PYF Dark Enlightenment Thinker

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InediblePenguin: Sep 27, 2004; I'm strong. And a giant penguin. Please don't eat me. No, really. Don't try.

space colonization spearheaded by One Heroic Man vs sweeping societal change effected by everyone? nahhh only one of those feeds into our preexisting mythos about how the world works

# ? Oct 5, 2016 19:26

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# ? May 9, 2024 18:11

I Killed GBS: Jun 2, 2011; by Lowtax

uber_stoat posted:

all the gibbering about space colonization seems sorta irrelevant to me given that most of the human race is going be scraped off the face of reality by climate change in a relatively short span of time. spending time and money figuring out a way to make habitable a barren rock rather than making an effort to preserve the place where the human race evolved, that seems like an extremely stupid way to go about things, but hey if I'm so smart why aren't I rich?

things like mining asteroids seems like a more valid focus for space adventures, considering you could hollow the whole thing out instead of digging giant pits here on the place we live

# ? Oct 5, 2016 19:33

BobHoward: Feb 13, 2012; The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

I Killed GBS posted:

things like mining asteroids seems like a more valid focus for space adventures, considering you could hollow the whole thing out instead of digging giant pits here on the place we live

In the short term, asteroid mining is of questionable real world utility. You have to expend hilarious amounts of energy to get each kg of mass back to earth. When you start accounting for that, digging giant pits should have less environmental impact. In the long term, maybe you hypothetically build out a giant space economy so that offplanet energy sources can be used too, but omfg the up front costs. That happen decades before you start to see return on investment.

Also the easiest way to deliver mined mass back to Earth substitutes 1:1 for an orbital nuke launching platform (see: another Heinlein book which gets kinda ranty, "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress").

# ? Oct 5, 2016 19:46

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

uber_stoat posted:

all the gibbering about space colonization seems sorta irrelevant to me given that most of the human race is going be scraped off the face of reality by climate change in a relatively short span of time. spending time and money figuring out a way to make habitable a barren rock rather than making an effort to preserve the place where the human race evolved, that seems like an extremely stupid way to go about things, but hey if I'm so smart why aren't I rich?

Manned spaceflight is kinda pointless right now but unmanned spaceflight is super important for science, and that science can (and often is) used to solve the world's problems or advance our knowledge of earth systems. We've learned a ton about how atmospheric systems work by observing Venus and Mars for example.

I Killed GBS posted:

things like mining asteroids seems like a more valid focus for space adventures, considering you could hollow the whole thing out instead of digging giant pits here on the place we live

Asteroids don't just have like, rich veins of ore though. They never went through the planetary processes that concentrate things like erosion/sedimentation so even though they have more rare earth and precious metals by weight than the surface of the earth they aren't conglomerated together much so you'd basically need space miners capable of extracting the few PPM of useful elements dispersed fairly evenly through all the tons and tons of iron and silicon. I don't think it will be economically viable until we're past the point where we're collecting and reprocessing the dirt on the side of highways for the tiny platinum particles released by catalytic converters or something like that.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 20:07

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

Also while it would be cool to have a lot more investment in stopping climate change, I don't really want people like Musk coming up with ways to "fix" the climate because I'm guessing the Silicon Valley solution will be something like "ignore all the environmental regulations aiming to stem CO2 and pollution emissions because they're outdated and can't keep up with our libertarian technofuture ideas and instead geo-engineer the earth to be cooler some other way like spraying aerosols in the stratosphere"

# ? Oct 5, 2016 20:14

Laserjet 4P: Mar 28, 2005; What does it mean?; Fun Shoe

ate all the Oreos posted:

Also while it would be cool to have a lot more investment in stopping climate change, I don't really want people like Musk coming up with ways to "fix" the climate because I'm guessing the Silicon Valley solution will be something like "ignore all the environmental regulations aiming to stem CO2 and pollution emissions because they're outdated and can't keep up with our libertarian technofuture ideas and instead geo-engineer the earth to be cooler some other way like spraying aerosols in the stratosphere"

Or Snowpiercer.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 20:16

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

It would be nice if we could come up with a more efficient way of attaining escape velocity than burning massive piles of solid fuel, but that's a ways off (and it doesn't sound like the guy is focused on anything but more efficient ways of burning said fuel.) Of course beyond that the big problems with longterm manned space travel are things like the effects of long term weightlessness or low-G environments, increased exposure to radiation, etc.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 20:38

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

uber_stoat posted:

all the gibbering about space colonization seems sorta irrelevant to me given that most of the human race is going be scraped off the face of reality by climate change in a relatively short span of time. spending time and money figuring out a way to make habitable a barren rock rather than making an effort to preserve the place where the human race evolved, that seems like an extremely stupid way to go about things, but hey if I'm so smart why aren't I rich?

