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At the risk of giving the toy companies too much credit, they likely had to decide how many of each toy to produce before seeing the movie or even reading the script. They may have assumed that Rey was more of a secondary character than the primary protagonist. That aside: Maxwell Lord posted:"Girl toys don't sell"- the toy industry since forever
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Oct 18, 2016 21:14
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Phi230 posted:Maybe theres a confusion on selling out. The point is he sacrificed art for money As I was saying before, Lucas has been a lot more involved in his franchise than just about any major franchise creator I can think of. If he wanted to just make a bunch of money and didn't care about the art, there's hundreds of ways he could have done that easier than taking ten years to write and direct three movies. Even in areas like the EU, traditionally the place you'd think they'd just shovel out stuff to make money, he's been unusually involved. He's a big fan of comics in general, and had a lot of input on several of the comic series (and put two comic characters into cameos in the prequels, one of whom was cut), as well as input on events in the books set after ROTJ. Ironically, the "everyone hates the prequels" attitude is the best argument against "he only wanted to make money" - if that were the goal, wouldn't he aim for the big crowd pleasers and OT rehashes? Or if you argue that he thought he could do it during TPM, why not make the latter two prequels with lots of Han Solo-esque characters and wisecracking Anakin and whatever else the fanbase clamors for? Like, I would think the idea that the PT are the movies Lucas wanted to make is the least disputable part of the whole thing.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:15
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Lucas even said, on record, he told the story that's in the OT first because he knew it would be easier to sell, had lots of action by default and such. We were warned there would be politics.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:19
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Bongo Bill posted:A prequel is an achronological sequel. Right, this is what I was getting at. To whatever extent you feel you can ignore later films, you can ignore prequel films. If you really like the OT as a unit and feel the information of the prequels disrupts your reading of the OT, you need not consider them. The idea that a prequel is per se bad is what I want to hear about -- not as a defense of the PT, I kinda don't care about that, I think they're good and Tezzor doesn't, and I am ok with moving past that. To mangle Clausewitz, I think a prequel is a continuation of the narrative by other means. What is so important about adherence to a chronological regime? If it's not that, why can't you (or, more charitably, why should we never) look at a film as it stands, if other films with shared elements are made? Hey, Tezzor, tell me about remakes of foreign films. In some ways those are the same kind of thing -- a reinterpretation of an existing (and "uncorrupted") intellectual property for a later time and a different culture.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:22
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Just to be clear, it's not like there's never been a sequel that introduces information that does in fact change how you see the events of the first movie. Highlander 2, Halloween: The Curse of Michael Meyers, etc.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:27
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Maxwell Lord posted:Just to be clear, it's not like there's never been a sequel that introduces information that does in fact change how you see the events of the first movie. Highlander 2, Halloween: The Curse of Michael Meyers, etc. The Empire Strikes Back
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Oct 18, 2016 21:31
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Basebf555 posted:Everything is getting twisted because you have no clear line of thought. You're all over the place and you contradict yourself every other post. This thread makes me frustrated so I cant argue effectively. It challenges my worldview of prequel fans are not star wars fans Im just going to say what I feel. And that is: The Prequels are bad because they depart from star wars OT in such a demonstrable way in every facet, that they then lose everything that makes Star Wars good. Especially in my opinion, where themes of mysticism and traditional character arcs, and good vs evil and poo poo appeal to me. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 21:35
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homullus posted:The Empire Strikes Back Nah, clearly Lucas studied Dutch in college which explains Darth "Vader".
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Oct 18, 2016 21:36
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Phi230 posted:This thread makes me frustrated so I cant argue effectively. It challenges my worldview of prequel fans are not star wars fans What makes you think that a person who likes a Star Wars or seven must be a fan? Star Wars fandom has not, historically, been a good lens for understanding film.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:45
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Phi230 posted:Im just going to say what I feel. And that is: This is what I prefer for posts about why somebody doesn't like the prequels. The mysticism of the Jedi specifically really did shift to something more . . . medieval, in a lot of ways, in the PT. I can understand not liking the move to dogma, bureaucracy, and concern for secular matters. I think it's a really good explanation for how powerful guardians of peace and justice could fall -- the wound was partly self-inflicted -- but I can see not liking it.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:50
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The prequels were made with much less "big Hollywood type" influence and control than the OT, which had to be shopped around between United Artists, Universal, and Disney before Alan Ladd and 20th Century Fox gave Lucas a shot, not on the basis of the treatment even. To contrast, Lucas financed the prequels on his own. Now, it is possible to argue that this was a bad thing, but not at the same time you're insisting the prequels were from selling out.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:59
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Phi230 posted:The Prequels are bad because they depart from star wars OT in such a demonstrable way in every facet, that they then lose everything that makes Star Wars good. Especially in my opinion, where themes of mysticism and traditional character arcs, and good vs evil and poo poo appeal to me. The original trilogy primarily uses the concept of the Force as a means through which people can either a) fight each other or b) encourage others to fight each other - it's a tool through which conflict is settled. The prequel trilogy examines how people's lives are affected by the widespread use, abuse, and worship of the Force - it's an idea through which conflict arises. The prequel trilogy deals with mystical themes. The original trilogy, despite appearances, does not - or at least, not in a way that is not directly informed by plot elements that we only later came to be aware of because of the prequels.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:07
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The OT style of Force worship is kind of a white dude's perspective of Buddhism. It's not even that consistent since at the end you have the two Jedi Masters telling Luke to go kill a dude to save the universe.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:10
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computer parts posted:The OT style of Force worship is kind of a white dude's perspective of Buddhism. 2 dudes, they just forgot to mention the Emperor because they are morons.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:30
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computer parts posted:The OT style of Force worship is kind of a white dude's perspective of Buddhism. well the white-people-into-buddhism thing was big in the 70s, but in star wars they pulled it off well. The force is mysterious and wonderous and poo poo. Its like magic in Harry Potter, but early HP. HP is very close to the Original Trilogy when you think about it
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Oct 18, 2016 22:36
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Phi230 posted:Maybe theres a confusion on selling out. The point is he sacrificed art for money Alt right isn't a real thing. It's a catch phrase assigned to republicans who reshape old timey racism/classism by dressing it up in internet speak, buzzwords, and memes. Which most prequel haters do, lamenting about the good ole days when Like, some people are personally offended that Jar Jar even exists. If you can't see the parallels of that with what's going on in the world... May I remind you that Lucas is still a crusader for the underclass, what with the whole "using his own property to develop low income housing" moves he's been making post-SW. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 22:37
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ruddiger posted:Alt right isn't a real thing. It's a catch phrase assigned to republicans reshaping old timey racism/classism and dressing it up in internet speak, buzzwords, and memes. Which most prequel haters do, lamenting about the good ole days when I do enjoy Lucas' housing initiatives. To BE FAIR: 1. Jar Jar is a horrible, horrible sambo-esque stereotype. 2. Watto is a horrible, horrible Jewish/Arab stereotype 3. The Nematoads whatever, horrible, horrible Asian stereotype. They even speak like loving Yellow Scare asians.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:41
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Phi230 posted:I do enjoy Lucas' housing initiatives. It's pretty racist to say that Thai accents are interchangeable with Japanese ones, Mandarin ones, or the horrid mishmash of both used for good ol'fashioned racialism.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:47
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Brainiac Five posted:It's pretty racist to say that Thai accents are interchangeable with Japanese ones, Mandarin ones, or the horrid mishmash of both used for good ol'fashioned racialism. You talking about the Raid series dudes? They spoke Thai. They didn't do a yellow scare pantomime.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:52
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Phi230 posted:I do enjoy Lucas' housing initiatives. Disliking people because you think of them as a stereotype is all but the definition of prejudice.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:53
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Phi230 posted:You talking about the Raid series dudes? They spoke Thai. They didn't do a yellow scare pantomime. In the Star Wars movie Episode I: The Phantom Menace, the readings for the character "Nute Gunray"/ Newt (Gingrich) (Ronald) Reagan were first performed by a Thai man reading them using Thai phonology, and then the voice actor did his performance using the pronunciations according to Thai phonology. You, having been trained by underlying systemic racism and also listening to some idiots who believe continuity editing is obsolete, concluded that it was all a bunch of "me chinese, me play joke" poo poo because you don't pay attention to things.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:57
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MrJacobs posted:2 dudes, they just forgot to mention the Emperor because they are morons. They both mention the Emperor - Yoda warns Luke of the Emperor's skill at seducing people to the dark side, and Obi-Wan only sees Luke's conflict with the Emperor in the frame of a physical fight with Darth Vader. The prequels give us the impetus for these points of view. Yoda does not give Luke advice about how to best the Emperor physically or spiritually because he himself could not overcome the Emperor - he's manipulated by him into believing the Clone Wars were a good idea, and then straight up loses to him in a fight (and even goes on to say, in Rebels mind you, that the Jedi Order itself was tainted by the dark side). Obi-Wan only perceives the conflict as only a physical one because, as we're shown in the prequels, he's a soldier. He does not take it upon himself to examine the intricacies or morality of conflict - he's specifically shown in TPM as chafing under Qui-Gon's relative impertinence in the Jedi Order. His failure to Anakin is ultimately a culmination of his failure to understand Qui-Gon's teachings, and several of his lines in ROTJ indicate that even he believes as much ("Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.") The line immediately after in the script doesn't appear in the film, presumably because it basically repeats the same thing but more explicitly ("If I was wrong in what I did, it certainly wouldn't have been for the first time. You see, what happened to your father was my fault.")
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Oct 18, 2016 22:58
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This kid wins Halloween in his city. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4dM0k3p1hY
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Oct 18, 2016 23:01
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Phi230 posted:To BE FAIR: The best post on this subject: Bongo Bill posted:Ahmed Best intentionally drew on minstrelsy performances in that role. As an artist he has professional and personal interest in that tradition, and talked about how that stock character specifically can be played subversively. I regret that I'm unable to find the interview.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:04
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You're looking at superficialities. What typically motivates characters who embody those stereotypes? What kind of inner lives do they lead? Jar Jar, for instance, is a very similar character to Luke, but with an accent that emphasizes how provincial he appears to people from the bright center of the universe. A couple of snooty aliens on a mission, one much more far-sighted than the other, crash land on his planet and he gets caught up in their cause. His outsider's perspective helps his friends realize that there's an opportunity to dispense with ancient, futile prejudices, and he is courageous and instrumental in a desperate battle to save multiple peoples. Jar Jar is a hero, and a far cry from that craven, lazy stock character. Nevertheless, Ahmed Best did intentionally and explicitly draw on minstrelsy shows in his performance. Of particular professional interest to him was the idea of playing the character in a subversive way. Edit: beaten by myself Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 23:09
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Schwarzwald posted:Disliking people because you think of them as a stereotype is all but the definition of prejudice. Brainiac Five posted:In the Star Wars movie Episode I: The Phantom Menace, the readings for the character "Nute Gunray"/ Newt (Gingrich) (Ronald) Reagan were first performed by a Thai man reading them using Thai phonology, and then the voice actor did his performance using the pronunciations according to Thai phonology. You, having been trained by underlying systemic racism and also listening to some idiots who believe continuity editing is obsolete, concluded that it was all a bunch of "me chinese, me play joke" poo poo because you don't pay attention to things. Are you guys really going to the "pointing out racism is the real racism" level bullshit really when is a disgusting Asian stereotype just a horrible example of racism and not something deeper
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Oct 18, 2016 23:12
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Phi230 posted:Are you guys really going to the "pointing out racism is the real racism" level bullshit No, I'm saying that your inability to distinguish a Thai accent from a guy in yellowface shouting "I tie your shoe, you tie my shoe" really fast before Ronald Reagan shoots him in a wartime propaganda movie, and in fact your insistence on reducing things to "Asian", is itself racist, apart from whether it was racist to have the characters speak with Thai accents or not.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:20
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Phi230 posted:Are you guys really going to the "pointing out racism is the real racism" level bullshit That is an excellent question, and the key detail is "stereotype." Jar Jar and Nute Gunray are both characters that superficially resemble stereotypes, but prove themselves to be otherwise through their actions. That is why they are not racist characters.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:22
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Geez, y'all are gonna make me agree with loving Tezzor here. The prequels are hella racist. Watto, the Gungans and the Nemoidians are all a loving embarrassment for which there is no defense.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:23
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Serf posted:Geez, y'all are gonna make me agree with loving Tezzor here. The prequels are hella racist. Watto, the Gungans and the Nemoidians are all a loving embarrassment for which there is no defense. Huh, actually, I don't think anyone's made the claim that the Gungans as a whole are bad, just the whole minstrel thing with Jar-Jar. Mind going into more detail?
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Oct 18, 2016 23:26
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Serf posted:Geez, y'all are gonna make me agree with loving Tezzor here. The prequels are hella racist. Watto, the Gungans and the Nemoidians are all a loving embarrassment for which there is no defense. Watto is inexcusable. I'm not seeing a match between IRL racist stereotypes and the Nemoidians and Gungans though. Maybe I haven't met enough racists.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:31
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asian stereotypes definitely include giant red eyes. Edit also the neimoidians don't speak with a chinese(because that's pretty much what people mean when they say "asian") Accent
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Oct 18, 2016 23:33
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Serf posted:Geez, y'all are gonna make me agree with loving Tezzor here. The prequels are hella racist. Watto, the Gungans and the Nemoidians are all a loving embarrassment for which there is no defense. How are the aliens racist? I know racism is revealed in the humans characters reactions to them, but how does this make the story itself racist?
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Oct 18, 2016 23:33
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My favorite scene of TFA is when Rey's looting the old Star Destroyer, because it's ripped straight out of Valerian's Empire of a Thousand Planets, when they infiltrate the old broken spaceship and discover that the mysterious immortal sorcerers runnibg the Empire are humans from the earlydays of interstellar travel.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:41
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Ah, enough time has passed that now the prequels aren't even racist. Boy, to be a fanboy.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:43
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Zoran posted:The best post on this subject: I don't understand how people on this very page don't find this compelling or just ignored it. I find it to be a thoughtful and articulate defense of why those characters aren't racist. Given some of Lucas' personal pet projects and politics I absolutely believe they were meant to embarrass the audience for their assumptions
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Oct 18, 2016 23:48
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Ah yes, children, the most impressionable and target audience of the prequels, are also the reigning experts on picking up subtle subversion. Lucas, you cad.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:57
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rear end Catchcum posted:Ah yes, children, the most impressionable and target audience of the prequels, are also the reigning experts on picking up subtle subversion. Lucas, you cad. I don't quite get what you mean.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:59
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rear end Catchcum posted:Ah, enough time has passed that now the prequels aren't even racist. Boy, to be a fanboy. Is it not enough to whine about how the Blues Brothers are morally abhorrent? Do you also have to make these godawful posts, poo poo out by a tapeworm in the gut of the lowliest of the damned in hell?
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Oct 18, 2016 23:59
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Schwarzwald posted:I don't quite get what you mean. Given some of Lucas' personal pet projects and politics I absolutely believe they were meant to embarrass the audience for their assumptions 10/18/16, 2:48 PM Yes, I'm sure Lucas intended to embarrass the audience of children for their dumb, dumb assumptions. He really got those children, who, again, were the target audience for those movies, good.
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Oct 19, 2016 00:02
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