|
Deimus posted:I want to understand the forums optimism for Dems in the near future. But it's like, things have shifted so far to the right that something as moderate-left as the New Deal is now considered something like a marxist fever dream. You are talking about the democrats circa the 1990s, today's democrats are much much more willing to sacrifice electoral gains in favor of left-wing ideology The democrats got wiped out in 2010 because of Obamacare's unpopularity with the blue-dog districts flipping to GOP, that didn't stop them from going for it
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2016 14:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 08:33 |
|
|
Deimus posted:I want to understand the forums optimism for Dems in the near future. But it's like, things have shifted so far to the right that something as moderate-left as the New Deal is now considered something like a marxist fever dream. The New Deal was actually a pretty big shift to the left coming after republican laissez-faireism and herbert hoover. It was forced on FDR by a large leftist coalition of socialist parties, the AFL-CIO and the communist party.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
if anyone has questions for gloria la riva i'll be sitting down with her tomorrow
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
1. how does she see us politics changing post-2016 and how does the psl plan to build the party in that environment 2. which of her colleagues are cops 3. after the election, will she have a white house dog or a white house cat
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2016 23:45
|
|
|
-how do you possibly revolution things when the state has this much control
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 00:05
|
|
|
Peel posted:2. which of her colleagues are cops i'll field this one: all of them. everyone is a cop except me
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 00:16
|
|
|
PSL is probably 80% deep cover CIA guys.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 00:21
|
|
|
hardly unprecedented:quote:There were twelve programs under COINTELPRO covering different sets of organizations, including the Puerto Rican Independence Movement, the New Left, the American Indian Movement, the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), and almost needless to say, the Communist Party, which had been an FBI target for decades. ... Following a lawsuit by the SWP, it was revealed that an organization with 2,500 members had been infiltrated by 1,600 informers—thus actually strengthening the group for a time, one could reasonably suppose.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 00:37
|
|
|
How many people in this thread are CIA agents
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 03:05
|
|
|
hamprince is definitely cia
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 03:59
|
|
|
Homework Explainer posted:if anyone has questions for gloria la riva i'll be sitting down with her tomorrow really?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 03:59
|
|
|
Ask her about the phenomenon of Obama '08 voters like me who radicalized when he didn't close Guantanamo (etc.) and how the PSL is reaching out to other disaffected progressives. Ask her about whether and what structures the Left would need to protect itself from a Trump presidency and how those structures would also be useful in a Clinton presidency. Good luck to you both!
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 04:01
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:hamprince is definitely cia yeah but he's here in his off time, he really is a mindless but insistent anti communist true believer irl. maybe he's mormon lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 04:02
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:yeah but he's here in his off time, he really is a mindless but insistent anti communist true believer irl. maybe he's mormon lol no man he's totally just throwing back beers and slinging insults with his socialists internet pals
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 04:07
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:really? really. we got word from the campaign she was in town and i called her directly to make a sit-down happen asap
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 04:23
|
|
|
Can i vote for these folks in CA?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 07:28
|
|
|
Homework Explainer posted:if anyone has questions for gloria la riva i'll be sitting down with her tomorrow Ahhhm, well major business articles are discussing an unsettling high chance 'severe fall' of U.S. stocks. Something about that I guess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 09:47
|
|
|
Vox Nihili posted:Can i vote for these folks in CA? you are lucky, they are on the ballot in california.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 14:27
|
|
|
Homework Explainer posted:really. we got word from the campaign she was in town and i called her directly to make a sit-down happen asap
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
honestly, I'd be curious what her thoughts are on organizations like DSA. ie. does she view them as an ally?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
Please ask her to elaborate on her vision for self-determination by oppressed nations including "African Americans, Native, Puerto Rican and other Latino national minorities, the Hawaiian nation, Asian, Pacific Islander, Arab and other oppressed peoples who have experienced oppression as a whole people under capitalism"
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Ask her about the phenomenon of Obama '08 voters like me who radicalized when he didn't close Guantanamo (etc.) and how the PSL is reaching out to other disaffected progressives. i was only able to get this one fielded as irl friends took priority. short answer is that the fallout from bernard is an organizing opportunity and no matter the winner the psl is joining other groups for a counter-inauguration action to get the ball rolling right away. politics doesn't end after the election, that sort of thing. about trump, she was careful to distinguish between the fascist parties who have mobilized and been emboldened and the "softer" trump supporters who are projecting their very real concerns on other members of the working class. the trick will be to reach out to them and let them know they're on the same side as immigrants, blacks, etc. she pointed to jesse jackson's primary victory in michigan, a state that had voted for george wallace in 1972. her thinking is the "waves" of political projection are different, but privation stays the same, hence the need for socialism and what have you
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 22:22
|
|
|
i will also add, to my leftie pals itf considering a third party vote: do not give jill stein the time of day. la riva is the real deal and if you can vote for her you 100 percent should. i'm gonna, and because of how impressive she was i'm gonna feel good casting a ballot for the first time since 2008
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 23:30
|
|
|
Real communists vote the party line. Real communists vote for Hillary Clinton. It's you so-called "leftists" without any respect for party discipline or democratic centralism that are keeping the Left down in this country.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2016 23:39