While climate change should be science's #1 priority now, I'm not aware that even the most pessimistic forecasts (Sandifer excluded) have "most of the human race" being killed off. It's not The Apocalypse so much as life getting harder for everyone.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 20:40

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Yeah, I don't want to downplay climate change but it seems like there is confusion between "the weather gets shittier and hotter which causes a shitload more problems than you might immediately expect" and "Earth literally becomes Venus and everyone dies horribly."

But the end of civilization due to our own sins is, of course, also a cultural narrative people are fond of.

You could also argue that ecological research in spaceflight projects could lead to spinoffs that, in turn, could rehabilitate Earth (instead of, of course, the Just Leave It Alone And Be Good way of thinking, which, again, cultural narrative appeal) and while there are going to be losses, the losses may be reparable.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 20:45

The Vosgian Beast: Aug 13, 2011; Business is slow

You could argue that MIRI's true function is to funnel at least some of Peter Thiel's money into something that is only useless and doesn't actively make the world a worse place to live in.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 21:11

MC Nietzche: Oct 26, 2004; by exmarx

The Vosgian Beast posted:

You could argue that MIRI's true function is to funnel at least some of Peter Thiel's money into something that is only useless and doesn't actively make the world a worse place to live in.

Truly effective altruism.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 21:25

uber_stoat: Jan 21, 2001; Pillbug

Nessus posted:

Yeah, I don't want to downplay climate change but it seems like there is confusion between "the weather gets shittier and hotter which causes a shitload more problems than you might immediately expect" and "Earth literally becomes Venus and everyone dies horribly."

But the end of civilization due to our own sins is, of course, also a cultural narrative people are fond of.

You could also argue that ecological research in spaceflight projects could lead to spinoffs that, in turn, could rehabilitate Earth (instead of, of course, the Just Leave It Alone And Be Good way of thinking, which, again, cultural narrative appeal) and while there are going to be losses, the losses may be reparable.

I'm not thinking Venus really. I'm thinking more along the lines of systemic collapse that occurs when the amount of energy needed to put out the fires climate change has started outstrips society's ability to keep up. Water dries up, crops fail, can't fish because all the fish are dead, rising seas, cascading failure of critical infrastructure. Then your good old friends the 4 Horsemen show up, with the massive population transfers and all the fun plagues and famines and wars that tend to accompany them.

I mean poo poo, there are places in the Middle East that are borderline uninhabitable due to high temps right now, and its only going to get worse. And when it does, are those people going to sit in place and boil alive or are they going to head northwest. Think the response to Syrian refugees is extreme, just you wait.

I do tend towards pessimism, yes. Hopefully Robot God will arrive in time to save us.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 22:30

ikanreed: Sep 25, 2009; I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

uber_stoat posted:

I'm not thinking Venus really. I'm thinking more along the lines of systemic collapse that occurs when the amount of energy needed to put out the fires climate change has started outstrips society's ability to keep up. Water dries up, crops fail, can't fish because all the fish are dead, rising seas, cascading failure of critical infrastructure. Then your good old friends the 4 Horsemen show up, with the massive population transfers and all the fun plagues and famines and wars that tend to accompany them.

I mean poo poo, there are places in the Middle East that are borderline uninhabitable due to high temps right now, and its only going to get worse. And when it does, are those people going to sit in place and boil alive or are they going to head northwest. Think the response to Syrian refugees is extreme, just you wait.

I do tend towards pessimism, yes. Hopefully Robot God will arrive in time to save us.

And this is an incorrect assessment of how it will play out.

For example "Crops fail" suggests that there will be these radical differences between the yields farmers expect on a given year. Having such a thing happen worldwide would be utterly disastrous and wipe our a massive chunk of the human civilization exactly as you imply. However, the negative impacts on agriculture will be far more diffuse. The currently most arable land on the planet will experience a gradual decrease in yields. On the order of a few percent per decade. The economic costs and potential social strain that represents are huge, but there will never be a moment where a disaster happens.

The international panel on climate change regular publishes a impact assessment report that summarizes the scientific assessment of the consequences of various temperature changes in terms politicians can understand. I'd recommend skimming it. Understanding why climate change is bad is a bit like understanding why 1 5% reduction in GDP in one year is bad.

