own control and sovereignty over the stolen territory? Perish the thought! yes, I know that you're trying to bait people by acting as though "removing the Israeli government" means "slaughtering every Jew in Palestinian and ex-Palestinian territory, en masse", but I'm still going to make you spell out all your racist assumptions and premises rather than let them be taken for granted
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Oct 1, 2016 01:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Are you telling me that a resistance organization in an occupied or conquered territory wants to overturning outsider rule and restore their own control and sovereignty over the stolen territory? Perish the thought!
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Oct 1, 2016 02:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm curious what exactly you think would happen if somehow the ANC became the sovereign authority over the entire territory of South Africa over night. Looking at the modern history of Africa, I'm having a really hard time coming up with an example of a previously repressed minority getting a hold of the levers of power that ends with, "and then everything was totally cool, no reprisals or purges of government bureaucrats, and things just kept trucking along like they had before."
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Oct 1, 2016 02:06
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Ah, South Africa, that famous middle eastern country known for its primary export of being analogous to whatever is convenient. "Yes, you see, South Africa was able to unwind its government without bloodshed." *looks nervously at Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey, etc* "That is totally a thing that will happen in this completely different situation." *across the room, Yemen continues to self-destruct*
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Oct 1, 2016 02:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm curious what exactly you think would happen if somehow the Palestinian government in the Gaza Strip became the sovereign authority over the entire territory of Israel & Palestine over night. The first question you have to ask yourself is how this hypothetical would come to be in the first place. The only possible way this could happen would be if the Israeli all decided to emigrate to somewhere else and left; therefore the Palestinians would be unable to conduct any sort of revenge against people who wouldn't be there anymore. In the meantime, you're still justifying actual past and present crimes by hypothetical future crimes.
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Oct 1, 2016 02:25
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Dead Reckoning posted:Ah, South Africa, that famous middle eastern country known for its primary export of being analogous to whatever is convenient. Hmm, it's almost as if there is something else the Israeli and South African apartheid governments have in commons. Something to do with their relationship with the USA and Western Europe.
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Oct 1, 2016 02:35
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fool_of_sound posted:Hmm, it's almost as if there is something else the Israeli and South African apartheid governments have in commons. Something to do with their relationship with the USA and Western Europe. Cat Mattress posted:I posit that everything would be fine for everyone. Cat Mattress posted:The first question you have to ask yourself is how this hypothetical would come to be in the first place. The only possible way this could happen would be if the Israeli all decided to emigrate to somewhere else and left; therefore the Palestinians would be unable to conduct any sort of revenge against people who wouldn't be there anymore.
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Oct 1, 2016 02:54
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Dead Reckoning posted:So you don't think that a militant group that suddenly found itself ruling the people it had demonized for decades would do anything like, say, try to extract wealth from the previous ruling class, engage in land transfers based on ethnic affiliation, or purge the government of bureaucrats in order to replace them with loyal members of the movement? That's a rather bold prediction, at odds with the way most similar transfers of power have gone in the 20th and 21st centuries. Edit: It's poo poo like this that makes it impossible for me to believe that you and your ilk are making your argument in good faith. You want your loving ethnonationalist state and are looking for any excuse to slaughter those who would deny you its purest form. The only thing holding you back is the reaction the world might have to the bloodshed. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 03:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm curious what exactly you think would happen if somehow the Palestinian government in the Gaza Strip became the sovereign authority over the entire territory of Israel & Palestine over night. Looking at the modern history of the Middle East, I'm having a really hard time coming up with an example of a previously repressed minority getting a hold of the levers of power that ends with, "and then everything was totally cool, no reprisals or purges of government bureaucrats, and things just kept trucking along like they had before." Didn't seem to bother anyone when the previously-oppressed Jews of Palestine rose up and seized power, becoming the sovereign power over much of Palestine after just a few short massacres, and then promptly devoted the levers of power to purging entire villages of Palestinians and expropriating considerable amount of Palestinian land and property.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:14
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Main Paineframe said that removing the Israeli government (allegedly Hamas' aim) was totally different from killing Jewish Israelis, so I asked him what exactly that would look like, even if we use the power of fiat to assume that it can be achieved without bloodshed.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:14
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Dead Reckoning posted:What, you think being reliant on the U.S. is the secret sauce to a successful transition to multi-party democracy... and we just forgot to tell the Iraqis and Iranians? Iran and Iraq were the results of installed colonialist governments failing, while South Africa was a foreign brokered settled peace between a developed nation and its own oppressed people, instigated by their economic ties to the country. Israel is closer to the latter than former.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:35
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Uh, people in this thread have repeatedly assured me that Israel is a foreign, colonialist government.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:38
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Dead Reckoning posted:Uh, people in this thread have repeatedly assured me that Israel is a foreign, colonialist government. Cool deflection
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Oct 1, 2016 03:40
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There is a hypothetical situation in which, suddenly, the extremists of a downtrodden section of the populace gains total and absolute political and military control of a highly developed, very well defended nation, starting from a position of extremely asymmetrical strength. Therefore it is hopeless to try and reconcile this great inequality so grab your tavor, hop into your merkava and lets get back to it shall we. Jesus loving Christ why are we even trying to discuss this.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:47
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fool_of_sound posted:Cool deflection Or for an even more obvious parallel, look at Israel and the Palestinians' own history. The partition plan didn't work, neither side signed on to it, the whole thing collapsed into a civil war, and afterwards both sides used state power to gently caress with and expel their ethnic/religious rivals in the territory they controlled. The most generous interpretation of calls for a return to the 1947 borders to be imposed by outside powers via economic pressure (because lol there is no reason for Israel to do it unilaterally) is to get a reset to '47, which would immediately collapse into fighting again, because none of the underlying issues have been resolved since then, and the one state solution is somehow even worse.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:Seriously though, Zimbabwe and to a lesser extent Angola are archetypal examples of negotiated settlements imposed with the help of outside powers that imploded immediately. The Zimbabwe parallels in particular are obvious: a power sharing agreement with international backing was supposed to protect the rights of the formerly-empowered minority, and the whole thing went to pieces, because it turns out that radical militant ethnic militias don't feel bound to keep their promises or make any attempt to govern with an even hand. So let's here your solution, and no the status quo is not acceptable.
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Oct 1, 2016 05:09
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Jesus loving Christ why are we even trying to discuss this. This times a million Why are we having digression about an alternate reality fanfiction scenario where the Palestinians are in control of Israel rather than vice versa as is actually the case in reality?
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Oct 1, 2016 09:06
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we live in fear of the arab race. they hate us, they've always hated us, and so we want them out of the country. israelis think if there are no more palestinians then there'll be no more terror attacks. every arab is an angry soul, they clasp inside their selves a white-hot kernel of rage just as i clasp inside my self a pink-hot kernel of sexuality also known as a clitoris, that crown of sparkling nerve stumps that delivers unto me the tidal rush of the orgasm. the pigs are in control. the pigs are in control. all exists under dominion of the pigs. ariel's unborn child sleeping in my womb is just a roast turkey dinner to the pigs. in my peach groves the pigs feast on wormy poison fruits and lie down and die in the compost slush of rotted leaves and fructose. i begin to dance and my trousers plummet to reveal a vista of winsome flesh. my peninsula is bountiful. my oceans are crisply cool. as i rotate at blinding speed my underwear decays and drops away in falls of cotton dust. time drags blunt claws across my body. my breasts sag. my buttocks deflate. and yet my vagina maintains its vigour; it waits tense and roseate for the approach of unwary prey. so i was made, so i am. so i live, so i die. i will live forever. i have already died. i am a ghost, like all my race - all ghosts, caged in a diseased and tortured history (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 1, 2016 09:16
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its annoying when you probate our prophet right in the middle of the second book of ariel smdh
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Oct 1, 2016 10:28
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Dead Reckoning posted:So you're telling me that the only way for Hamas to accomplish its stated goals without bloodshed is if all the Jews were to somehow... go away. I'm telling you your hypothetical is dumb. Even in a hypothetical one-state scenario where Israel and Palestine are politically united into a single administration, Hamas would not have complete control over it. Since the South African example often comes up, here's the first post-Apartheid South African parliament. Notice how the ANC does not have 100% of the seats. And that's with a population where the former oppressors were in a clear minority (less than 20%). The population of Israel is over 8 millions, including over 6 million Jews; that of occupied Palestine is about 5 millions, of which over half a million are settlers. You'd get a combined population of 6.683 million Jews and 6.238 million Arabs; my god does that smell like "absolute total control to Hamas for sure".
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Oct 1, 2016 10:43
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