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Phi230 posted:There is an understanding that JJ tried to return to the true path (OT) in all forms. That the prequel trilogy was irrelevant in TFAs creation. Serf posted:"There is an understanding" where? Answer the question, Tezzor.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:29
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My god. Would people please stop whining about the loving prequels already!? We ge tit, you don't like them. Now get over it! They're just loving movies! If people like them and want to talk about them, what does that do to you? Nothing! If you want to talk about TFA or the OT, NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU EXCEPT YOUR OWN BULLHEADEDNESS!!! Goddamn, this is tezzor-level stupid.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:29
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Serf posted:Answer the question, Tezzor. Uhhh the commentary where JJ says so
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Oct 18, 2016 17:30
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Phi230 posted:Uhhh the commentary where JJ says so Since you've apparently taken exhaustive notes on all the commentary tracks for all Star Wars movies, could you give me a timestamp on this one?
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Oct 18, 2016 17:31
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Basebf555 posted:I'm confused by this, because I remembered you also said this: You seam to misunderstand what I was saying. A prequel in general is bad. There is ONE exception in the Godfather and it does not RETROACTIVELY CHANGE godfather 1. It adds backstory that is independent to the story of godfather 1. Whereas the prequels made 20 years after the OT are going into the OT and corrupting and changing the original work.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:33
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Phi230 posted:Yes this is what I said. Supplementary plot materials will not make this particular film more interesting, even in the future. That is the folly of the Expanded Universe. Rey's missing parents, and her identity, are not interesting in this film. Ren's backstory is also not interesting in this film.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:33
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Phi230 posted:Strawman plus clutching pearls i guess what?
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Oct 18, 2016 17:36
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Kly posted:what? he thinks you're being ironic
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Oct 18, 2016 17:37
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Serf posted:Since you've apparently taken exhaustive notes on all the commentary tracks for all Star Wars movies, could you give me a timestamp on this one? http://heroicuniverse.com/j-j-abrams-gives-the-star-wars-prequels-the-cold-shoulder/ http://www.slashfilm.com/jj-abrams-interview-star-wars-the-force-awakens/ https://www.google.com/amp/dorkside...android-verizon Theres a reason why theyre focusing on practical effects and OT nostalgia
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Oct 18, 2016 17:38
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Phi230 posted:You seam to misunderstand what I was saying. Interesting to see how you misunderstand what you are saying. It's almost as if you have no other position other than "I don't like this" and will then work backwards to justify that position. It would seem that your very thought process is all about constructing prequels, Tezzor.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:39
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Phi230 posted:Whereas the prequels made 20 years after the OT are going into the OT and corrupting and changing the original work. this is some biblical poo poo right here "what do you mean this jesus dude is telling me the old testament was wrong? what the gently caress is this"
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Oct 18, 2016 17:39
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Phi230 posted:Whereas the prequels made 20 years after the OT are going into the OT and corrupting and changing the original work. While I don't like the prequels, knowing their story really enhances Luke's character especially (and his decision to cast aside his lightsaber). R2 is also a lot more interesting when presented as a long-time Republic/Rebel spec ops agent.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:39
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Phi230 posted:http://heroicuniverse.com/j-j-abrams-gives-the-star-wars-prequels-the-cold-shoulder/ So what you have is essentially jack and poo poo.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:41
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Serf posted:Interesting to see how you misunderstand what you are saying. It's almost as if you have no other position other than "I don't like this" and will then work backwards to justify that position. Youre deliberately being thick just to be a dick
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Oct 18, 2016 17:41
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No prequels have ever been good? Metal Gear Solid 3 is widely considered to have the best story in the series, and it changes a lot about the way we think about the characters and motivations from the previous games. It's also Star Wars as gently caress.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:42
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Like half of the preceding Star Wars films, The Force Awakens is incomplete by design. Unlike half of its predecessors, no space was set aside for it to fit into. It presents some interesting and provocative, yet ambiguous, contrasts with the older films. It is impossible to discuss them without reference to the prequels. In Maz we see a new Yoda, one who is flattered as wise and believes in a Manichean struggle between good and evil. Both of them run grand temples and put on airs of humility. When Yoda's temple fell, he made an effort to reclaim it and slay his enemy, then went into exile, wiser. How does Maz react? We don't know, we haven't seen that part yet. Hux, Ren, and Snoke form a trio of villainy inviting comparison to Tarkin, Vader, and Palpatine, but they are all mirror images. The normie is passionate, young, easily provoked; the black knight serves willingly out of an ethical commitment to darkness; the master is supportive and forgiving; they seek the power of a famous hermit Jedi. They indoctrinate children like a certain