# ? Oct 5, 2016 23:16

BornAPoorBlkChild: Sep 24, 2012

uber_stoat posted:

Mars colony in 2024. They gonna make it happen. Money solves everything.

calling it now: non-whites/asians get left behind

in somewhat related news

https://twitter.com/Beschizza/status/783722383278501888

https://twitter.com/ianstalk/status/783724110224486400

https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/status/783726753357312000

https://twitter.com/sbpdl/status/783750318324584448

i dare somebody to buy the book :v:

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:48

The Vosgian Beast: Aug 13, 2011; Business is slow

Who are these people and why on earth should anyone care

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:59

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

Race Realists posted:

i dare somebody to buy the book

I'm a cheap bastard but I'm strongly considering it.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:07

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

The Vosgian Beast posted:

Who are these people and why on earth should anyone care

One of them was the first man to break the sound barrier, the rest of them seem to be anonymous jerks he's naively responding to for some reason

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:08

The Vosgian Beast: Aug 13, 2011; Business is slow

ate all the Oreos posted:

One of them was the first man to break the sound barrier, the rest of them seem to be anonymous jerks he's naively responding to for some reason

What happened to Buzz Aldrin just punching dudes

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:42

BornAPoorBlkChild: Sep 24, 2012

Woolie Wool posted:

I'm a cheap bastard but I'm strongly considering it.

Please also buy his books on Detroit (and how its Those People's fault). I just want to see his garbage that he has the audacity to call a book get thrashed by someone with an actual grasp on ~~reality~~ history

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:59

Fututor Magnus: Feb 22, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

I guess people stopped giving a poo poo about him for a minute

https://twitter.com/paxdickinson/status/783669143044288512

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:12

I Killed GBS: Jun 2, 2011; by Lowtax

Joke's on them, 4chan splinters at the drop of a hat

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:18

Sit on my Jace: Sep 9, 2016

PYF Dark Enlightenment Thinker:

The Vosgian Beast posted:

Who are these people and why on earth should anyone care

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:47

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Fututor Magnus posted:

I guess people stopped giving a poo poo about him for a minute

https://twitter.com/paxdickinson/status/783669143044288512

Welfare queen, alimony bro and professional floorshitter try to buy a notoriously unprofitable website, wonderful.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 07:18

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

fatherboxx posted:

So a welfare queen, alimony bro and professional floorshitter try to buy a notoriously unprofitable website...

# ? Oct 6, 2016 07:20

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

Race Realists posted:

Please also buy his books on Detroit (and how its Those People's fault). I just want to see his garbage that he has the audacity to call a book get thrashed by someone with an actual grasp on ~~reality~~ history

I wasn't paying good enough attention, I'm guessing he doesn't actually mean "Whitey on the Moon" in the same bitter, mocking sense that Gil-Scott Herron used?

Oh god he's blaming black people for the death of the space program. :negative:

You're on your own there, buddy. I ain't touching this poo poo. I would have gladly read a book about racial discrimination in the space program, but this is going to give me brain cancer.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 15:22

The Vosgian Beast: Aug 13, 2011; Business is slow

I think my favorite "Pax Dickinson wants attention" moment was when he came out as having run the alt-right dad joke twitter account @jokeocracy, and he expected people to act like he had just come out as Banksy just because the account was semi-popular amongst racists

# ? Oct 6, 2016 15:30

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

Woolie Wool posted:

I wasn't paying good enough attention, I'm guessing he doesn't actually mean "Whitey on the Moon" in the same bitter, mocking sense that Gil-Scott Herron used?

Oh god he's blaming black people for the death of the space program.

You're on your own there, buddy. I ain't touching this poo poo. I would have gladly read a book about racial discrimination in the space program, but this is going to give me brain cancer.

Obama cut the NASA fund and whitey's on the moon,
It's all his fault our program's done and whitey's on the moon

# ? Oct 6, 2016 16:09

The Vosgian Beast: Aug 13, 2011; Business is slow

I Killed GBS posted:

he hasn't even seen the show has he

So does Luke Cage go the Winter Soldier route and have murdering cops be Skrull infiltrators sowing dissent between blacks and cops or

# ? Oct 6, 2016 16:22

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.; Buglord

Peel posted:

I'm a big fan of space colonisation, but I'd have a lot more respect for Musk's talk about it if he was funding research on all the other much more generally important technical obstacles with the same vigor that he makes minor improvements to rocketry (is he? I haven't investigated because all I hear about him doing is minor improvements to rocketry wrapped in adventurous rhetoric).

