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I think some of Asimov's ideas still hold up, but then I also think the Foundation books are some of the most flat, boring things I've ever tried to read. His work feels very much of a certain time and some people won't like that and that's fine.
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Oct 1, 2016 17:34
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quote:I like Big Idea science fiction, but it's not too much to ask that characters are multidimensional at the same time. Haha, this is how I imagine many of these types of complaints going. Reading is such a subjective thing sometimes and it's even worse when criticisms are made without being constructive. I mean, unless it's, like, Piers Anthony or a smashwords fanfiction I don't think it's helpful to just say 'X is poo poo read something better' and then not provide a suggestion. Give me a few examples of this stuff because I honestly am always on the lookout for great character + big idea sci-fi. Most of my enjoyment of reading comes from character exploration.
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Oct 1, 2016 18:08
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Baloogan posted:i care because i really like asimov and really hate the idea that he can be discarded offhand for not using the right pronouns Read my post instead of making up poo poo that I didn't even say
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Oct 1, 2016 19:11
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angel opportunity posted:I personally couldn't bother to read Asimov's Foundation because women were just totally absent from that world as meaningful players, and it shattered my immersion. This is Baloogan posted:i care because i really like asimov and really hate the idea that he can be discarded offhand for not using the right pronouns "Couldn't bother to read" -- discarding asimov offhand "because women were just totally absent from that world as meaningful players" -- for not using the right pronouns.
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Oct 1, 2016 19:21
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You know Asimov is dead, right? He's not going to gently caress you for defending his honour badly on the internet.
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Oct 1, 2016 19:24
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 we all have our favorite authors
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Oct 1, 2016 19:25
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I think I made it over 50% through the first Foundation book. It wasn't holding my interest, and the complete absence of women (not at all the same as 'not using the right pronouns') was a big noticeable thing to me that killed my immersion. It alone wasn't enough to make me stop reading, but it was one of the tipping points for me. Among other things I didn't at all enjoy: -"Nuclear technology" as the miracle technology that solves every single problem -The entire premise of that science that accurately predicted how empires would rise and fall -The narrative structure of jumping from one flat character to another flat character. There were probably other things but I can't recall them right now. My immersion was pretty much gone when all these things kept hitting me, and I felt like I was reading something that was "worth reading" as a historically important book to the genre rather than an actually good story. I've heard the later books get better, but I wasn't going to bother.
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Oct 1, 2016 19:28
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Just finished Death's End, and yeah, I pretty much agree with the consensus here. By the time I got to the end I was completely worn out with the main character passively watching everything end. It lost the human touch somewhere along the way, dropping the thread that made the vastness of the book's scope awe inspiring. I thought the book was great at first, but the latter half was a dreary slog.
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Oct 1, 2016 19:38
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I read the whole Foundation trilogy and enjoyed it well enough, but as a quaint sort of artifact of the time it was written. It is suuuuuuuper-dated. And that's fine. Everything Angel Opportunity says about the characters in it is correct--the flatness of the characters, the lack of women in almost any role (and there were women in almost every role, but discreetly tucked away--James Tiptree Jr aka Alice Sheldon was an Intelligence officer in WWII and later worked for the CIA for instance) and the basic premise of psychohistory requires a huge suspension of disbelief to go along with. The Robots books are better, but Asimov still has a problem writing women. He improved over time and that's good. But saying 'Asimov wasn't the greatest at writing women' isn't dismissing him entirely as an author, it's a fair criticism that leaves the rest of his works. Saying Cixin Liu likewise may not be the greatest at writing women is likewise--both of them come from cultures that marginalize women and reflect the biases of their own backgrounds, as far as I know without malice. I haven't finished Death's End yet but I plan to, if only because the whole trilogy is something very different from a lot of what English-language SF generally puts out and I enjoy the novelty of the change while still finding elements problematic. For people who find the problematic elements to be more than they want to read, that's fine too.
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Oct 1, 2016 20:28
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Nah, Foundation is loving Gold. Baloogan, you're alright.
