|
Vegetable posted:
Congratulations on the new job and increased salary! Don't forget to fill in the google doc if you want to.
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2016 16:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 03:03 |
|
|
I was handed an offer of 63k today which would make me the lowest paid member of that team. It's a bit annoying, but I don't seem to have a lot of room to negotiate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2016 23:54
|
|
|
PBS posted:I was handed an offer of 63k today which would make me the lowest paid member of that team. It's a bit annoying, but I don't seem to have a lot of room to negotiate. Why not?
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2016 00:14
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:Why not? When I talked to the manager before it'd been finalized he seemed pretty excited about the offer. It's already about a 23% increase over what I was currently making for an internal promotion. It's hard to get a good idea of what market value for the position is and then I'd also have to take my lack of experience into account. It's a good opportunity overall, which is mainly why I don't really want to push it. I just fear that if I keep taking compensation on the low end of the scale for the position I'm going to end up grossly under-compensated for the work I'm doing as I progress.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2016 00:37
|
|
|
PBS posted:When I talked to the manager before it'd been finalized he seemed pretty excited about the offer. It's already about a 23% increase over what I was currently making for an internal promotion. You lack experience and are the lowest paid member of the team, doesn't that seem kind of normal to you? Also, it is almost a universal truth in the modern job market that you have to change companies to get a really good raise. Edit: I should clarify that I don't know what others are making or their experience, so 63k could be terrible, I don't know. Since you, yourself, don't know what the value of the position or what value you bring to the table, it's hard for others here to have an opinion either way. If you have time to accept, you should make a concerted effort to figure out how to value yourself in the position, it will likely be the most rewarding work you put in. MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Oct 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2016 03:58
|
|
|
MickeyFinn posted:You lack experience and are the lowest paid member of the team, doesn't that seem kind of normal to you? Also, it is almost a universal truth in the modern job market that you have to change companies to get a really good raise. I appreciate the reply. Yes, being on the low end with little specific experience makes sense. I know someone else at a similar experience level on the team making slightly more, I was expecting the same offer as them pretty much. I don't know what other people on the team are making as a whole, it's not that hard to figure it out with time, but before I even start there I'm not going to know. I personally tend to look at things in terms of value brought to the table. There are individuals on my current team making roughly 10k+ more (than the above offer) with the same title I currently have and no on call responsibilities (plus overtime eligible). They have been at the company longer, and in IT as a whole longer, but they don't seem to bring anymore value to the table than anyone else on that team or myself. Given that, it makes less sense to me from a value brought perspective that a higher level position should pay less than a lower level position. (If their time is so valuable why are they on an entry level team?) Does that make more sense, or am I being unreasonable? I do have a little bit of time to mull it all over before answering. PBS fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Oct 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2016 04:31
|
|
|
PBS posted:I appreciate the reply. Ok, so you know what you want (to match the other person on the team you will be joining) and you know that there are people with less responsibilities (no on call) getting paid more than you and the person you want to match (I think). How do you know how much these other people are being paid? Can you use it? If your company has a policy of frowning on salary discussions between employees, you can't say why you are asking for more than the initial offer without causing these other people problems. I certainly wouldn't want to do that. Assuming that is the case, you are in a pretty weak negotiating position because your prospective boss likely knows you current salary and you already work for this company so if it goes badly it could affect your current job. It seems like your biggest concern is that you don't want to be left behind on the pay scale over your career and not this job. In order to do that you are going to have to go out and apply/interview/negotiate at other places. As for this job, your only option appears to be to throw out a number close to the match (so you don't doxx your coworker) and see if they bite. Maybe someone else here has a better idea.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2016 16:18
|
|
|