There's a reasonable argument that the romance of manned spaceflight is an advert for the space program in general even if manned spaceflight isn't yet very practical or important, but it loses its force a little when the rocket romantics have grown up and have billions of dollars to invest and want to waste it on Martian suicide missions.

According to someone in YOSPOS every time NASA interacts with SpaceX/Elon Musk it's becuae they hosed up something that was already solved in the 60s.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 22:06

uber_stoat: Jan 21, 2001; Pillbug

The brave and bold libertarian Creators stride forth, solving through genius and sheer force of will the problems that Big Government solved half a century in the past using slide rules.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 22:14

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.; Buglord

Elon Musk is a rich tech bro who thinks that, because he read a bunch of books about rockets, he can shoot people to Mars. Same goes with building cars.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 23:06

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

Improbable Lobster posted:

According to someone in YOSPOS every time NASA interacts with SpaceX/Elon Musk it's becuae they hosed up something that was already solved in the 60s.

Was that me, because I've said pretty similar things in the tech bubel thread.

Improbable Lobster posted:

Elon Musk is a rich tech bro who thinks that, because he read a bunch of books about rockets, he can shoot people to Mars. Same goes with building cars.

Well he thinks that he can get legislators to give a big slice of NASA's budget to him by fellating their privatization hard-ons enough and so far it's working since like 60% of all their money is coming from NASA and all they've really done so far is launch some resupply missions.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 23:11

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.; Buglord

ate all the Oreos posted:

Was that me, because I've said pretty similar things in the tech bubel thread.

Well he thinks that he can get legislators to give a big slice of NASA's budget to him by fellating their privatization hard-ons enough and so far it's working since like 60% of all their money is coming from NASA and all they've really done so far is launch some resupply missions.

Yes, you did. Thanks btw, I had assumed that was the case but it was nice to have a little confirmation.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 23:16

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

Improbable Lobster posted:

Elon Musk is a rich tech bro who thinks that, because he read a bunch of books about rockets, he can shoot people to Mars. Same goes with building cars.

And also has a fuckload of money, employs thousands of capable, smart people, a PR team, and various senators and assemblyman ~~in his pocket~~ receiving generous donations every campaign cycle.

Still, as easy as it is to knock the 'Elon Musk is Jesus' thing that the internet loves to do, building a rocket that can return a first stage will truly revolutionize the world of space travel. What I don't really get is why there's this undercurrent of every time a rocket explodes on a launch pad, victory has been achieved for...some nebulous sense of economic justice?

# ? Oct 7, 2016 00:32

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.; Buglord

A White Guy posted:

And also has a fuckload of money, employs thousands of capable, smart people, a PR team, and various senators and assemblyman ~~in his pocket~~ receiving generous donations every campaign cycle.

Still, as easy as it is to knock the 'Elon Musk is Jesus' thing that the internet loves to do, building a rocket that can return a first stage will truly revolutionize the world of space travel. What I don't really get is why there's this undercurrent of every time a rocket explodes on a launch pad, victory has been achieved for...some nebulous sense of economic justice?

The current plan for his magic rocket is for it to have more engines than the Soviet rocket that kept failing because it had too many engines and to immediately launch it back into space after touchdown with no maintenance or repairs.

# ? Oct 7, 2016 01:25

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

A White Guy posted:

What I don't really get is why there's this undercurrent of every time a rocket explodes on a launch pad, victory has been achieved for...some nebulous sense of economic justice?

Well the most recent time the explosion also ate Zuckerberg's dream of exploiting the market of sub-saharan Africa via satellite so that's pretty rad.

Also there's a lot of schadenfreude involved since in the past Musk has given interviews where he's like "it turns out rockets are very easy and everyone but me was just too silly to do them right!!"

# ? Oct 7, 2016 02:01

I AM GRANDO: Aug 20, 2006

His Mars foundation is a total sham. It will never accomplish anything other than publicity.

# ? Oct 7, 2016 11:29

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

ate all the Oreos posted:

Well the most recent time the explosion also ate Zuckerberg's dream of exploiting the market of sub-saharan Africa via satellite so that's pretty rad.

Also there's a lot of schadenfreude involved since in the past Musk has given interviews where he's like "it turns out rockets are very easy and everyone but me was just too silly to do them right!!"

Not to burst your bubble, but there is such a thing as rocket insurance . Though, in true insurance tradition, they may get away with not paying for that rocket launch because it wasn't actually in flight when in it blew up :v: