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rear end Catchcum posted:Yeah for how great Lucas was with all the subversive commentary on race he couldn't make a single main character who was a human not white in 6 movies. Lando's the lead at the beginning of Return, and Mace was a major character whose opinions and actions had weight throughout the prequels. Don't let your hate cloud your memory. As for as other strong characters played by people of color, there's Padme's captain of the guard, Bail Organa, Jango, and his son Boba, (and Capt. Cody too, technically). That's 7 characters of color, with 5 holding high government/military ranks. 7 characters of color, who act like *gasps* REGULAR loving HUMANS, as opposed to the aliens, who are racist ching chong sambo stereotypes because the Internet says so. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Oct 19, 2016 |
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Oct 19, 2016 08:29
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Racism is a specific ideology. In order to show that JarJar is a 'racist caricature', you must first accomplish the basic task of showing that the ideology of the film is racist: that it promotes the idea that racial determinism, or that it at least downplays/obfuscates socioeconomic factors.
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Oct 19, 2016 08:33
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Atrocious Joe posted:I think I prefer how TFA has people of color actually being protagonists of non-CGI characters instead of whatever is apparently going on with race in the Phantom Menace. Look, I think it's cool that TFA has a black character as one of the main protagonists (John Boyega is one of the few really good things about the movie), but this whole idea that you can pass judgment on a movie based on how many people of color are main protagonists is reductive and dumb. Especially since the races of the three mains of the prequels were pretty much predetermined by the OT many years ago. If for whatever reason you're discounting the role of Jar Jar, which is one of the most important and demanding roles in the movie, and who Lucas personally handpicked a completely unknown black stage performer from the Bronx to play, then as far as major characters go that pretty much just leaves the roles of Qui-Gon, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Jango Fett, and General Grievous.
And it's also important to point out that John Boyega was cast in TFA because he was the best person for the role, not because he was black. If a white actor tested better than him than he would have gotten the role. The only thing to praise J.J. Abrams for is for not being actively racist in his casting decisions. But guess what? I don't see even the slightest shred of evidence Lucas was either. Unless you want to train all your missile sights on the OT. You can, if that's what you really want to do. And you can do that. As a matter of fact Lucas originally wanted Ben Kenobi and Princess Leia to be played by Japanese actors, and Han Solo to be played by a black actor, but ultimately opted not to--very likely due to concerns about how all that would be received, but who can be sure of how exactly everything went down (I mean, he also wanted to have Luke and Leia played by little people at one point, and that obviously didn't happen). But to his credit he did partially redeem the original Han Solo idea by casting Billy Dee Williams as Lando in the next movie. edit: Oh yeah, I knew was forgetting someone. Lucas cast Jimmy Smits, a Hispanic actor, as Bail Organa, the adoptive father of Princess Leia and one of the founders of the Rebellion--a pretty pivotal character in the Star Wars mythos. He also cast a Filipino actor as her adoptive mother, Queen Breha Organa--a minor character with only a moment of screentime and no lines, but one that leaves a pretty strong visual impression in one of the most striking tableaus of the films. 
Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Oct 19, 2016 |
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Oct 19, 2016 08:44
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I met Billy Dee at a convention years ago and he is still debonair as all gently caress. Billy Dee loving owns.
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Oct 19, 2016 08:47
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Gonz posted:I met Billy Dee at a convention years ago and he is still debonair as all gently caress. Billy Dee loving owns. I wonder what'll happen when Billy Dee hears that George Lucas is racist.
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Oct 19, 2016 08:51
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Everybody forgets that Lando's co-pilot in ROTJ was Nien Nunb, a jovial Mexican fellow. Or was he Filipino? I don't remember.
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Oct 19, 2016 09:01
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ruddiger posted:I wonder what'll happen when Billy Dee hears that George Lucas is racist. gently caress that, I just hope no one tells his wife or biracial daughter. They'd be devastated to learn that he's just been using them this whole time so he can bust out that tired ol' "Some of my best wives and children are black" defense.
