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And then whenever a binational state is brought up every Israeli talks about "demographic issues" which would indicate their lack of commitment to democracy or equality before the law.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:29
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Cat Mattress posted:I'm telling you your hypothetical is dumb. What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:39
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The Insect Court posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land. What makes you think that any Israeli government would have interest in doing something other than allowing settlers to drive Palestinians onto worse and worse land until their abject poverty eliminates them or drives them off the land while using blockades to prevent them from accessing outside support? Even the Israeli two-state solution proposals tend to include Israeli control over the border which would allow them to continue the blockade.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:45
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The Insect Court posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land. Your worst case scenario is exactly the same as the current status quo, but with the signs reversed. Perhaps that means the current status quo is also really terrible and the ideal solution involves some kind of... whatever the opposite of a gross imbalance of power is?
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Oct 1, 2016 11:50
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The Insect Court posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land. I like this post since its an implicit admission that things are poo poo for the Palestinians.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:53
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Rigged Death Trap posted:I like this post since its an implicit admission that things are poo poo for the Palestinians. Please, pro-status quo peeps, explain to me how my fake quote is a strawman argument rather than a pithy summation.
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Oct 1, 2016 13:15
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The Insect Court posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land. What makes you imagine that Hamas would obtain power over six million Jewish Israeli without their explicit consent? What makes you think the IDF, which as far as I know is made up mostly of Jewish Israeli, some Druzes, and basically none of the Israeli Arabs, would follow Hamas' orders to exterminate the Jews? You bunch keep using absurd hypotheticals and refusing to address their absurdity. It's just dumb. And it's transparent, too: you're deliberately avoiding addressing reality, so you waste everyone's time debating fantasyland.
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Oct 1, 2016 13:40
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team overhead smash posted:This times a million Because it's a necessary premise to establish in order to use what might be my very favorite genocide excuse, "we have to keep ethnically cleansing and apartheiding them because otherwise they might someday end up in power and ethnically cleanse and apartheid us back in revenge for all the ethnic cleansing and apartheiding we did". Avshalom posted:(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)  The Insect Court posted:Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? About the same that Mohammed Morsi did in Egypt - rule ineffectually in the face of deliberate resistance at every level of the state apparatus, and then get couped and overthrown by the IDF at the first slight excuse.
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Oct 1, 2016 14:55
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Cugel the Clever posted:"Well, we can't yield even one inch—what if they were someday in a position to us what we are doing to them?!" Freepers tend to have the same logic about Obama.
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Oct 1, 2016 15:07
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Dead Reckoning posted:Seriously though, Zimbabwe and to a lesser extent Angola are archetypal examples of negotiated settlements imposed with the help of outside powers that imploded immediately. The Zimbabwe parallels in particular are obvious: a power sharing agreement with international backing was supposed to protect the rights of the formerly-empowered minority, and the whole thing went to pieces, because it turns out that radical militant ethnic militias don't feel bound to keep their promises or make any attempt to govern with an even hand. It's really sad that the only way your blind support of Israel can remain consistent is to also implicitly portray white settlers in Africa as a bunch of quaint old European farmers being victimized as soon as they lost minority control, completely sidestepping any events that transpired leading up to independence. It's a masterful exercise in context removal, because instead of talking about your ridiculous hypothetical we could be talking about atrocities committed during the hundreds of years of colonialism. I bet you'd make a straight-faced attempt to portray Cuba's involvement in Angola as Soviet imperialism lol E: And the white minority population in almost every country you listed has and continues, to this day, to mostly constitute the middle and upper class. SyHopeful fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 15:31
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Avshalom posted:we live in fear of the arab race. they hate us, they've always hated us, and so we want them out of the country. israelis think if there are no more palestinians then there'll be no more terror attacks. every arab is an angry soul, they clasp inside their selves a white-hot kernel of rage just as i clasp inside my self a pink-hot kernel of sexuality also known as a clitoris, that crown of sparkling nerve stumps that delivers unto me the tidal rush of the orgasm. the pigs are in control. the pigs are in control. all exists under dominion of the pigs. ariel's unborn child sleeping in my womb is just a roast turkey dinner to the pigs. in my peach groves the pigs feast on wormy poison fruits and lie down and die in the compost slush of rotted leaves and fructose. i begin to dance and my trousers plummet to reveal a vista of winsome flesh. my peninsula is bountiful. my oceans are crisply cool. as i rotate at blinding speed my underwear decays and drops away in falls of cotton dust. time drags blunt claws across my body. my breasts sag. my buttocks deflate. and yet my vagina maintains its vigour; it waits tense and roseate for the approach of unwary prey. so i was made, so i am. so i live, so i die. i will live forever. i have already died. i am a ghost, like all my race - all ghosts, caged in a diseased and tortured history Do not silence the prophet. The Insect Court posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land. Really a one state would need to ban parties like Jewish Home and Hamas. It would probably have to engage in illiberal means to achieve any tranquility likeley for decades upon decades.It would not be a power in the region either. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 16:32
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I don't know about this Israel-Palestine conflict but I think the US should have invited the jews to settle in America after WW2. Then the secret of how to make delicious bagels would be ours and ours alone.
