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quote:I don't think anyone is going to pick a fight with me over this statement. This thread will prove otherwise. Your post is good, and is probably the least attacking and sensible post so far on the subject. I'm sure someone will have something to say, though.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:06
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I agree with most of that except the last bit there cuz idk there was never any ground rules about what was okay to be posted in here. barring poo poo against the forum rules. besides, making people think anything at all with art is fun in and of itself, even if it's a weird reaction.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:07
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I will admit to only having the smallest knowledge of gender studies but the consensus that only men participate in the objectification of women seems weird. I'm not saying guys aren't a problem, but my bi and lesbian friends are way more open to telling me they're ideal body types then my guy friends, maybe it's just the people I hang out with. Anecdotal I know, but I've only been asked to draw problematic sexy females by women and I don't really have a response for that. Whatever, i'm rambling. the most I can do is just be aware of what I'm drawing.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:10
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everyone is capable of objectification on some level. just like it's important to practice good hygiene, atleast if you wanna run with my team.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:11
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A lot of the time when people have a problem with something you do, they're trying to hold you accountable for wayyy more than you're responsible for.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:19
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Colon Semicolon posted:I agree with most of that except the last bit there cuz idk there was never any ground rules about what was okay to be posted in here. barring poo poo against the forum rules. The last bit was less about thread rules and more about common sense--posting something in a place that has previously taken issue to that exact same thing and expecting a different response shows bad judgement and a failure to understand that there's a time and a place for everything, and whether or not this is it. So, I'm not really being a rules stickler as much as I am cringing through secondhand embarrassment for him in this instance. shitpostmodern fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 19:53
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Elsa posted:A lot of the time when people have a problem with something you do, they're trying to hold you accountable for wayyy more than you're responsible for. I think this is the only place I've ever experienced that and i question if it's even serious or not tbh I mean yeah I had a pair of people who got real mad at me for being problematic towards mentally ill and it got me really upset but they both came back later and told me they were sorry cuz they realized how nuts the whole thing was. we're now really good friends! E: Curvature maps take so long to render holy poo poo. it's taking like 2 hours I want this poo poo done GOD. Diabetes Forecast fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 20:02
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Oct 6, 2016 21:26
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Oct 6, 2016 21:31
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shitpostmodern posted:if you just said 'I draw topless rail thin anime chicks and it is absolutely fap material', quote:but instead you're trying to convince people who absolutely have a point to concede that you're not drawing stuff specifically so that you or other people can jerk to it.  There's plenty of anatomical errors there. I'm not really sure what Wamuu is standing on, if he's low enough to be in the frame like this. Maybe it's a lower platform. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt but it could've been poorly planned composition. And with legs like those, how tall would Kars have to be? Also why is his head so small? I mean jaysus. quote:and I'm not pretending it's classy and professional work. I'm also not invested in forcing other people to agree that it is classy professional work. quote:See? Not too hard, and I don't think anyone is going to pick a fight with me over this statement. Now you try it! Elsa posted:A lot of the time when people have a problem with something you do, they're trying to hold you accountable for wayyy more than you're responsible for. Colon Semicolon posted:I think this is the only place I've ever experienced that
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Oct 6, 2016 22:24
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Holy loving christ can we just drop it
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Oct 6, 2016 22:30
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I came back to say Crap made a cute dog
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Oct 6, 2016 22:56
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for a dude who keeps bemoaning the lack of content in this thread he sure does like posting misogynist garbage manifestos
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Oct 6, 2016 22:58
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Scribblehatch posted:There's an issue when you aren't insisting the art is meant to be anything, but you get people who want you to tag it something. This is coming up over and over again, and I don't know why. You are correct, it isn't real. I'm not talking about ethics, I'm talking about the baseline for common sense--if you see than an audience, whatever the context, is not receiving something you're presenting them with well, you basically have two options--you either figure out what kind of content isn't going to piss them off and post that, or you go hunting for a new audience who is going to receive your content better. Instead of doing either, you decided that the best course of action was to try and convince the people being loudly critical of it that they are wrong for being critical of it, and attempting to redefine the word objectification while completely ignoring its widely accepted base definition in this particular context. I personally give zero shits that you draw anime tiddies, I'm just baffled by your inability to read basic context clues about how people are going to continue to react to them when you continue to post them while insisting that you're beyond labels and tags because you're an artist. Also it's nuts that you think you can dictate how people react to your work--it's cool if they wanna talk about your line economy or anatomy or colour balance and application, but the content is a no-go? I'm pretty