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Oct 19, 2016 09:03
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I don't know about Billy Dee, but here's what Samuel R Delany has to say about Lucas vis a vis his inclusion of Billy Dee.Samuel R Delany posted:For years I have told the story of the two pounds of hate mail I received for my first review of Star Wars, back in COSMOS in ’77. When I walked into the office and it was waiting for me on the desk at which anyone who was briefly in the office but needed an hour to work would sit. It was the most mail I’d ever received for any piece of non-fiction I’d ever written: almost two pounds, and all of it, I learned as I went through it, angry and vituperative. (A year and a half before, a piece of science fiction had received more than that and of a generally positive character. It wasn’t until the end of the eighties that received a letter from Canada for the third volume of a fantasy series, scrawled in red ball point on a leaf of paper torn from a ring binder that began: “Dear Mr. Delany. You think you’re so smart. Well, gently caress you!” It went on for three pages.) Hate mail can be highly instructive—or at least I have been luck enough to find it so. The message I began to put together as if the pages were transparent and the message was clear when you looked through them all, to physically inscribe them on top of one another. “We don’t want blacks, women, or anything else in our movie—and Star Wars is OUR film. It’s ours because we love it. We don’t want them there, even as an extra crossing in background, because, whenever we see one, we see a problem, a problem that is somehow other than ours and which the suggestion is, somehow, by being where we are, doing what we do, acting the way we act, WE cause it. And we don’t feel like we did. So stop making us feel bad when we’re in middle of having fun.” And when, two years later, the Empire Strikes Back opened and we saw handsome black Billy Dee Williams as Lando Calrissian, front and center in the plot, I gained some respect for Mr. Lucas. Or rather I gained more respect for him. If I knew what I knew from simply suggesting for one paragraph at the end of a six page review, otherwise overwhelmingly positive, that the smallest suggestion, squeezed in at the end of it all, that there might be a little diversity in the lily white field, could elicit two pounds of objection and anger, laced with four letter words and worse, then Lucas must know it too. And the fact that he had decided to take it on, and risk loosing millions and millions of dollars spoke well of him to me. By doing that, I knew he was risking many millions of dollars on a gamble that he could make these kids, by the end of the movie, have a good time. And more or less he did—though he did it once more by having no bunch for Lando, for Han, for Chewy; Lea’s bunch had all been blown up by the end of the middle of the first film. Luke, however, was learning step by step that who he thought had been his bunch was really an entirely different family after all—with much bigger fish to fry. Full article here.
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Oct 19, 2016 09:09
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George is definitely a dirty racist (although his wife is black?) but in his defense Obi, Anakin, Padme, and Yoda all kinda had to be white. Although it would have been really cool if they just weren't like Louis CK's wife in Louie.
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Oct 19, 2016 09:21
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Gonz posted:Everybody forgets that Lando's co-pilot in ROTJ was Nien Nunb, a jovial Mexican fellow. Those drat browns, all their gibberish sound the same. Just like Nieb Nunb! George nailed them but good! *ignores Jimmy Smitts*
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Oct 19, 2016 09:28
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It's incredibly wrongheaded to insert racist stereotypes in your Star Wars movies in a clumsy attempt to get people to reexamine their racism. It takes a deft hand to do that without coming across as a racist hack and Lucas failed hard. It makes the prequels difficult to watch. Also, I'm sure all the people defending the overt racism in the prequels are white fanboys. Kinda makes it hard to take their opinion seriously.
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Oct 19, 2016 11:13
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I have a theory that people would stop hating Jar-Jar if he talked like Captain Haddock. Don't really change anything else about the character, he just now talks like Captain Haddock. "When Bantha angry, he always do like this."
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Oct 19, 2016 11:44
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sponges posted:It's incredibly wrongheaded to insert racist stereotypes in your Star Wars movies in a clumsy attempt to get people to reexamine their racism. It takes a deft hand to do that without coming across as a racist hack and Lucas failed hard. It makes the prequels difficult to watch. Also, I'm sure all the people defending the overt racism in the prequels are white fanboys. Kinda makes it hard to take their opinion seriously. The thing is, you really can't make this assumption about people on the Internet. It carries with it a whole range of other unconscious biases that are just as problematic. Unless someone volunteers the information, you can't assume gender, race etc. about anyone online.
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Oct 19, 2016 12:32
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As a kid I didn't associate anything Jar Jar did with black people, but afterwards people started telling me that's how black people act so showing it in a movie is racist.
