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asdf32 posted:Said by someone who doesn't understand what it might be like to not have thousands of companies fawning over your dollars. Honestly it's not always a good thing but it's power and it's real and people like the Waltons spend time thinking about the wishes of people poorer than you (and their competitors) and it might be a bit easier to ignore if, say, the Soviet Union didn't have a notably terrible consumer sector. In what constructive sense is consumerism a form of power? So the Waltons care about what poor people want to buy... what does it matter?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:50
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hello, people of this tent city under a highway overpass in oregon what is your opinion on economic growth
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Oct 6, 2016 04:50
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cams posted:can you provide ANYTHING, any single thing, to support the idea that the rallying cry of peoples around the world is "ECONOMIC GROWTH!"
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Oct 6, 2016 04:50
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cams posted:hello, people of this tent city under a highway overpass in oregon it's very, very revealing the first thing that comes to your mind is the pacific northwest
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Oct 6, 2016 04:51
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Typo posted:the entire country of china is a good example of this
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Oct 6, 2016 04:51
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Typo posted:it's very, very revealing the first thing that comes to your mind is the pacific northwest
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Oct 6, 2016 04:52
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dude I'm gonna go to sleep 4 now but seriously though, you seem to have pretty left-wing views which isn't a bad thing. learn some mandarin or Hindi, go do some charity work in rural China or India and talk to the peasants there, I think you'd be pretty surprised at what you hear once you step outside the first world. No matter if your mind changes or not it will do a lot more to help poor people than raging on the internet.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:52
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lol have nice dreams about people working to feed their children with economic growth you dumb motherfucker
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Oct 6, 2016 04:53
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What people want is a decent standard of living. What they've been told is that economic growth will provide it.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:55
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Typo posted:dude I'm gonna go to sleep 4 now socialists want to cap economic growth the PEOPLE OF THE WORLD want economic growth therefore socialism runs contrary to democracy people all around the world just hoping for "economic growth" as an abstract concept, casting their vote against imaginary figures railing against "economic growth"
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Oct 6, 2016 04:56
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The Kingfish posted:What people want is a decent standard of living. What they've been told is that economic growth will provide it.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:56
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cams posted:lol have nice dreams about people working to feed their children with economic growth you dumb motherfucker sure, most of the world is already living that dream though  The Kingfish posted:What people want is a decent standard of living. What they've been told is that economic growth will provide it. Correct, a fact that most of the world recognizes and is one of the main reason for the failure of historical socialist states
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Oct 6, 2016 04:58
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The Kingfish posted:In what constructive sense is consumerism a form of power? So the Waltons care about what poor people want to buy... what does it matter? Getting people to care about what you want and take action as a result is power. This post indicates you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. A very real alternative is that no one in power gives a gently caress because they're busy vacationing at their dacha.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:58
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Typo posted:sure, most of the world is already living that dream though
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Oct 6, 2016 05:00
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The Kingfish posted:What people want is a decent standard of living. What they've been told is that economic growth will provide it. Well how does 13k/year sound to you? That's worldwide GDP ppp average.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:02
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asdf32 posted:Getting people to care about what you want and take action as a result is power. This post indicates you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. A very real alternative is that no one in power gives a gently caress because they're busy vacationing at their dacha. Even the most brutal totalitarian regime needs to worry about what it's subjects want and need. Keeping the lower classes subdued is the minimum standard for maintaining social control.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:03
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like, i get it, this is the internet, place of fun and goodtimes, and thinking can be difficult. but come on, at least present a series of ideas that lead from one to the next. "socialists is bad cause they go against democracy cause everybody loves economic growth look how awful china is doing"
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Oct 6, 2016 05:03
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cams posted:making money in our modern society has become divorced from providing a societal good. the average consumer has become more concerned with making money than providing anything to society. in order to alleviate this, basic human needs should be provided for, as capitalists have monopolized not just the means of production, but means of survival. It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We should still provide for basic human needs because it's the right thing to do and we have the means and the system will probably self-destruct if we don't.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:04
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JeffersonClay posted:It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:05
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my favorite bit of classical liberalism is when john locke wrote about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of economic growth in spite of sustainability."