polite, and if I was at all interested in critiquing your work, you'd get a well thought out breakdown on whatever area you're looking to improve. I'm chill like that. But you can't divorce technique from the context of content, and you can't dictate how I or anyone else feels about your work based on content. While how I feel about it currently is fairly apathetic, it has clearly rubbed some people in this thread the wrong way. At this point, though, I'm not even sure it's the content that's pissing people off as much as it is your endless, tiring pretentious arguing about their very valid criticisms of your work's content. Scribblehatch posted:I'm actually curious if they'd be fine with you 'objectifying women for money' if this conversation never happened, and you opened with this factoid cold. The way you've buttoned this post just now, pretty much insures that they won't give you poo poo over it. Just like how Widowmaker and Tracer are somehow an exception to every rule about 'Barbie McNo'Organ" anatomy they've pontificated. I'm going to assume you only skimmed what I just wrote, because I do recall saying that I objectify fictional, drawn women AND men for money, and I do not mean that in the sense that men are present in drawings I do as faceless stand ins for a male viewer to imagine themselves in their place. I actually draw and frame men in much the same way that I frame women. Would people in this thread object to it if they saw it? Maybe, I have no idea. I can tell you that I do make an effort to draw different body types and ethnicities, and that generally my work is tasteful and fun and non-exploitative--I don't draw anything that implies a lack of consent, I don't draw children, animals or any extreme fetishes. You will never see me draw anything in where whatever characters present look like they're doing anything but enjoying whatever scene they're in, and I would feel weird if any character I drew didn't have room for their organs or was twisted into an impossible pose just for an audience to look at. I used the word objectify in the sense that I do optimize how I frame my work and which angles I use to make them pleasing to my own eyes in terms of composition. The difference is that I come by it honestly, and I know exactly where and who should be looking at it, and if it's not clear already, that place is probably not this thread. I'm also not pretending that it's anything other than what it is, or attempting to tell people who obviously know more about the damage the constant objectification of women in the media can do to real live women that they don't actually know what they're talking about. 
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Oct 6, 2016 23:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgKPNzJWNHk This thread
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Oct 6, 2016 23:12
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That video is pretty close, but it leaves out the part where everyone talks about it anyway.
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Oct 6, 2016 23:14
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 shitpostmodern is kawaii dracula I think this is close enough.
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Oct 6, 2016 23:15
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Hey at least it's digital art
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Oct 6, 2016 23:20
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I was too lazy with that post, here god bless kawaii dracula
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Oct 6, 2016 23:56
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Scribblehatch posted:And there hasn't been any sexist art in this thread. You sure about that? I drew another witch. 
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Oct 7, 2016 00:18
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shitpostmodern posted:You are correct, it isn't real. I'm not talking about ethics, I'm talking about the baseline for common sense--if you see than an audience, whatever the context, is not receiving something you're presenting them with well, you basically have two options--you either figure out what kind of content isn't going to piss them off and post that, or you go hunting for a new audience who is going to receive your content better. Instead of doing either, you decided that the best course of action was to try and convince the people being loudly critical of it that they are wrong for being critical of it, and attempting to redefine the word objectification while completely ignoring its widely accepted base definition in this particular context. I personally give zero shits that you draw anime tiddies, I'm just baffled by your inability to read basic context clues about how people are going to continue to react to them when you continue to post them while insisting that you're beyond labels and tags because you're an artist. this is a real good post thank you
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Oct 7, 2016 00:26
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Colon Semicolon posted:I was too lazy with that post, here I will treasure it always! I'll toss up some art in here once I have some digital stuff that isn't behind an NDS or paywall rolling. Normally that wouldn't be an issue but all of my free art time is going toward inktober and belongs in the traditional thread over this one. Troposphere posted:this is a real good post thank you I'm happy that it was well received, considering I read it over after I posted it and thought 'jesus, that's an essay, no one is going to read that.' gmc9987 posted:You sure about that? What program did you use fort this--are those Frenden or Webster brushes, and if so, which ones? I've been looking for a good messy inker that wasn't too anti-aliased and this one looks great. 
shitpostmodern fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Oct 7, 2016 |
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Oct 7, 2016 00:36
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I enjoyed your post also. Also good art :; I have been a doing the classes on drawabox.com, and I'm getting rather bored with it because I feel like I have more of a natural ability to understand the concept behind the exercises. Should I keep doing these exercises or just start drawing what I want to draw digitally? My main focus is cartooning, and Paul Robertson style pixel art. I feel like cartooning and pixel art are pointless practicing traditionally. Yeah I can practice circles for a month, or I can just have Photoshop do perfect circles and ellipses for me. I just don't know how much to judge my general ability against traditional, atelier art styles. Are these the most important thing ever when wanting to do only cartoons and pixel art? Honestly I just want to be able to draw dogs like Crap does, they're adorable. Really I'm just confused and angry because my art loving sucks and I really hate wasting time.