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Oct 19, 2016 13:07
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The, uh, point of a stereotype is to communicate the idea that all people of a certain type behave or think or look this particular way. Butterfly McQueen's character in Gone With The Wind is meant to reinforce notions of black inferiority. Jar-Jar is specifically presented as a distinct individual from other frog-rabbit aliens, and the other black characters in the film are also distinct from him. That is, what stereotyping is going on when a character is presented as not emblematic of anything? What message is to be communicated? There are some black people who are klutzy and speak a different dialect of English? Jesus Christ.
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Oct 19, 2016 13:17
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sponges posted:It's incredibly wrongheaded to insert racist stereotypes in your Star Wars movies in a clumsy attempt to get people to reexamine their racism. It takes a deft hand to do that without coming across as a racist hack and Lucas failed hard. It makes the prequels difficult to watch. Also, I'm sure all the people defending the overt racism in the prequels are white fanboys. Kinda makes it hard to take their opinion seriously. Exactly how many PoC would have to agree with Ahmed Best himself before you can accept that it's not just white men? One? Five? Would it have to be a Jamaican person? Brainiac Five posted:The, uh, point of a stereotype is to communicate the idea that all people of a certain type behave or think or look this particular way. Butterfly McQueen's character in Gone With The Wind is meant to reinforce notions of black inferiority. Yeah also this
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Oct 19, 2016 13:32
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It's interesting to think that a lower-middle-class guy running an auto parts store and putting money on drag races for fun is now a notorious antisemitic stereotype. Or is it because he's a New Yorker and is an alien with an elephant trunk? Like, if Watto was a college professor, or owned a deli, or was a novelist-
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Oct 19, 2016 13:40
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I like how all ge people defending racism are so flustered theyre attacking arguments that have never been made. Makes you pretty uncomfortable to conftront racism in your precious movies huh
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Oct 19, 2016 13:55
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Brainiac Five posted:It's interesting to think that a lower-middle-class guy running an auto parts store and putting money on drag races for fun is now a notorious antisemitic stereotype. Or is it because he's a New Yorker and is an alien with an elephant trunk? So youre saying that if Watto the character was not portrayed as a classic racist stereotype then he wouldnt be a racist caricature? No loving way
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Oct 19, 2016 13:58
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Phi230 posted:I like how all ge people defending racism are so flustered theyre attacking arguments that have never been made. I agree that the black actor who portrayed Jar Jar Binks and decided himself how to portray the character in order to make a specific point is too uncomfortable to confront racism Jar Jar and Ahmed Best are way more woke than a lot of y'all
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Oct 19, 2016 14:06
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Phi230 posted:So youre saying that if Watto the character was not portrayed as a classic racist stereotype then he wouldnt be a racist caricature? The classic racist stereotype of Jewish people having elephant trunks. Or is it that "Hey, I'm walking here!" is a hideous form of hate speech, just like the New York accent itself is? I guess the Borscht Belt joke he makes is just plain racist, much like the moment in the classic Catskills play where the hero holds up a cross and the vampire winks at the audience, saying, "Oy vey, have you got the wrong vampire!" Possibly you aren't aware of actual antisemitic stereotyping, like Jews all being brainy poindexters who've never worked with their hands, or all running delis, or being effete cosmopolitan artists. Being an ordinary schlemiel who puts a little too much money down on the races is, erm, not one I'm familiar with.