MickeyFinn posted:Ok, so you know what you want (to match the other person on the team you will be joining) and you know that there are people with less responsibilities (no on call) getting paid more than you and the person you want to match (I think). How do you know how much these other people are being paid? Can you use it? If your company has a policy of frowning on salary discussions between employees, you can't say why you are asking for more than the initial offer without causing these other people problems. I certainly wouldn't want to do that. Assuming that is the case, you are in a pretty weak negotiating position because your prospective boss likely knows you current salary and you already work for this company so if it goes badly it could affect your current job. People I know are generally willing to talk about it. The company had to send out a notice saying that people are allowed to discuss their salaries, so maybe not the best sign in that regard, I've gotten mixed signals on it honestly. My prospective boss is the one that hired me for the position I'm currently in, so they certainly know exactly what I'm making. I'd like to stay at my current company at least for a little while longer. So far it's provided me opportunities to increase my knowledge and take on things I'm not necessarily the most experienced with, so from a perspective of rapid growth I think it's good for me to stay. I spoke with the recruiter and indicated I'm interested in a salary increase, initially they were advising me against it (to be expected I guess), but when I gave them the value they seemed less opposed. Ultimately at the end of the day the recruiter advised that I should ask for the increase, and offered to talk about it with the hiring manager. I was going to go ahead and accept the standing offer before that, so I viewed the response as it being an indication that I'd be making a mistake if I don't try asking for more. Edit: So I asked for a slight increase and was denied. Oh well. PBS fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Oct 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2016 00:38
|
|
|
epenthesis posted:If you plan to lie to your future employer, consider how insulted you really ought to be to have your honesty questioned. You can say someone needs to do better without lying. Just say you have a competing offer and to accept you'd need number X. X may or may not be the competing offer amount but it's not a lie to say what you want. If you say 'my competing offer is Y' when it's actually X then that's morally a bit more difficult to accept.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2016 08:53
|
|
|
"I really like what your company has to offer, but I have a very generous offer from another firm that I have to consider. If you can increase your offer to X [or whatever your terms actually are], I can guarantee immediate acceptance. Otherwise, I'll give your offer full consideration and get back to you by your deadline with my decision." I'm 2 for 2 on getting my demand (or most of it) with a line like that. I tend to offer multiple options if they're reasonable for me, like "increase the bonus, or increase salary by X, or signing bonus of Y, or vesting period reduction of Z" sorts of stuff, depending on what works for me to make the offer feel good. The more flexibility you have in terms of what meets your compensation requirements (at least with large companies which may have weird rules about what they can and cannot change in offers), the more likely you get what you want.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2016 17:09
|
|
|
Forgive me if I'm overthinking this a bit, but I have a semantics question. If you attempt to negotiate but would be willing to accept with the starting offer, and they respond by not budging, what's the best, most professional way to accept the initial offer without looking weird or like you were just pushing your luck and will never negotiate hard? A simple "I understand, and after further consideration I accept?" I don't mean to count my chickens before they hatch, but I am on the middle of a few series of interviews that seem promising and want to cover my contingencies. One I'm willing to walk from if they low ball me but the low end of the scale on the other is still within what I'd gladly take.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
Im not a pro so I feel a little uncomfortably answering but: It's way lower stakes than a job but I felt like I was getting too many yes answers for negotiations. So I got on eBay and made low ball offers on things I might want but don't need, just to see what happens. Actually looking for a rejection. I Got a pretty firm no and counter offer on almost everything. Once someone actually accepted my low offer so idk motivated seller or I could have gone lower. So, idk as long as your respectful, it seems like no big deal to just accept their offer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 23:03
|
|
|
Bluedeanie posted:Forgive me if I'm overthinking this a bit, but I have a semantics question. They're offering you the same dollar amount again because they want you to accept that dollar amount. If you stay happy and positive (which you should be if you accept) they'll just be relieved you accepted. Say whatever comes naturally to you in a positive way and you'll be fine. Seriously, they're gonna be worried that you're gonna say no. They're not gonna be weirded out when you say yes, they're gonna be happy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 02:25
|
|
|
Bluedeanie posted:Forgive me if I'm overthinking this a bit, but I have a semantics question. The only time this really needs to concern you is getting into a mindset of playing long term, multi-round negotiation games with the same party. If you try to nudge higher and they don't budge and you accept, then you've shown that you'll buckle during negotiations without getting any additional concession. This will embolden whoever you negotiate with to just shoot you down in the future. It might also give a leading impression that you're easily trod upon. The solution to both of these problems is to do what you're already doing: secure leverage in the form of alternatives. Consequently don't eagerly burn bridges with your candidacy that you do not prefer, as you can potentially use it for leverage to push up the other offer. Just remember that to really push, you need to be willing to go with the offer that is not your preference. In short: - Get a good offer from the sub-optimal opportunity as leverage. - Ply it with your preferred employer. - Don't overplay your hand if you're not willing to take the sub-optimal offer. - If you buckle and take this offer you want, you might set up a disadvantageous negotiating position with THIS SPECIFIC EMPLOYER in the future. You can fix this by moving jobs elsewhere. - Don't overthink it, you're in a good position!
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 17:05
|
|
|
What's your current salary?quote:Thanks for the email and I do think your background and experience would be a fit for the position. Unfortunately, if we are going to be representing you to a client of ours, we are expected to know basic information about our candidates and current and expected compensation is certainly one of the main points our clients expect us to know about.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:52
|
|
|
Tots posted:What's your current salary? Thank you for your interest. If you could share the salary range the client is targeting, I can confirm whether it's possible to move forward, would that work? Added snark bonus (don't do this): A client's targeted salary range is one of the main points I expect recruiters to know. This assumes you are in a job-seekers market, if there are a bunch of qualified people otherwise lining up for the position, you have much less leverage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 14:56
|
|
|
Even if you aren't in a job seeker's market find a better recruiter.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 15:12
|
|
|
I'd drop that recruiter and let him know that I'd be telling my network that $recruiter_name and $recruiter_company are people who will only work with you if you let them undermine your negotiating position.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 17:47
|
|
|
He actually did tell me the salary range that the employer was targeting, but I also assumed he was lying.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
When I used an "independent" recruiter and he insisted on knowing my salary, I included every conceivable benefit in my current compensation then tacked on a little bit more and kept it all very vague and in round numbers. He said he wouldn't reveal it to potential employers so I didn't feel bad or unethical about exaggerating/lying.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 20:09
|
|
|
Saint Fu posted:When I used an "independent" recruiter and he insisted on knowing my salary, I included every conceivable benefit in my current compensation then tacked on a little bit more and kept it all very vague and in round numbers. He said he wouldn't reveal it to potential employers so I didn't feel bad or unethical about exaggerating/lying.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 20:21
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Yeah I did this as well. I got an $18 allotment every day for lunch, and $30 for dinner if I stayed late. So, I rounded this up to $50/day, multiplied it by 250 workdays to get $12,500, then multiplied by 2 because that's roughly what I'd need to compensate for it in pre-tax dollars if the benefit were going away. The new company did indeed compensate for most of it. Of course, the next time I looked for work, I negotiated based on my new salary even though it was for a company that once again provided meals. No regrets. How would you go about putting a dollar value on something less tangible, like the ability to work 100% remotely? I've thought about an approach like finding the average commute time in my local metro area and then multiplying that vs my consulting rate, but there are more things I find valuable about remote work than just eliminating a commute.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
An extra 3 hours a day not dealing with office Bullshit?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
fantastic in plastic posted:How would you go about putting a dollar value on something less tangible, like the ability to work 100% remotely? I've thought about an approach like finding the average commute time in my local metro area and then multiplying that vs my consulting rate, but there are more things I find valuable about remote work than just eliminating a commute. I'm not sure how to really convey it to a recruiter. If you're only looking for 100% remote work, you can tell them that, if it's a nice to have but not a dealbreaker, it's trickier.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 21:04
|
|
|
Long read ahead: I've read through this thread as I've always been horrible at negotiations and I'm getting into a situation where it may become beneficial. I started at company A (pharma trial management) about a year and a half ago telling them what I made at my previous job (~55k). I was told $60k was the max they offer for starting as entry level here, which they gave me. They offer the typical benefits package (health insurance, 401k, etc). I love the job, the company treats me well. There are several large companies like mine and mine is known to pay on the low end, but they have a great training program, so I took the $60k to get a start. People in my job are in high demand. I got this job from networking on LinkedIn (thank you linked in thread) and I still have a profile there. A week doesn't go by where I don't get several calls/emails from industry recruiters. After I got a lovely raise this April (from only being there 6 months), I decided to follow up with a recruiter who had been emailing me for a large, well established competitor, company B. She said they'd need to wait for me to get about 18 months experience in my current position. They offer essentially the same job and benefits which includes fringe travel benefits that I have at company A. I didn't tell her what I made, but knowing my employer pays low, she said they'd be looking to start me between 80-85k. I recently got promoted with company A with raise to $73k ($12k raise). My manager said that was more than expected, but my metrics were fantastic for someone who had only been there a year. I told all this to the recruiter at company B (without the pay increase part) who keeps in touch with me. I assume company B wanted to wait for me to get experience to bring me in at the 2nd level (which I was just promoted to), I checked on Glassdoor and their average for the 2nd level position is ~$85k, whereas company A is ~$75k, fitting with the idea that they pay lower. Should I be granted interviews with company B and land an offer, I'll definitely ask for more than $85k to feel them out. I'm comfortable with company A, know the rules and my managers are fantastic so it'll take alot for me to want to make the switch. If I am granted an offer by company B, what's the best way to inform my employer? Do I tell them that I was offered $X salary or $more than I'm getting now? If I read correctly, it's best to only do this once and either accept if they counter or move on to company B and face the uncertainty (but embrace the higher pay), correct? People jump ship constantly in this line of work, with companies offering $10-20k bonuses frequently for people with experience, so I'm sure they won't be blindsided.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 04:31
|
|
|
I wouldn't plan on getting a counter offer and accepting it. It's something you can to do feel good about yourself and give you courage in future negotiations, but it may well just mark you as disloyal. Maybe you have a counter offer only as long as it takes you to train your replacement. It certainly depends on company culture but it's not something I'd rely on. If you want to have options besides just taking company B, look for company C.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 08:06
|
|
|
Thanks Jeffrey. Good plan and I'll keep that in mind. Should I even attempt to inform company A of company B's offer? Or only do that to tell them I'm leaving (if I choose to).
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 13:09
|
|
|
I personally wouldn't accept a counter offer*, much less ask for one. What's to stop you from jumping ship in 6 months anyway, and what's to stop your employer from starting plans to replace you? Everyone might feel better for a couple of days, but there's way too much risk of questioned loyalties creeping up for both sides as time goes on. It also won't fix the company's underlying structural issues that kept you underpaid in the first place, which will pop back up the very next time you should get an increase. The time for your company to pay you more is before you start looking. If you make your case based on your merits and they don't budge you should start looking with the intent to accept a good offer from someone else. *I'm sure there's special circumstances where I'd accept a counter offer, but I'd have to gain a lot by staying for a year or two longer and I'd have a plan to bounce after that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
Cacafuego posted:If I am granted an offer by company B, what's the best way to inform my employer? Do I tell them that I was offered $X salary or $more than I'm getting now? If I read correctly, it's best to only do this once and either accept if they counter or move on to company B and face the uncertainty (but embrace the higher pay), correct? People jump ship constantly in this line of work, with companies offering $10-20k bonuses frequently for people with experience, so I'm sure they won't be blindsided. I've played this move before and proceeded to stay at my same employer for another 2.5 years afterwards. Disloyalty is a minor dimension if you deliver, are valuable, and make your company money / make your boss look good. IF and ONLY IF you have an offer from B that you'd accept: Inform your employer that you believe that their compensation is inadequate and that you'd like to restructure your compensation package. Give them a realistic goal that keeps you where you are, and makes you happy to turn down the offer from B. IF and ONLY IF they ask for it, tell them why you think you deserve additional compensation. ("Because someone else will pay me that!") Do not show them your offer letter. Do not precisely identify your competing offer. Describing the competitor in vivid but ambiguous terms makes your assertion easier to believe. Your manager will probably either say "I need some time to make this happen." or "Good luck." If the latter, give two weeks on the spot and go to company B. If the former, get a commitment to a TIMELY response. A timely response looks like "I will let you know by next Friday, October 4th, if we can do that." If they do not give you the TIMELY response, give two weeks on the spot and go to company B. If they do not reach your goal, go to company B. If you aren't ready to leave, you aren't ready to stand up for yourself.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 17:18
|
|
|
Thanks for the responses. In a couple months when I've got my necessary time in, I'll see if company B is still interested. I'll use this info and probably take the offer outright if given the higher pay. In this business, people tend to bounce from company to company when they're not getting what they want with assignments and pay, so I don't want to burn any bridges if I do go with company B's offer. It's pretty funny talking to colleagues who literally go from company to company every couple of years to boost salary and get bonuses. If I've got the opportunity, might as well jump on the bandwagon!