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Oct 7, 2016 00:50
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InevitableCheese posted:I enjoyed your post also. It's sort of a toss up--on one hand, I completely understand feeling like you're trying to learn things that are things you already kind of grasp to the point where they seem like a time waster, but constructing cartoons out of perfect photoshop ellipses is gonna make for some stiff rear end drawings. Even if you look at super exaggerated cartoon characters, especially animated ones, you'll notice that nothing is ever a perfect circle, and if it is, the animation makes it look like the in-cartoon universe is populated entirely by robots in mascot/human suits that glide around on ice skates. On top of that, even if you're looking at non-humanoid cartoons, generally you can pick up visually on whether or not the artist has a grasp of anatomy because the same principals that apply to a cartoon human will also apply to a cartoon dog. Consistency is key, but you want to make sure you don't sacrifice personality for ironclad consistency at the same time--it's a weird balance to make. So while I wouldn't suggest quitting your classes, I would suggest drawing whatever the gently caress you want alongside those classes so that you can apply what you're learning as you go, and also so you don't get bored of art in the meantime--I went to school for classical animation and know people who dropped out of that course and then refused to pick up a pencil for years afterwards because the act of being forced to adhere to the first actual formal art training they had ever received in their lives killed their interest in doing art for FUN for quite a long time after they'd quit. Never lose that sense of enjoyment, and if you feel like this class is dragging down your enthusiasm, supplement it with baby steps toward the kind of art you want to be doing well.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:13
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Leaving a possible avalanche of a post aside for a bit (let's just say for now that I don't agree; surprise), anyone hoping to improve their art in a general sense might like this channel. www.youtube.com/channel/UCvM8sIthAK1KOQ4nq5mYCTw He talks about very fringe aspects of art block, and ways you can get stuck on a piece and the need to wrestle with it, in a sort of minutiae that is Seinfeldian. It's really good. And other times the advice is purely practical towards the digital aspect. He doesn't keep many secrets, and I respect that.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:15
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InevitableCheese posted:I enjoyed your post also. I've had similar thoughts lately. Depending on where you attend, the art education you receive is either bent toward traditional art or digital tools, sometimes skewed completely in one direction. The program I'm attending is very light on the traditional animation techniques like drawing on sheets of paper on a lightboard, but in my case I think I will get juuuust the right mix of some traditional art and a lot of digital tool exposure. That's just in my personal case, however. I have a bit of traditional and general art experience already, and I feel lucky to have fallen into this program that seems to shore up my biggest weaknesses. But if I had to do it again and pick a school, I would look at the curriculum rather than assuming all programs are the same. So basically it's a matter of deciding what you need. Decide based on what you like too maybe, but also keep in mind a lot of things are painful but you need to do them for the benefit of your art.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:34
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InevitableCheese posted:I enjoyed your post also. There's really no easy way to draw Good Pictures™ without drawing a whole poo poo ton of lovely ones, sorry. Practice is absolutely necessary, for cartoonists or pixel artists as well - even if you plan on using Photoshop's shape tools to do a lot of the hard work for you. Just because you're going through lessons, though, doesn't mean you can't also take time to draw what you want. If classes are getting boring, take a break and draw something that interests you for a while. Keeping drawing fun for yourself is a very important skill to learn if you want to do anything involving drawing. Also, posting an example of your work will get you more targeted and useful feedback - it could be that you really, truly suck at drawing circles and SHOULD spend several months just practicing ellipses. shitpostmodern posted:What program did you use fort this--are those Frenden or Webster brushes, and if so, which ones? I've been looking for a good messy inker that wasn't too anti-aliased and this one looks great. Honestly, I just googled, "Ink photoshop brushes" one day and lucked into this amazing brush in the first free brush pack I downloaded. I stuck my brushes up on dropbox if you want to download them - the one I used for this one is called "Mateus_Nanquim_Viscoso3" and it's towards the bottom of the brush list. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7533911/Mine.abr gmc9987 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Oct 7, 2016 |
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Oct 7, 2016 01:41
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InevitableCheese your pixel stuff looks good, the only crit I have is perhaps applying a scanline filter to each pixel to add that extra texture.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:41
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InevitableCheese posted:Yeah I can practice circles for a month, or I can just have Photoshop do perfect circles and ellipses for me This is terrible. I urge you not to think like this unless you want to find yourself completely trapped in a corner. Being able to freehand circles isn't a super critically important skill on its own, but not being able to draw a decent circle or ellipse or straight line or whatever is generally symptomatic of major problems and a lack of practice with drawing in general. Using digital shortcuts to save time if you know you could get the same results on your own by doing it the hard way is fine, but using shortcuts to avoid learning is self-sabotage. Regarding "atelier" vs cartoons, my opinion has always been that stylized or abstracted approaches to visual art ideally are distillations of traditional realistic approaches, not a way to sidestep them. You will find powerful and direct applications for anatomy, color theory, light, perspective and more when drawing cartoons or doing pixel art. Having those fundamental skills will only make you better, and ignoring them is a great way to make small gains before you ultimately bounce off a brick wall. I have no idea what drawabox's curriculum really looks like, but from a cursory glance it seems you're being introduced to the basics of perspective and being asked to do drills in order to work on your mental and physical drawing muscles. If you struggle with drawing, I don't think that's a waste of time. Like dracula also said, don't think that working on a curriculum like this means that you're not allowed to also do things for fun. It's a very good idea to take the things you're learning in study and try to find ways to incorporate them into the work you do for yourself.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:49
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that's not a critique, and neither was the time you told me to use a different brush
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Oct 7, 2016 01:49
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I have realized that my whole problem is my brush settings. Moving on I typed a long message in the Awful app to only have it crash. I started in art because of Paul Robertson and my interest in game dev. I'm a competent programmer who has always wanted to be able to draw and create stuff but was always better at technical ability. Blah blah blah I just feel like my digital is better than traditional and I end up hating traditional. Here's some of the traditional stuff I've been doing:     Here's some of the stuff I've done digitally:    
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Oct 7, 2016 02:06
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If you are only ever doing boring perspective and line control drills in your sketchbook while you only ever get to "play" with digital, it's not hard to put together why you're beginning to resent the pencil and paper.
