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JFairfax posted:I'm talking about the sort of one party state where other parties are outlawed. I do question the extent to which this actually makes a meaningful difference. In the United States any political party outside of Democrats and Republicans are defacto outlawed, even if not literally, because the rules regarding political parties are explicitly designed to make competition impossible. While two-is-still-better-than-one sounds good in theory, when one of these unsinkable ships is turning into a massive dumpster fire that's uh, not good. Which incidentally is one reason why people hate Hillary. The very unquestioned nature of her existence at the top of the Democratic ticket is proof that we have way fewer options to meaningful change our government than we like to pretend. Presidential Elections in general are often not as a good bellwether of a country's democratic inclinations as we like to think, because they massively favor whoever happens to have name recognition, and the ability to gain name recognition is not necessarily presumptive of competence. Sure it gave us Hillary. But by the same token it also gave us Trump.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:25
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that would discard quite a lot of those entries from the list, since even some of the absolute monarchies on the list have competing political parties
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Oct 5, 2016 03:25
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JFairfax posted:I'm talking about the sort of one party state where other parties are outlawed. Ah, so your idea of democracy really is nothing but the act of choosing a party to rule you.
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Oct 5, 2016 04:16
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HorseLord posted:Ah, so your idea of democracy really is nothing but the act of choosing a party to rule you. Not really, and what my idea of democracy is, is frankly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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Oct 5, 2016 04:31
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JFairfax posted:Not really, and what my idea of democracy is, is frankly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. hilldawg haters have a problem with every part of american politics/governance so it's all fair game
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Oct 5, 2016 04:32
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There are large parts of the American democracy that are admirable and inspirational, also plenty that is reprehensible. Conceptually America is up there with the best things humanity has created, a true product of the enlightenment. It's just that the theory has been spoiled by people.
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Oct 5, 2016 04:38
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HorseLord posted:Ah, so your idea of democracy really is nothing but the act of choosing a party to rule you. That does tend to be the way we define it, yeah. Which doesn't make sense on all sorts of levels. Japan had single-party rule throughout the Cold War. So did the United States, at least when it came to the House of Representatives. But no one ever considers these blemishes to the idea of Western democracy when so many of our elections are mere formalities, and the ones that aren't (say Brexit) have potentially disastrous consequences far beyond the purview of the average voter. I used to think parliamentary systems might be better, but I've been astounded to read the UKMT thread and discover that it is somehow possible for the elected representatives of a political party to be radically at odds with what the actual members of the political party want. And that's only a result of recent changes making it more possible for normal Labour Party members to have a vote in leadership. Who knows how big this schism was in the past, it's just no one ever noticed because there were no elections to gauge popular support. The meaning of "democracy" is even muddier the farther back you go. The vast majority British soldiers in World War I couldn't vote, and the war persisted despite massive unpopularity until the German surrender, yet somehow the British represented "Democracy" in that conflict. Given all that, it's little surprise that our use of words like dictatorship today are so nonsensical. Sure, we can say that Erdogan is moving Turkey to fascism. But does anyone seriously believe that if the military coup had worked, and completely undermined civilian control of the armed forces, that the resulting state would somehow be better than anything Erdogan is doing right now? Words like democracy and dictatorship are more catchall terms for "thing I like" and "thing I don't like" than they are words with actual coherent meaning. And so it is with Hillary. Because "Hillary" is a simple known quantity, either of pathological communist evil (for conservatives) or relentless selling out to neo-political causes (for liberals). That these two identities are completely mutually incompatible is rather besides the point. "Hillary" is not an actual person, but a mythological representation of the American political system. And given that we're not allowed to hate America, it's little wonder people are more comfortable hating Hillary instead.
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Oct 5, 2016 04:40
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Bip Roberts posted:hilldawg haters have a problem with every part of american politics/governance so it's all fair game There are plenty of things wrong with our political system. Big money in politics is a big one.
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Oct 5, 2016 06:03
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Some Guy TT posted:I used to think parliamentary systems might be better, but I've been astounded to read the UKMT thread and discover that it is somehow possible for the elected representatives of a political party to be radically at odds with what the actual members of the political party want. And that's only a result of recent changes making it more possible for normal Labour Party members to have a vote in leadership. Who knows how big this schism was in the past, it's just no one ever noticed because there were no elections to gauge popular support. the tradition of internal party democracy is deeply alien to Westminster systems - instead the traditional conventions favour and reward strong party discipline that can form strong executives. the great success of parliamentarism is forcing constituencies to choose between a representative to advocate their narrow interests versus other constituencies, versus a representative to advocate their national interests. Invariably those inclined toward the former will, in some rough and ready fashion, be steadily subordinated to the latter, in the form of humiliating defeats and sidelining; this is how consent is manufactured for a national narrative of the country at large making a choice. Legitimate governance emerges from parliament rather than being imported from civil society to parliament via elections; hence an acceptance of a deep fusion of powers (right down to the promise of executive power being used to keep legislators in line), a longstanding abhorrence of extraparliamentary struggle, etc etc in a sense MPs are not really "there" for their constituents, never mind their party members at large likewise with e.g. whipping, which is an integral part of parliamentary governance and yet is always a hidden, sketchy part of the process the UK has been steadily moving away from its eponymous system, which is vividly demonstrated in expectations of internal party democratic procedure. Which is to be expected - every other part of the empire has been accreting their own variants on Westminster; why shouldn't the UK?