|
|
|
Hear me, comrades: left-deviationism is a cancer which must be excised so that the revolution may succeed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 00:13
|
|
|
oh man so I'm re-reading the blood of spain and poo poo was so hosed up back then Coincidentally the Communist party of Spain also threw in their lot with the moderate liberals and leftists and fought their own vicious civil war with the anarchists and other far-leftists who wasn't on board with that
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 00:53
|
|
|
The far left is correct and it always has been.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 01:57
|
|
|
It's pretty interesting: the anarcho-syndicalists held power in catalonia even though the area was nominally under Republican government control. But the Anarchists dominated regional trade unions and revolutionary committees and thus had real control over the region. The Communists moved on the Anarchists partially because the (increasingly Stalinist) Communist party decided that it's better to defend the democratic republic and hold off on having the revolution and collectivizing private property (at least until they win) whereas the Anarchists wanted to have it right now. After suppressing the Anarchists the Communist were in the ironic position where they were helping dissolving farming communes established by Anarchists and sending in soldiers to help farmers recover their land which they lost to said communes. The SCW was truly some bizzare times
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 02:23
|
|
|
Typo posted:It's pretty interesting: the anarcho-syndicalists held power in catalonia even though the area was nominally under Republican government control. But the Anarchists dominated regional trade unions and revolutionary committees and thus had real control over the region. The Communists moved on the Anarchists partially because the (increasingly Stalinist) Communist party decided that it's better to defend the democratic republic and hold off on having the revolution and collectivizing private property (at least until they win) whereas the Anarchists wanted to have it right now. Republican Spain could have been a brilliant thing, but the west's refusal to support it and fascist nations supporting Franco with all they had meant things couldn't have ended up any other way. This is basically reason 101 why vanguard parties and the socialist state were/are necessary and anarchists don't get that. Though I do sympathize with left coms, and I personally think unions/worker coops should have been a check to the party and been in place of a bureaucratic oligarchy, i still think the vanguard and state is necessary if global capitalism exists, anarchists wouldn't agree..
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 03:18
|
|
|
One of the biggest problems for the anarchists during the war is that they couldn't get any kind of war industry going, because liberal bankers refused to lend to liberated factories. Without the credit they needed to guarantee industrial inputs, they were pretty hosed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 04:09
|
|
|
Homework Explainer posted:i was only able to get this one fielded as irl friends took priority. Cool! Thank you, friend.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 04:14
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:One of the biggest problems for the anarchists during the war is that they couldn't get any kind of war industry going, because liberal bankers refused to lend to liberated factories. Without the credit they needed to guarantee industrial inputs, they were pretty hosed. also as soon as one anarchist had a suggestion the other two would denounce him as a tyrant
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2016 15:18
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:also as soon as one anarchist had a suggestion the other two would denounce him as a tyrant The Anarchist CNT militias were actually well disciplined and obeyed orders from the leadership, else they would not have made a crucial part of the Republican army
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 04:01
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:One of the biggest problems for the anarchists during the war is that they couldn't get any kind of war industry going, because liberal bankers refused to lend to liberated factories. Without the credit they needed to guarantee industrial inputs, they were pretty hosed. They didn't seize the banks That was a bad move
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 07:37
|
|
|
.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 10:54
|
|
|
Oh, I'm sorry, did I stumble into the Marxist-Leninist thread instead of the socialism and liberation thread? Everyone who supports vanguard parties thinks they're going to be part of the vanguard. All you're doing is setting up another elite class to exploit the lower classes. "The vanguard party destroyed the anarchist communes that were actually a good model for actual working communism, and instituted state capitalism" isn't exactly a convincing argument for another vanguard. Authoritarians lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 13:57
|
|
|
The PSL isn't an anarchist party, I don't think, but anarchism in general just doesn't make sense. Marx has an account of social classes and their relations, to study history and frame the solution, anarchism has some rather utopian moralisms that everyone is expected to just, follow, for no reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 14:34
|
|
|
rudatron posted:The PSL isn't an anarchist party, I don't think, but anarchism in general just doesn't make sense. Marx has an account of social classes and their relations, to study history and frame the solution, anarchism has some rather utopian moralisms that everyone is expected to just, follow, for no reason. Not really. Traditionally speaking Anarchism doesn't actually mean a total lack of social organization. Though I'm sure that a majority of modern anarchists don't have any clue about this, (in the same way that the majority of everyone has no clue about anything).
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 15:14
|
|
|
Arri posted:Oh, I'm sorry, did I stumble into the Marxist-Leninist thread instead of the socialism and liberation thread?  hi Arri posted:Everyone who supports vanguard parties thinks they're going to be part of the vanguard i've seen this line before, sort of a pithy "fox news"-style aphorism that betrays confusion about the term. a vanguard is not a group of "leaders" so much as "ideologists." it's literally just people engaged in active pedagogy and organizing to help improve class consciousness among the mass of workers. the point is inclusiveness, not exclusiveness case in point: if you want in on a revolutionary vanguard, get in on it. organizing is hard work and it can be a huge hassle to find motivated individuals keen on it, so if you think that describes you, the best way to show it is to step up without having to be prompted as I am presently prompting you
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 08:33 |
|
|
Aeolius posted:
and of course to keep ideological purity and purge the party of deviants like anarchists and/or trots
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2016 23:25
|
|