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Oct 7, 2016 02:16
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pencil and paper are still my only source of amusement at times. When that's all you need to create something fun, it's an amazing thing. porn or not
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Oct 7, 2016 02:21
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no need to say resent. we all get bored of things
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Oct 7, 2016 02:36
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I can't really draw on paper anymore, and frankly I was poo poo at it to begin with. I'm a really rigid person and paper always made that problem worse cuz I knew i could only screw the paper up so many times before I ended up destroying it. Digital helped me loosen up and drawing on a tablet became very natural almost immediately. That traditional painting I'm working on started as a digital sketch that I then used chalk to transfer to the woodboard, then built in flat tones on top of that. yeah it's anecdotal but I don't want anyone feeling bad about not being able to do traditional media well.
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Oct 7, 2016 02:41
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I suppose I should post some art now that I commented on something. Here's a thing I've been chipping away at 
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Oct 7, 2016 02:54
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InevitableCheese posted:I have realized that my whole problem is my brush settings. The Draw a Box curriculum is derived from the technique taught by Peter Han at the CG Master Academy. (http://2d.cgmasteracademy.com/peter-han-bio.html) Most of the exercises are the same. There are some good skills to be learned there but I don't think it gives you that much for character design or people/animal drawing. The type of exaggerated vanishing points of the box exercises I think are confusing in relation to the practical demands of most illustration/comics/animation techniques. Your digital stuff is OK but it is limited by the underlying draftsmanship. Making effective "flat" design should start with conceiving of the form in 3D, and abstracting it after the fact. Otherwise you can't turn the character or pose it without the features drifting all over the place or looking like stickers. I think you will get more out of doing the John K $100,000 animation course. That is more relevant to what you like doing, and the skills you learn from drawing character turnarounds will transfer to LOTS of other applications. Box forms are useful, to be sure, but unless you're drawing spaceships flying into a hangar, you almost never see the extreme perspective that most tutorials start you on.
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Oct 7, 2016 02:55
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Scoss posted:I suppose I should post some art now that I commented on something. I really do like the colour scheme you're going there, it feels like a very late afternoon in the season of autumn. The base seems good so far. I'm curious to see the finished art piece. Keep going.
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Oct 7, 2016 03:04
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Scoss posted:This is terrible. I urge you not to think like this unless you want to find yourself completely trapped in a corner. Being able to freehand circles isn't a super critically important skill on its own, but not being able to draw a decent circle or ellipse or straight line or whatever is generally symptomatic of major problems and a lack of practice with drawing in general. Using digital shortcuts to save time if you know you could get the same results on your own by doing it the hard way is fine, but using shortcuts to avoid learning is self-sabotage. I suck at drawing but I can still draw a good freehand circle even if I need to do some warmups first to get my wrist moving. The real other thing not quite captured in the chat here is that being able to draw a perfect circle is not the point of being able to freehand a circle. You need to be able to handle base symmetry when drawing but if you are drawing mirror image objects, where repeatable perfect circles are important to you, you are probably drawing boring poo poo or focusing too much on something that should not be the main focal point of the image. It's more important to be able to draw two close enough to identical circles at different perspectives that won't be compared as identical by anyone ever anyway.
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Oct 7, 2016 03:06
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I guess this would be a good opportunity to ask what kind of exercises you guys would recommend for a very rough artist? I've been getting random poses from this site and doing rough sketches of them. I've tried to do at least an hour of that every day, though lately I've been slacking off and drawing other stuff I enjoy because frankly its insanely boring. I figured it was a good way to build a better understanding of anatomy though, which is something I'm struggling with.
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Oct 7, 2016 03:38
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