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Oct 5, 2016 07:07
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I haven't payed attention to this thread in the past couple days but I just tried to register to vote online. They wanted to know my address the last time I voted. That was like 16 years ago, I don't remember that poo poo. What a load of bullshit. The American electoral system is even more broken than I thought.
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Oct 5, 2016 07:13
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JFairfax posted:There are large parts of the American democracy that are admirable and inspirational, also plenty that is reprehensible. this I agree with , in a big way
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Oct 5, 2016 07:15
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holy crap I just realized this thread is 12 pages wtf
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Oct 5, 2016 07:32
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America is the land of plenty. Only they let the rich people put the plenty in big vaults. So now you have the most powerful nation on the planet, containing within it, whole failed cities and people dying of easily treatable diseases. It's amazing how the dream was allowed to slip through the peoples fingers.
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Oct 5, 2016 07:40
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Regarde Aduck posted:America is the land of plenty. Only they let the rich people put the plenty in big vaults. So now you have the most powerful nation on the planet, containing within it, whole failed cities and people dying of easily treatable diseases. It's amazing how the dream was allowed to slip through the peoples fingers. Yeah because no other nation on earth has whole failed cities and people dying of easily treatable diseases. It's amazing how humans love to blame other humans.
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Oct 5, 2016 07:45
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gnarlyhotep posted:holy crap I just realized this thread is 12 pages People like talking about movies. Also dictatorships. Hillary's kind of an afterthought. By the way I like the thread's title. I keep reading it in Jerry Seinfeld's voice. "And what's the deal with people who hate Hillary? Is it the pantsuit? Now I gotta admit, it's not high fashion, but it's not like regular suits are all that great. You ever go to a party and confuse the Senator with a waiter? Because I'm telling you, it is not a good time."
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Oct 5, 2016 07:45
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Some Guy TT posted:People like talking about movies. Also dictatorships. Hillary's kind of an afterthought. I'm getting the idea that the whole thing is kind of an afterthought.
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Oct 5, 2016 07:50
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gnarlyhotep posted:I'm getting the idea that the whole thing is kind of an afterthought. The thread spiraled into a long derail related to tankies. There's some answers to your question in there but it's probably not worth reading and this discussion has probably run its course.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:06
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Lightning Knight posted:The thread spiraled into a long derail related to tankies. There's some answers to your question in there but it's probably not worth reading and this discussion has probably run its course. wtf is tankies
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Oct 5, 2016 08:08
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gnarlyhotep posted:wtf is tankies It's kind of a catch all term for authoritarian leftists, anti-Western imperialism advocates who decide they would rather support Russian or Chinese imperialism as a counterbalance, Stalin apologists, etc. It's usually a pejorative. Reading the thread would explain but also probably be a waste of time.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:14
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Lightning Knight posted:Reading the thread would explain but also probably be a waste of time. That I can agree with. Lightning Knight posted:It's kind of a catch all term for authoritarian leftists We don't have that in the US, that's something you European types have that I wish we had. The closest thing we have here is a bunch of loud youngsters.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:18
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gnarlyhotep posted:That I can agree with. I live in Wisconsin, bro. Also they totally are a thing, they just tend to be confined more to the Internet and yes, more common in the other parts of the Western world. It's very fascinating ideology that I have common ground with here and there, but it tends to collapse in my eyes in the face of its own willingness to embrace accelerationism and jump into the arms of any dictator as long as he's willing to stand against the US.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:21
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So basically people in the US hate Hillary because she's the independant woman?
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Oct 5, 2016 08:27
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gnarlyhotep posted:So basically people in the US hate Hillary because she's the independant woman? A lot of people do. Some hate her because they're conservative and she's the boogeywoman to them. There are valid criticisms of her from the left but a lot of people internalize right-wing propaganda and use that to prop up their valid points, tainting the whole process. At the end of the day though, Hillary won't be any worse than Obama and she'll probably be better than Bill. She won't be perfect and everything won't be fixed, but the sky won't fall either.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:31
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I just love the fact that there are so many men out there who poo poo their pants because a woman might be president. AHHAHA what a bunch of loving idiots! Like it matters who's president. The rich make policy regardless.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:39
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Make D&D Great Again (by gassing this terrible thread)
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Oct 5, 2016 10:06
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Na-fuckin-Cl up in this thread, Jesus.