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Oct 1, 2016 16:53
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we got roughly half the jews and the best bagels are made in montreal
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Oct 1, 2016 17:02
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Cranappleberry posted:I don't know about this Israel-Palestine conflict but I think the US should have invited the jews to settle in America after WW2. Then the secret of how to make delicious bagels would be ours and ours alone. Don't even be talking about bagels yo The secret is sweet delicious lox
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Oct 1, 2016 19:27
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The Insect Court posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas, an organization that was foundationally antisemitic and eliminationist and still clings to Palestinian revanchism and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, would accept entering into a parliamentary government on equal terms with Jewish Israelis? Even if we were to take this fantasy seriously, let's say that a Hamas-led coalition takes control of the new Israeltinian government. What would Hamas do with control of the IDF and all the other mechanisms of state violence? Given that it has constantly insisted on a revanchist fantasy of reclaiming every inch of land. If they control the IDF why would they have to do anything? I'd say controlling the IDF is a fait accompli. Not sure how they would achieve this. Think there might be a bit of resistance.
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Oct 1, 2016 20:15
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Main Paineframe posted:Don't even be talking about bagels yo Kosher preserved meats kick all sorts of rear end tho. Pastrami 4 lyfe
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Oct 1, 2016 21:42
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Their ancestors helped build our nation since before its founding and they really need our help! They will be just fine in the desert on appropriated land surrounded by people hate them. What could possibly go wrong? - every foreign policy guy ever
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Oct 1, 2016 22:30
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Cat Mattress posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas would obtain power over six million Jewish Israeli without their explicit consent? It couldn't, of course. Which is why one-state fantasies of a political union that could somehow come to pass without the consent of the Israeli polity are wildly infeasible. The point is if you're going to talk about a " hypothetical one-state scenario" where Hamas would exist as a political entity within said state and with the concomitant possibility of it wielding the state's monopoly on violence you can no longer just downplay the inconvenient fact that Hamas is a genocidally antisemitic terrorist organization by insisting that it has effectively no real power to carry out its plans.
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Oct 2, 2016 09:32
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The Insect Court posted:The point is if you're going to talk about a " hypothetical one-state scenario" where Hamas would exist as a political entity within said state and with the concomitant possibility of it wielding the state's monopoly on violence Otherwise, the violence monopoly will just coup them. The Insect Court posted:you can no longer just downplay the inconvenient fact that Hamas is a genocidally antisemitic terrorist organization by insisting that it has effectively no real power to carry out its plans. Likud is a genocidally racist terrorist organization and you don't mind it one bit. Again, your entire argument is "they would probably commit crimes against us if we stopped committing crimes against them".
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Oct 2, 2016 10:05
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the year 5777! a ripe-to-bursting sunwarm cherry-red jubilee of a year! sacred numbers on the deepest charts line up like lambs to a shepherd; they wheel and dive like moths in the invisible wheels of the heavens. shanah tovah, goons. shanah tovah, ariel. i take your nipple in my mouth and suckle of your powerful milk. it swells hotly in me. my tongue discovers testosterone and olive oil hiding in your udders. i milk you dry, squeezing and pulling until i'm replete with the butter of men and you're just a deflated skin lying sadly on the ground. then from their hollows in the river red gum tree i summon my friends the bees, who drool honey into your lifeless shell and inflate it back into a happy ghost with a massive erection. meanwhile i bulge with strength, my muscles billowing forth in lobular fractals. all the sweetness of the land of milk and honey can be found in our marriage. thus do i welcome the new year. blessings (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 2, 2016 10:25
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Avshalom posted:the year 5777! a ripe-to-bursting sunwarm cherry-red jubilee of a year! sacred numbers on the deepest charts line up like lambs to a shepherd; they wheel and dive like moths in the invisible wheels of the heavens. shanah tovah, goons. shanah tovah, ariel. i take your nipple in my mouth and suckle of your powerful milk. it swells hotly in me. my tongue discovers testosterone and olive oil hiding in your udders. i milk you dry, squeezing and pulling until i'm replete with the butter of men and you're just a deflated skin lying sadly on the ground. then from their hollows in the river red gum tree i summon my friends the bees, who drool honey into your lifeless shell and inflate it back into a happy ghost with a massive erection. meanwhile i bulge with strength, my muscles billowing forth in lobular fractals. all the sweetness of the land of milk and honey can be found in our marriage. thus do i welcome the new year. blessings Which admin do you have dirt on, that they let you do this?
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Oct 2, 2016 11:07
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they don't
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Oct 2, 2016 11:10
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i am a wizard
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Oct 2, 2016 11:10
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a student of the kabbalah from the moment i was born, i studied for many years in the art of lovemaking
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Oct 2, 2016 11:12
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If in a one state hypothetical, with the equality clauses that implies, Hamas is disallowed from running as a legitimate party it only stands to reason that Likud and Jewish Home be similarly barred for the same reasons as Hamas. But those are hypotheticals. And handwringing over what Hamas could do is to ignore what Israel is doing right now. You could, however, be even handed and condemn both.
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Oct 2, 2016 13:41
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Booourns posted:Which admin do you have dirt on, that they let you do this? He is a prophet. Even they cannot fully silence him, and you should not question his word. Rigged Death Trap posted:If in a one state hypothetical, with the equality clauses that implies, Hamas is disallowed from running as a legitimate party it only stands to reason that Likud and Jewish Home be similarly barred for the same reasons as Hamas. I actually suggested this. A hypothetical one state would not be a nice place but would instead be a place that would enforce peace through the repression of several groups that are at the moment main actors in the current conflict. It also probably have to destroy memorization of the Sterm gang and the Black September organization. The war of 1947 would probably have to be seen as a day of reconciliation or some such term. I am just recognizing the limitations that would come from this solution suggested by many on the left. I also recognize that increasingly because of the people in power it may be the only solution.
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Oct 2, 2016 14:47
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Crowsbeak posted:He is a prophet. Even they cannot fully silence him, and you should not question his word. You left out the Intifadas. But seriously, everyone loves comparing this conflict to South Africa. If there is anything to learn from the South African experience it is that peace was achieved through a strong and firm commitment to it. We had the truth and reconciliation commission, which gave amnesty to past wrongs and allowed people to know what happened to their loved ones. Check out the charter of the ANC, and then compare it to Hamas. The only way these sides will ever be able to coexist peacefully, has to start with a willingness to do just that and unconditionally FORGIVE past wrongs in the spirit to coexist and move further together. Not forget them. South Africa managed to do this. Let that be the South African experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Charter Hamas has to change its charter. Its core values cannot be to exterminate the people they want to coexist with. Its a complete nonstarter to any meaningful negotiations. I submit the ANC freedom charter as a suggestion.
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Oct 2, 2016 16:30
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How about you shut the gently caress up about Hamas's lovely rhetoric until you've ended Israel's atrocious actions? Should they change their wording? Sure. But it is no justification for Israel's apartheid policies.
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Oct 2, 2016 17:04
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The ANC's counterpart would be the PA, which is committed to an equitable peace through negotiations, not Hamas. Unfortunately, the PA has been undergoing a progressive political downslide for the last decade, thanks in large part to the fact that the PA's strategy of negotiation, diplomacy, and collaboration has failed to produce meaningful Israeli concessions or progress toward peace. The fact that Abbas has reacted to the decline of the PA by engaging in repression of dissidents and opposition, with the active cooperation of the IDF, is just the icing on the cake. The problem is that it doesn't matter what stance the Palestinian factions take if the Israeli side doesn't have any desire for peace or equality. The PA has preached coexistence and negotiations, and all they have to show for it is the decessiated corpse of Oslo and the infamous "security cooperation"; their policy is domestically considered to be a failure, and the Palestinian population no longer believes that Israel has any serious intention of ever pursuing peace. So the peaceful factions lose support, and the less peaceful factions gain support, despite active Israeli collaboration with the PA to suppress dissent and opposition. It's a mistake to put all the onus for demonstrating a commitment to peace on the Palestinians. Abbas has pushed for peace and negotiations, and Israel has routinely poo poo on those pushes and refused to make even token gestures of good faith, so the Palestinian people are losing faith in diplomatic solutions.
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Oct 2, 2016 17:04
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If the Hamas changed their charter to be all lovey-dovey hippie huggy, then Israel's pro-genocide brigade would jump on some other Palestinian group. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad says hello, but you could also go for the Jaljalat or the Al-Seika, or who cares which else it doesn't really matter. Israel will always have a good excuse to push its genocide agenda.