other Order of note; they bitterly resist a new government like some sort of Rebellion; they don't have a lot of ships; their organization is youthful and they use Triumph of the Will imagery their pep talks; they are not too proud to evacuate when they're beaten. They're more authentic successors to the Rebellion than the Resistance, who are cosplayers fighting a proxy war for The Man in an attempt to relive their glory days. What will become of them now that The Man is decapitated and the culprits of this genocide are on the run? Dunno yet. The whole galaxy could see it this time when millions of voices cried out in terror and were silenced in an instant. Seeming nobodies turn out to be Force prodigies and hear the voices of long-dead strangers calling out to them. The same audio motif of "awakening" accompanies loyal cultists suddenly snapping out of their programming. That's probably what the title means. I think we do know that. The hero of the new cycle is full of hatred, but her mentor is someone who understands the need to overcome it. His previous pupil, the villain, did not exorcise his rage as the Jedi of old once taught, but he did at least attempt to banish his self, and it was not in anger that he committed patricide. What happened in his training? How do these pieces hang together? Dunno yet.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:43
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Serf posted:So what you have is essentially jack and poo poo. I have 2 interviews with JJ abrams saying he is ignoring the prequels and focusing on the OT for: Style Themes Set design Effects Plot Characters Costume design Ih my god its almost as if they threw the prequels in the trash and started over, using the OT as sole inspiration
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Oct 18, 2016 17:44
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Waffles Inc. posted:he thinks you're being ironic oh. is any opinion phi doesnt agree with ironic? wasnt he also saying people were ironically defending and liking the prequels? is that scene considered bad? even in the trailer before TFA came out i thought the 2 second part of that scene they showed with the xwings coming in was cool Kly fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 17:44
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Filthy Casual posted:While I don't like the prequels, knowing their story really enhances Luke's character especially (and his decision to cast aside his lightsaber). R2 is also a lot more interesting when presented as a long-time Republic/Rebel spec ops agent. Wanna get into this more? I'm interested and have forgotten a poo poo ton of the prequels.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:45
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Phi230 posted:Youre deliberately being thick just to be a dick And you have nothing of substance to say, and you're too hardheaded to re-examine your own position, so you obstinately plant your feet and scream like a child because other people are talking about things you don't like. All those probations and bans should have given you the hint, Tezzor. Phi230 posted:I have 2 interviews with JJ abrams saying he is ignoring the prequels and focusing on the OT for: Show me the timestamp on the commentary track like you said you had. You were whining about the goalposts being moved yesterday, and you're still running with them.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:46
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I showed you JJs word
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Oct 18, 2016 17:49
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The discussion of TFA was at it's most interesting when we were discussing feudal revanchism vs. triumph of the millennials. It's interesting that the film leans on the Apocalypse Now imagery so heavily during the First Order assault but it's a bit of a puzzling reference that muddies the waters on the characterization of the first order. While it tried to maintain that feel of barely controlled chaos from the Ride of the Valkyries it kind of falls apart when the Stormtroopers hit the ground. Despite all the unique designs in the cantina scene (even though I feel it was the weakest set of alien designs in a Star Wars cantina scene there was still a decent number of imaginative/effective concepts) as far as I can remember they all effectively disappear the second the sneak attack begins. Which is really bad for a scene that's supposed to be emphasizing the chaos and collateral damage as the First Order and Resistance start going to town on each other in a neutral location. Instead we get some air battle background while the protagonists climb out of a pile of rubble and perfunctorily ice some Stormtroopers and safely shepherd the plot along. Which kind of sums up my problem with TFA - intriguing ideas/premises with very little follow up.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:49
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Phi230 posted:I showed you JJs word Commentary track or gtfo Also, using the OT as inspiration for a movie that takes place chronologically closer to the OT than the PT just... makes sense? Like it was obvious from the start they were going to go with the OT just because of the progression of time from an in-universe perspective. That isn't "forsaking" anything, that's just common sense. And even then they still dropped a fun reference to the PT despite all your wailing to the contrary.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:53
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Serf posted:Commentary track or gtfo Where was that reference. All evidence I showed you points to an almost complete abandonment of the prequels except in the form of childrens cartoons for babies.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:54
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Kylo Ren's entire character is a mirror of PT Anakin. Off the top of my head (it's been a while since I've seen the movie), we also have Maz's mention of the Sith, Ren's reference to clone troopers, the visual reference to Coruscant of Hosnian Prime, and Ewan freakin' McGregor playing Obi-Wan in voice over. There's a lot more OT references because of the time frame and, well, it's JJ Abrams, but the idea that the PT is being ignored is wishful thinking.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:57
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Phi230 posted:Where was that reference. "Maybe Supreme Leader Snoke should consider using a clone army." It's like you haven't even watched TFA (it's pretty good).
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Oct 18, 2016 17:57
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Wasn't there one point in a Q&A or whatever where JJ interpreted a question as being a slam on the PT and said he absolutely refused to go along with that?
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Oct 18, 2016 18:00
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Phi230 posted:Where was that reference. Because of course proper Star Wars is meant for mature adults.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:00
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Serf posted:"Maybe Supreme Leader Snoke should consider using a clone army." Clones were mentioned in the OT too. Weak as gently caress
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Oct 18, 2016 18:03
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Phi230 posted:Clones were mentioned in the OT too. Weak as gently caress So... it's a reference to both the OT and the PT? Even better! It's like the movies are all connected! I'm very proud of you Tezzor. One day you'll get it.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:05
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The Force Awakens is the sequel to Revenge of the Sith. Understanding Kylo Ren's character requires understanding his grandfather's. What does he mean when he says "I will finish what you started?" If you only make reference to the originals, you'd think that means exterminating the Jedi, but the prequels make it clear he means bringing order and justice to the galaxy at the end of a sword - overthrowing the government and establishing an empire of his own, where people are compelled to reach an agreement about what's best for everyone. He serves Snoke and attempts to destroy his humanity in order to attain the power to do this. Vader failed in his dying moments, he believes, because of that humanity, because of love that turned him back to the light and away from the inhuman strength of will that any successful ubermensch would require.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:06
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The prequels are the best movies to ever come out. The OT is trash. Jar Jar Binks is the best character in 2000-2010.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:08
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It's an unpopular and controversial opinion, but I think that the original Star Wars trilogy is good.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:11
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Literally the first line of dialogue in TFA is a prequel reference. Perhaps the sole bit of interest in the film is in how it rearranges the overt dad-nostalgic references in a post-prequel context. So we understand that Rey is being manipulated into using the dark side, Ren is the closest thing to an actual good-guy and so-on.
SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 18:11
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Supplementary plot materials will not make this particular film more interesting, even in the future. That is the folly of the Expanded Universe. Rey's missing parents, and her identity, are not interesting in this film. Ren's backstory is also not interesting in this film. In a sense I disagree. The integrated teaser trailer actually ends up being one of the individually stronger parts of the film because it's basically one of the few times it cuts loose and uses imaginative and evocative visuals that rely heavily on editing to create ideas without breaking down and inserting an exposition dump. That image of Kylo Ren standing alongside his posse in the rain ends up being a lot more intriguing and provokes imagination and thought about his character in a way that his fairly boilerplate TFA storyline doesn't really approach. Now this is kind of a backhanded compliment i'll admit (Imagine if I suggested Wonder Woman sitting down and watching some viral videos was a high-point of BvS.) Ultimately I would say it's strength comes from contrasting with the general storytelling of TFA that does a lot of set-up and than undercuts by making the climaxes feel perfunctory and restrained/predictable. I wouldn't say it's exactly in the films favor but it's a refreshing point for the film it is in. In a strange way the "hype" really is the best thing about the movie.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:12
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Phi230 posted:The prequels are the best movies to ever come out. The OT is trash. Jar Jar Binks is the best character in 2000-2010. Dude I usually agree with you but you lost me here.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:14
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Bongo Bill posted:The Force Awakens is the sequel to Revenge of the Sith. Understanding Kylo Ren's character requires understanding his grandfather's. What does he mean when he says "I will finish what you started?" If you only make reference to the originals, you'd think that means exterminating the Jedi, but the prequels make it clear he means bringing order and justice to the galaxy at the end of a sword - overthrowing the government and establishing an empire of his own, where people are compelled to reach an agreement about what's best for everyone. I feel like Kylo Ren hopped on the wrong bus if he just wants the space government overthrown, based on the First Order's stated goals of "blow up the Republic". I don't think Kylo Ren really knows what Grampy Annie actually wanted to do, he's just putting his own goals on top of his idea of him.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:15
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Ok I have a question Why does Kylo think he has the competancy/skill to train Rey? He offers seemingly for real (at the worst time) but if Rey fell to dark side wouldnt she just kill him p. quick?
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Oct 18, 2016 18:16
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Isn't that the inherent question of any sith and master?
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Oct 18, 2016 18:19
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RBA Starblade posted:I feel like Kylo Ren hopped on the wrong bus if he just wants the space government overthrown, based on the First Order's stated goals of "blow up the Republic". I don't think Kylo Ren really knows what Grampy Annie actually wanted to do, he's just putting his own goals on top of his idea of him. It may not be common knowledge that Vader redeemed himself. Kylo may have his worldview shattered by this knowledge
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Oct 18, 2016 18:19
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