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Oct 1, 2016 21:58
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No better way to rile up a nerd than to say you don't like a thing that they do, due to specific dealbreakers. You know when they start digging the ground of "but that shouldn't be a dealbreaker" you're dealing with a jackass. Foundation is certainly remembered for solid reasons but it shouldn't be surprising at all that it's no longer universally lovable. If it ever really was.
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Oct 1, 2016 22:15
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I, too, boil every issue in SF/F writing and portrayal of my own sex and gender and the problems therein down to whether someone is using the right letters. In my case, I prefer 'he' to have an S in front roughly 50% of the time instead of 5%, because 'he' is pretty boring with only two letters and having the third there just breaks up the monotony.
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Oct 1, 2016 23:12
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neongrey posted:No better way to rile up a nerd than to say you don't like a thing that they do, due to specific dealbreakers. You know when they start digging the ground of "but that shouldn't be a dealbreaker" you're dealing with a jackass. He argued with it and you accused him of wanting to gently caress Asimov you immature rear end. Go look in a mirror.
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Oct 1, 2016 23:33
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Echo Cian posted:I, too, boil every issue in SF/F writing and portrayal of my own sex and gender and the problems therein down to whether someone is using the right letters. Quoting this for posterity 
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Oct 2, 2016 00:07
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I used to read a lot of Salvatore as a teen, specifically Drizzt books. I love that type of pulpy action adventure stuff, it really brings me back. Picked up part one of the Gauntlgrym series and I'm enjoying it so far; it's hitting that trashy novella vibe that I've been missing for years. I'm wondering if there's stuff in this or a similar universe that's worth checking out. I've also read a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy novels, but I like the really pulpy atmosphere of the Forgotten Realms books.
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Oct 2, 2016 00:23
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angel opportunity posted:Among other things I didn't at all enjoy:
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Oct 2, 2016 00:30
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angel opportunity posted:I think I made it over 50% through the first Foundation book. It wasn't holding my interest, and the complete absence of women (not at all the same as 'not using the right pronouns') was a big noticeable thing to me that killed my immersion. It alone wasn't enough to make me stop reading, but it was one of the tipping points for me. If you'd read all three books, some of your concerns would have been addressed. There's important female characters in both Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation, and the start of F&E would have put to rest your worries about how psychohistory works. Strictly speaking, it doesn't. What's actually happening is that the Seldon Plan is being held on track by the Second Foundation, who are psychologists and mental scientists where the First Foundation are social and physical scientists. This is revealed when the Foundation are relying on advice from the Vault on how to handle what they perceive as a Seldon Crisis, only to have Seldon's image begin talking about something entirely different. In fact, at one point the continued stability of the Plan is used as evidence that it isn't actually legitimate. The narrative structure is something that can't be helped, as the book was originally written for and published in serial format. And the miracle of atomic power is just an artifact of the times; the stories were written between 1948 and 1950, when nuclear power did seem to be The Future.
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Oct 2, 2016 00:50
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Verisimilidude posted:I used to read a lot of Salvatore as a teen, specifically Drizzt books. I love that type of pulpy action adventure stuff, it really brings me back. Picked up part one of the Gauntlgrym series and I'm enjoying it so far; it's hitting that trashy novella vibe that I've been missing for years. I'm wondering if there's stuff in this or a similar universe that's worth checking out. I've also read a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy novels, but I like the really pulpy atmosphere of the Forgotten Realms books. When in doubt, go Gemmell. Dude wrote some amazing pulp.
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Oct 2, 2016 00:57
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Verisimilidude posted:I used to read a lot of Salvatore as a teen, specifically Drizzt books. I love that type of pulpy action adventure stuff, it really brings me back. Picked up part one of the Gauntlgrym series and I'm enjoying it so far; it's hitting that trashy novella vibe that I've been missing for years. I'm wondering if there's stuff in this or a similar universe that's worth checking out. I've also read a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy novels, but I like the really pulpy atmosphere of the Forgotten Realms books. If you've never read Fritz Leiber then you are missing out. He's my first go to recommendation. Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser is the first. You could also check out Imaro.