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Oct 6, 2016 05:08
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asdf32 posted:Well how does 13k/year sound to you? That's worldwide GDP ppp average. The whole world's wealth if divided up evenly would give every single person more than $40k
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Oct 6, 2016 05:08
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also just lol at the premise of any argument being "well people have been convinced that this imaginary idea is necessary for their survival so anyone who tries to imply otherwise should not be elected" i like this thread gnite typo see you tomorrow
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Oct 6, 2016 05:09
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cams posted:we can't though cause people loving LOVE economic growth. The quest for economic growth is why communist(?) China is burning all the coal they can dig. Collective action problems are hard.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:10
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asdf32 posted:Which if you pay attention, is exactly what liberalism is with power distributed between the state, voters, consumers, and private institutions. it's an incredible coincidence that distribution overwhelmingly favors the capitalist class!!! also very odd to see someone posting china poverty reduction charts as part of an argument AGAINST socialism
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Oct 6, 2016 05:14
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JeffersonClay posted:The quest for economic growth is why communist(?) China is burning all the coal they can dig. Collective action problems are hard. it's cool that sustainability is becoming a concept with merit, even if it is like 50 years too late oh well suck it generations that will exist right as i am about to die, THIS IS ON YOU
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Oct 6, 2016 05:14
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The Kingfish posted:The whole world's wealth if divided up evenly would give every single person more than $40k If you meant per year you're wrong if you mean a one time shot then ok, that's 3 years of what I said.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:16
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...if you had everyone's money in one big pile, "how much can we give everyone" would be an irrelevant question but why would anyone have hypothetical discussions about political philosophy rather than engage with our reality
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Oct 6, 2016 05:22
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JeffersonClay posted:It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. Self interest isn't human nature. It's a learned behaviour from the subscribed ideology of our economic system
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Oct 6, 2016 05:37
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Deimus posted:Self interest isn't human nature. It's a learned behaviour from the subscribed ideology of our economic system don't worry, selfish idiots. i will let you latch on to capitalism until you die, progress will be slow and incremental.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:40
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'Economic Growth' (at least since Breton Woods) in the way that western liberal capitalism views it is precisely sustainable because of exploitation of 3rd world resources, slave labor and propping fascist coups that are western friendly, in exchange for finance capital. The very same finance capital that capitalism needs to actually function.
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Oct 6, 2016 06:34
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Deimus posted:Self interest isn't human nature. It's a learned behaviour from the subscribed ideology of our economic system Seems pretty conveniently nondisprovable.
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Oct 6, 2016 06:34
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JeffersonClay posted:Seems pretty conveniently nondisprovable. Yeah, living in an economic system that promotes anti-social bargainings, commodified labor and threat of poverty really brings out our 'human nature' What about science, compassion, mutual aid, enjoyment of autonomous production, art, language? Hmmm, nah self interest surely is human nature
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Oct 6, 2016 06:44
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Deimus posted:'Economic Growth' (at least since Breton Woods) in the way that western liberal capitalism views it is precisely sustainable because of exploitation of 3rd world resources, slave labor and propping fascist coups that are western friendly, in exchange for finance capital. The very same finance capital that capitalism needs to actually function.
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Oct 6, 2016 06:51
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Seems to me all people exist on some continuum of altruism and self-interest, and socialization and education can maybe shift the bell curve around a bit. Eliminating self-interest entirely sounds like an extraordinary claim requiring substantial evidence.
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Oct 6, 2016 06:51
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actually, he explains leftistly, economic growth is bad. the noble peasants of rural africa and asia actually like being able to see each others ribcages from across the street
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Oct 6, 2016 08:59
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cams walks home from another polisci lecture at his mid-tier state university, aware that like half of the developing world's ruling political parties have the word 'development' somewhere in their names but unable to fully piece out how this reflects the common aspirations of the people
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Oct 6, 2016 09:02
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Constant Hamprince posted:cams walks home from another polisci lecture at his mid-tier state university, aware that like half of the developing world's ruling political parties have the word 'development' somewhere in their names but unable to fully piece out how this reflects the common aspirations of the people the first half of that is true, i'm a dumbass, but the concern trolly defense of that absurd premise is lame. you could say "politicians who try and pass progressive legislation have a much harder time getting elected or holding office because eventually they will run into opposition which is often well financed" in which case i say "yeah no poo poo" and we move on. the average human being on the planet earth is not so invested in the concept of economic growth that they are intolerant of outside ideas.
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Oct 6, 2016 09:20
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cams posted:can you provide ANYTHING, any single thing, to support the idea that the rallying cry of peoples around the world is "ECONOMIC GROWTH!" Typo scuttles about desperately and then vanishes for a while when backed into a rhetorical corner, just fyi, so this line of questioning might not be leading anywhere worthwhile.
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Oct 6, 2016 10:32
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The economy has to grow to meet the needs of a growing population at the very least, and those needs go beyond basic physical survival into a consideration of how to empower people through improved material conditions. Note here that economic growth is being conceived of as a means to and end, not an unlimited end in itself. We know that the pursuit of economic growth can lead to the potential for meeting everyone's needs, but it does so as a side effect, as that Adam Smith quote illustrates. The problem is that pursuing economic growth as an end in itself with meeting everyone's needs as an option that is not strictly necessary to its goals is that a lot of awful poo poo (such as the actual immiseration of many, many people to increase the profits of a few) goes along with it unless checked. The fact that we have to check economic growth as an end in itself is what people itt are pointing to as very telling about the limits of the capitalist system. Then they're getting in response "lol but poor people don't want to be poor anymore." Hey yo, no poo poo. Not really what's at issue.
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Oct 6, 2016 10:46
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GunnerJ posted:Then they're getting in response "lol but poor people don't want to be poor anymore." Hey yo, no poo poo. Not really what's at issue. I guess they want every small detail of an argument explained to them in the most patronizing way possible. Deimus fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 11:46
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