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 17:59
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:I've played this move before and proceeded to stay at my same employer for another 2.5 years afterwards. Disloyalty is a minor dimension if you deliver, are valuable, and make your company money / make your boss look good. Jumping in to say you are such an asset to this thread. You helped me so much in leaving a toxic job a few months ago, and your advice and insight is consistently excellent.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 20:06
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:I've played this move before and proceeded to stay at my same employer for another 2.5 years afterwards. Disloyalty is a minor dimension if you deliver, are valuable, and make your company money / make your boss look good. This is pretty much exactly what you should do in this situation. FWIW, I think the whole "never take a counter-offer" thing is entirely overblown on the internet. If you are not easily replaceable and are otherwise a valuable, professional team member, then sometimes you have to force the issue if your compensation has lagged behind the market. Turnover is extremely expensive and good companies generally want to avoid it if possible. It's not disloyalty, it's just business.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 20:55
|
|
|
Guinness posted:This is pretty much exactly what you should do in this situation. Of course, I can only give very general advice here, which is no substitute to specifics about the company in question. If you know how they've treated people in your situation in the past, that is hugely valuable information that can certainly supersede anything I've said.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 21:09
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This is the rational thing for a company to do, but it isn't always true. (Well maybe it's rational - you could make a case for seeking out and hiring people who will be loyal even when it doesn't make sense for them to be.) Especially in small companies, people take things personally. I know multiple people who have been fired on the spot because they were caught interviewing with competitors. In general, I think actually being genuinely irreplaceable is very rare. Lots of people feel that way, lots of people fantasize about the company falling apart without them, I wager that's a lot less common than people hope. Even if some people are hard to replace, reasoning by way of "I'm hard to replace, therefore X" strikes me as dangerous in a world where managers are people with emotions who have a big part of their lives invested in where they work. Most of my experience is with small companies, where I generally choose to work, so do keep that in mind. It's also important to remember that being "irreplaceable" doesn't mean the company can't find someone they consider to meet the much easier qualification of "good enough". I 100% agree that having information on how your manager/company has acted in similar situations is worth its weight in gold. On a planet with 7 billion people there's certainly managers and companies who are okay with you looking around for other positions and who wouldn't become disillusioned after giving you a counter offer. I just wouldn't bet my job on it being a commonly held position by employers, and I personally haven't had the luxury of working for one yet. A GIANT PARSNIP fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Oct 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2016 00:16
|
|
|
Well I just got out of an interview that I thought was going to be a disaster, but it actually went very well and they said they were going to send me an offer next week. It's up in the 'dream job' category, but something the interviewer said kind of concerned me. It was along the lines of "we're a small company and aren't likely to offer a market salary" or something. He then pushed me to provide a salary expectation, but I declined (thanks thread). Is this just a tactic to try to lowball new candidates? I'm going to be pissed if their offer is lower or equivalent to my current salary, I don't want to have to pick between 'dream job' and 'reasonable income'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2016 00:46
|
|
|
a fleshy snood posted:Well I just got out of an interview that I thought was going to be a disaster, but it actually went very well and they said they were going to send me an offer next week. They definitely know their pay scales are below average and are very likely to low ball you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2016 04:20
|
|
|
Guinness posted:This is pretty much exactly what you should do in this situation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2016 23:19
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:But, good companies in general are already paying the market rate. If you're far enough below the market rate that moving gets you a big raise, you're likely already dealing with unreasonable people trying to take advantage of you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2016 23:37
|
|
|
In general I agree there's some overweighting of the fears around counteroffers, but it describes a very real risk. You can give an otherwise pleasing employer all the opportunities without the overt "disloyalty" by demanding salary correction without actually pulling out the competing offer to club them with. At the end of the day, if you are able to get a competing offer once, you are very likely able to get a competing offer again. Possessing a competing offer and asking for things knowing it is your BATNA is negotiating. Someone firing you for demanding a salary correction is punishing you for negotiating. Dik Hz has covered the entire convo about entities that punish you for negotiating. If you're really worried about it take your raise and sock it away into an emergency fund so that if you do get retributively fired you can draw from it while getting your next offer. Bitchkrieg posted:Jumping in to say you are such an asset to this thread. You helped me so much in leaving a toxic job a few months ago, and your advice and insight is consistently excellent.  Just trying to help other people sharing what I've learned. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2016 14:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 03:03 |
|
|
So I received the offer I posted about earlier that I was told would be low, and well, they weren't joking. It's slightly more than what I'm making at the moment, but not nearly enough to justify leaving my current position. I'm going to tell them my required 'comfortable' number now, but I feel a little ridiculous because it's around 30% higher than their initial offer. I think it's very likely out of their budget, but I guess I've got nothing to lose.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2016 14:24
|
|