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Oct 2, 2016 01:09
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Buca di Bepis posted:He argued with it and you accused him of wanting to gently caress Asimov you immature rear end. Go look in a mirror. Gosh, boys are oversensitive these days. e: more to the point the problem with any claim that something was more appropriate in the time that it was created are ultimately non sequitorial. it would be a non sequitur even if the first woman was born the day after asimov died (and even when he was including women, he rarely handled them well). we're not taking in this media in the time it was created, we're taking it in now, and yes, that does, should, and will influence the way in which we view things. and the best way to get a nerd to throw a temper tantrum is to suggest that this is the case, because they will immediately act as though the poor author desperately needs their work defended from the big mean baddies who just don't understaaaaaand. as if it's somehow taking away from the significance of the work to have an opinion of the modern time. neongrey fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 01:19
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Is anyone familiar with Matt Ruff? I don't know if I saw a recommend in here or what, but I just read Lovecraft Country in like one sitting and I really really liked it. Just wondering if anyone has read some of his other stuff and if it's any good.
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Oct 2, 2016 01:22
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A Proper Uppercut posted:Is anyone familiar with Matt Ruff? I don't know if I saw a recommend in here or what, but I just read Lovecraft Country in like one sitting and I really really liked it. Just wondering if anyone has read some of his other stuff and if it's any good. I'ev only read his Set This House In Order and I enjoyed it. It was written well. If you are one of those "...but I guessed the twist from a mile away therefore this book fuckin' sucks" nerd assholes then maybe it isn't the book for you, but I thought all of the characters were pretty interesting. It was a nice character-driven story with a unique-ish bent. I had no idea he was more than a one pump chump author, so it's nice to hear he has other books that are apparently enjoyable. I'll definitely check out Lovecraft County. Thanks for reminding me of this author.
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Oct 2, 2016 02:58
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A Proper Uppercut posted:Is anyone familiar with Matt Ruff? I don't know if I saw a recommend in here or what, but I just read Lovecraft Country in like one sitting and I really really liked it. Just wondering if anyone has read some of his other stuff and if it's any good. I've read Set This House and Bad Monkeys and really enjoyed both of them. I also read Lovecraft Country out of the library and it had this wonderful pulp-era binding with four-color illustrations on it. I have Mirage in my TBR and it should be good fun too. Anyway yes, he's usually a pretty good time, but if you hate twists you might see coming he's not the right guy.
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Oct 2, 2016 04:03
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occamsnailfile posted:I've read Set This House and Bad Monkeys and really enjoyed both of them. I also read Lovecraft Country out of the library and it had this wonderful pulp-era binding with four-color illustrations on it. I have Mirage in my TBR and it should be good fun too. Anyway yes, he's usually a pretty good time, but if you hate twists you might see coming he's not the right guy. Yea, seeing a twist ahead of time doesn't bother me. Just on the strength of what I've read I think I'll definitely check out his other stuff.
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Oct 2, 2016 05:03
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I liked pretty much everything I've read by Ruff, but I think the thread hated him for some reason, idk.
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Oct 2, 2016 07:16
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Baloogan posted:his robots have depth! You realize that these aren't particularly cogent defenses of the Foundation series in particular, right?
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Oct 2, 2016 07:26
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Psychohistory? How come Asimov didn't write about psychoherstory????????
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Oct 2, 2016 07:46
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Hedrigall posted:Psychohistory? How come Asimov didn't write about psychoherstory???????? I thought the 'psycho' in the name implied that it was? 
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Oct 2, 2016 07:59
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A larger problem with scifi is how quickly it becomes outdated by actual technology. The 8 mb memory in Neuromancer is my favorite. The progress in data science is something largely unanticipated by scifi writers who mostly did rocket scifi which at least to me have outdated a lot of the older scifi.
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Oct 2, 2016 08:18
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Not just technology. Sweeping epics claiming to explain the rise and fall of empires are very much out of favour in real history at the moment.
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Oct 2, 2016 08:27
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Octavia Butler's 4 book Patternist series is in today's kindle daily deal. I'm guessing it is easily worth the $2, any reviews?
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Oct 2, 2016 18:01
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Cardiac posted:A larger problem with scifi is how quickly it becomes outdated by actual technology. The 8 mb memory in Neuromancer is my favorite. The big problem for me with most classic space opera is that is that once I read the Charles Stross space opera and understood how FTL travel breaks causality and relativity, anything with casual FTL is really hard to keep the suspension of disbelief going.
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Oct 2, 2016 18:08
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bagrada posted:Octavia Butler's 4 book Patternist series is in today's kindle daily deal. I'm guessing it is easily worth the $2, any reviews? Safety Biscuits posted:Are you sure? I just did some quick googling and I think the tie-in is the old translation; Bill Johnston's version is only in audiobook or Kindle.
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Oct 2, 2016 18:10
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bagrada posted:Octavia Butler's 4 book Patternist series is in today's kindle daily deal. I'm guessing it is easily worth the $2, any reviews? The Lilith's Brood series is far stronger, but the Patternist bundle is worth it for Wild Seed alone. The others are only all right, but Wild Seed is among her best works. She wrote it around the same time as Kindred, and it shows (in a good way). It's when Butler broke through the learning curve and mastered the novel. The problem is, they packaged the books according to the story timeline rather than publication order, so it ends up with her weakest book (her first published novel) as the last one. Reading them in the order they're arranged in that compilation makes each book anticlimactic to the one preceeding it. Publication order is Patternmaster, Mind of My Mind, Survivor (not included in that ebook), Wild Seed, and Clay's Ark. I recommend reading them in publication order, and not worrying about the missing book. It's been out of print, on Butler's request, since original publication because she was incredibly unhappy with it, so you'll be hard pressed to find it anyway. The last two books worked to humanize the characters/races in the previous books. In fact, Clay's Ark is almost written as an apology for not considering the PoV of the bestial humans in Patternmaster. This makes it doubly hard to get into Patternmaster if you read it after Clay's Ark, and makes the latter seem like a total sidetrack because there's no context for adding beast-humans into the mix if you read them in chronological order. Wild Seed fleshes out a character in Mind of My Mind so much that reading the former first makes the latter anticlimactic as well. Actually my recommended order would be almost reverse chronological: Patternmaster, Mind of My Mind, Clay's Ark, Wild Seed. That way you get a nice arc where every book is better than the last. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 19:19
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Cardiac posted:A larger problem with scifi is how quickly it becomes outdated by actual technology. The 8 mb memory in Neuromancer is my favorite.  (Spirit by Darwyn Cooke)
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Oct 2, 2016 21:07
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Just finished Death's End. I liked it a lot and appreciated the ideas in the book. Spoilers, but a short piece by the author about some choices he made writing it: http://www.tor.com/2016/09/20/chinese-literature-and-apocalyptic-sf-some-notes-on-deaths-end/
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Oct 3, 2016 02:50
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I finished Dark Intelligence by Neal Asher. Not great. I'm wondering if that's par for course for him, or not near his best work.
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Oct 3, 2016 02:53
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holocaust bloopers posted:I finished Dark Intelligence by Neal Asher. Not read that one, it's sort of recent, right? If you really want an asher book to read, check out his Spatterjay series.
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Oct 3, 2016 02:59
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holocaust bloopers posted:I finished Dark Intelligence by Neal Asher. I got all of three pages into "The Voyage of the Sable Keech" before I literally threw it into a wall. I'm gonna say par for the course.
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Oct 3, 2016 03:00
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Drifter posted:Not read that one, it's sort of recent, right? Yea recent as in the past year or so. I'll revisit his work here at some point. There's too much other stuff to read.
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Oct 3, 2016 03:05
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