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Oct 5, 2016 13:43
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gnarlyhotep posted:I just love the fact that there are so many men out there who poo poo their pants because a woman might be president. AHHAHA what a bunch of loving idiots! They don't "poo poo their pants", they just declare that something about her just "doesn't look presidential". It's like when a cop murders a black guy for being black - what you hear on the cameras isn't "holy poo poo a black guy, let's kill him", it's "that guy looks mighty suspicious, based entirely on his appearance I bet he's a bad dude, let's go gently caress with him".
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Oct 5, 2016 15:36
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 Hilary should ditch the pantsuit
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Oct 5, 2016 15:54
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JFairfax posted:
Nah, it's what makes her American as gently caress. That and drone strikes. 
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Oct 5, 2016 16:16
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woke wedding drone posted:"Tee hee what if I voted for Trump?" --"jokers" who would rat out their own moms when the death squads came What's with the childish assumption that Trump is going to be Mega Hitler and not just an empty suit through which GOP talking points come out
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Oct 5, 2016 20:07
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call to action posted:What's with the childish assumption that Trump is going to be Mega Hitler and not just an empty suit through which GOP talking points come out I mean there's a really good chance he's lying about his full hitler policy proposals but is he lying because he actually wants to go double hitler?
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Oct 5, 2016 20:12
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call to action posted:What's with the childish assumption that Trump is going to be Mega Hitler and not just an empty suit through which GOP talking points come out Good point. I'm voting Trump now. After all, he's not REALLY going to be Hitler even though everything he says suggests he is a fascist.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:21
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Mind_Taker posted:Good point. I'm voting Trump now. After all, he's not REALLY going to be Hitler even though everything he says suggests he is a fascist. I guess I just don't think there's enough evidence to preemptively call a worthless reality star "Hitler", especially when his competition has ordered drone strikes, and he called a woman fat. I get that's basically the same thing to representationalist liberals, but I strongly disagree.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:25
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I hate Hillary Clinton solely because of her shrill voice. I understand why Americans have to vote for her, but gently caress you all for forcing me to listen to her seagull-like screech for the next four years. I also understand why Bill cheated because if I had to come home to that shriek every day for 40 years I would too.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:26
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call to action posted:I guess I just don't think there's enough evidence to preemptively call a worthless reality star "Hitler", especially when his competition has ordered drone strikes, and he called a woman fat. Bip Roberts posted:I mean there's a really good chance he's lying about his full hitler policy proposals but is he lying because he actually wants to go double hitler? well trump has you know actually has a policy of forcibly deporting millions of people. also his shtick about law and order, stop and search really makes me think he'll come down super authoritarian internally.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:26
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Mind_Taker posted:Good point. I'm voting Trump now. After all, he's not REALLY going to be Hitler even though everything he says suggests he is a fascist. Trump is undoubtedly a self-centered prick who only gives a poo poo about money, but that reeeeeally doesn't equal "fascist". I really think people WANT him to be Hitler so they can bravely state to the world that they are ANTI-HITLER when in reality Trump isn't much different than any other self-interested republican businessman.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:29
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Trump is a horrible fascist piece of poo poo and as we know from the Dubya and Barry years America likes electing fascist pieces of poo poo who casually murder people on the basis of skin colour so all the fears of a Trump presidency are actually real, immediate and pressing fears but a Hillary presidency will also involve such things, they'll just take place in irrelevant corners of the middle east and asia so that's the main thing really. Trump is bad. Hillary is still bad, but less bad. The people who think criticising Hillary is an endorsement of Trump are setting up a false dichotomy. That's my hot take.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:32
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Secular Humanist posted:Trump is undoubtedly a self-centered prick who only gives a poo poo about money, but that reeeeeally doesn't equal "fascist". I really think people WANT him to be Hitler so they can bravely state to the world that they are ANTI-HITLER when in reality Trump isn't much different than any other self-interested republican businessman. They're probably calling him a fascist given his long running tendency to encourage visitors to violence among his followers and stated desire to purge America of the undesirables who are holding us back.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:33
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JFairfax posted:well trump has you know actually has a policy of forcibly deporting millions of people. So the current regime of forced deportation, more under Obama than any other president, and continuing use of stop-and-frisk (something which has been going on for years) is OK, but continuing that under a Republican is bad. Got it.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:33
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trump wants to deport every illegal, like millions of them, in one go. not to mention banning a whole religious group from entering the country.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:34
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