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Oct 19, 2016 14:24
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ruddiger posted:I wonder what'll happen when Billy Dee hears that George Lucas is racist. Sorry, Billy Dee Williams is actually a closet racist, as seen in his promotion of the stereotype of malt liquor drinking among African-Americans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHtT0x6_MDM 
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Oct 19, 2016 14:55
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sponges posted:It's incredibly wrongheaded to insert racist stereotypes in your Star Wars movies in a clumsy attempt to get people to reexamine their racism. It takes a deft hand to do that without coming across as a racist hack and Lucas failed hard. It makes the prequels difficult to watch. Also, I'm sure all the people defending the overt racism in the prequels are white fanboys. Kinda makes it hard to take their opinion seriously. I'm a dark skin Mexican whose skin color has gotten me beaten up in white neighborhoods and have been honest to god told to "go back to where I come from" while growing up, I also shared a personal anecdote in this thread about my grandmother who has spoken in broken English for the past 80 years and was met with basically "lol your grandma speaks like a minstrel." But please, keep telling me how my first hand accounts of racism are clearly wrong, and it's actually George Lucas who's problematic because he dared include aliens who speak in accents alongside minority actors who play their human roles like everyone else. Where were your cries of racism when George had the tusken raiders straight up speaking Zulu? Where are those cries about racism in the original trilogy now? By your logic, you should be just as angry at the original trilogy for assigning foreign dialects to savage space tribes and effeminate speech to the subservient droid. drat that George for making the space gays into robots! ruddiger fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 19, 2016 |
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Oct 19, 2016 15:13
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ruddiger posted:I also shared a personal anecdote in this thread about my grandmother who has spoken in broken English for the past 80 years and was met with basically "lol your grandma speaks like a minstrel."
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Oct 19, 2016 15:34
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Sorry, Billy Dee Williams is actually a closet racist, as seen in his promotion of the stereotype of malt liquor drinking among African-Americans. You can't post this and not post the In Living Color parody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlR-I57nmr4
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Oct 19, 2016 15:34
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I'll conceded that TFA is pretty trash when it comes to actually doing something with race. Admittedly Lucas and Hobson's awkward argument that Chicago should illegally give them public land to build their private museum kind of soured me on defending their personal beliefs.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:34
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Thanks for the very cool and good posts on the Star Wars movies the past 20 pages or so.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:35
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euphronius posted:Thanks for the very cool and good posts on the Star Wars movies the past 20 pages or so. Welcome to hell Maybe itll get better when Rogue One comes out
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Oct 19, 2016 15:42
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temple posted:Who replied to you with that? Tezzor, probably.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:42
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Atrocious Joe posted:I'll conceded that TFA is pretty trash when it comes to actually doing something with race. Finn's "one of the good ones." There's a reason why the movie keeps his past vague and never treats his former comrades as anything but faceless cannon fodder for him to remorselessly turn his back on.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:52
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Phi230 posted:Welcome to hell Rogue One, the movie that has Asians doing martial arts while waxing poetically about
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Oct 19, 2016 15:55
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euphronius posted:Thanks for the very cool and good posts on the Star Wars movies the past 20 pages or so. what is acceptable to post about in the star wars thread apparently it is not ok to post about - 3 of the star wars movies - race-related issues surrounding the star wars movies so that's 2 things down, what else
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Oct 19, 2016 15:56
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Waffles Inc. posted:what is acceptable to post about in the star wars thread I was being sincere.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:57
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euphronius posted:I was being sincere. oh word, sorry
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Oct 19, 2016 15:59
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ruddiger posted:Rogue One, the movie that has Asians doing martial arts while waxing poetically about Yeah its a problem And youre a fuckin idiot if you dont see it as one The only star wars movie without problematic racial stuff is TFA However if you feel that its on the same level of problem as Jar Jar the racist Sambo Caricature then you are mistaken. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Oct 19, 2016 |
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Oct 19, 2016 16:00
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Waffles Inc. posted:Exactly how many PoC would have to agree with Ahmed Best himself before you can accept that it's not just white men? One? Five? Would it have to be a Jamaican person? Best choosing that awful voice doesn't make it less racist. Any director with an ounce on common sense would have rejected that poo poo out of hand. Half the characters in TPM have these loving outdated racial stereotypes. It's like It was made in the '50s. If none of this bothers you that's fine. You're free to enjoy it but it's a problematic movie.
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Oct 19, 2016 16:08
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The made up voice that sounds like a real language is a racist caricature. ?
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Oct 19, 2016 16:09
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Having the only woman in a serious interracial relationship be a spy for the bad guys is certainly racially and sexually problematic.
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Oct 19, 2016 16:10
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I think that was just an extremely sexually dimorphic alien species.
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Oct 19, 2016 16:11
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euphronius posted:The made up voice that sounds like a real language is a racist caricature. Let me remind everyone that this was a legit defense of minstrel shows back in the day
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Oct 19, 2016 16:12
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