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Oct 2, 2016 17:34
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It should also be noted that Israel has routinely targeted and otherwise undermined Hamas's (relatively) moderate elements. Islamic Jihad manages to get around Hamas's enforcement of a ceasefire to lob a shell at a tree in Israel? Welp, time to strike Hamas, force them to respond, and use the ensuing exchange to justify the decimation of entire neighborhoods in Gaza that will ensure the ill-will of the populace for generations to come!
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Oct 2, 2016 17:40
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Main Paineframe posted:It's a mistake to put all the onus for demonstrating a commitment to peace on the Palestinians. Abbas has pushed for peace and negotiations, and Israel has routinely poo poo on those pushes and refused to make even token gestures of good faith, so the Palestinian people are losing faith in diplomatic solutions. The Palestinian people are in a deeply unenviable position. Even so, having governance (limited) over their territories is a huge first step to becoming fully independent. I am sure if I looked I could find concessions that Israel has made, token and otherwise. Regardless, working with Israel is their only hope of achieving true independence. In my assessment the Camp David offers were sincere. And failing to achieve an agreement because of East Jerusalem and Right of Return are poor reasons not to have an agreement. But I am so far removed from this conflict that I just don't have any emotional investment in it at all. If the Palestinian people feel that violence is their best course of action then so be it. But we will still be having this exact same conversation ten years from now. They will not achieve independence through violence. They have a chance with diplomacy, it will suck and it will hurt a lot but the path is there. Considering the tone of this thread I doubt I will post here again. The idea that Israel is actively pursing a policy of genocide I find to be just so absurd.
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Oct 2, 2016 18:04
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BattleMoose posted:Right of Return are poor reasons not to have an agreement. Nah right of return is pretty pivotal, any Palestinian would agree. Especially to those who were, and still are, classed as refugees in other countries. Fears that every single palestinian would use their right to return are as lofty as every jewish person using theirs. And the palestinians have tried diplomacy, Hamas, for all their faults, tried and upheld ,incredibly well given the fractious and decentralized nature of gazan militant groups, a ceasefire. It is completely understandable that one may resort to violence in the face of such crushing odds, demonization and the sheer unwillingness of the Israeli Government to concede anything but the most meaningless ground. And the kicker is there is nothing the Palestinians can do to change this. So long as the same people get elected, same policies upheld and enacted, the same level of international political pressure remains, nothing will change. The freedom of the palestinian people is completely out of their hands. Whether they resort to violence or peace. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 18:19
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BattleMoose posted:Considering the tone of this thread I doubt I will post here again. The idea that Israel is actively pursing a policy of genocide I find to be just so absurd. quote:If the people of Israel feel that violence is their best course of action then so be it. But we will still be having this exact same conversation ten years from now. They will not achieve security through violence. They have a chance with diplomacy, it will suck and it will hurt a lot but the path is there.
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Oct 2, 2016 18:25
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The right to return is a necessity.
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Oct 2, 2016 18:25
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Crowsbeak posted:So let's here your solution, and no the status quo is not acceptable. Panzeh posted:And then whenever a binational state is brought up every Israeli talks about "demographic issues" which would indicate their lack of commitment to democracy or equality before the law. Zulily Zoetrope posted:Your worst case scenario is exactly the same as the current status quo, but with the signs reversed. Perhaps that means the current status quo is also really terrible and the ideal solution involves some kind of... whatever the opposite of a gross imbalance of power is? Cat Mattress posted:What makes you imagine that Hamas would obtain power over six million Jewish Israeli without their explicit consent? Cat Mattress posted:The right to return is a necessity.
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Oct 2, 2016 18:46
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Dead Reckoning posted:Why? For what? Why is irredentism a good thing? LOL irredentism. Israel, the entire Zionist philosophy, is turbomegairredentism 9000. Don't begrudge the right to return of people who lived there 70 years ago when you posit that the right to return of people who allegedly lived there 2000 years ago is sacrosanct.
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Oct 2, 2016 19:28
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someone used revanchism before too lol
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Oct 2, 2016 20:02
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Cat Mattress posted:LOL irredentism. You haven't answered the question. Why is the right of return important? If it isn't irredentist in character, do you think it is unrelated to the expressed desire of Palestinians to return to and occupy lands incorporated into Israel in 1947? If, as another poster suggested, the number of people who would take advantage of it is so small as to not effect the demographics of Israel, why does it matter? Why can't Israel set a limit on the number of returnees in that case? Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 20:49
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't actually care who stole whose land when. I care about the facts on the ground as they exist right now. If you take this attitude too far, you will reward people who create 'facts on the ground' - which was the explicitly stated strategy of the Jabotinsky school and remains the official ideology of Likud.
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