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Fiction posted:Sure its cheaper for energy companies to lobby for nonsense like "clean coal" instead of adapting to material conditions because it's better at maximizing profit while the world literally burns from climate change, but at least we were able to compromise with them really really good. Is this a problem that is addressed by actually existing socialism?
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Oct 22, 2016 15:36
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Wikkheiser posted:I do think Marxists have underestimated liberal-capitalism's ability to basically lurch from crisis to crisis and still, somehow, muddle through. Every time a more hard-edged, red socialism is implemented, there's a rush toward it because unlike liberalism, here's a chance to be decisive and really build something different. I, personally, would not praise an ideology by calling it a cockroach one, but you can do whatever you like.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:38
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Fiction posted:I'm sure the thousands of people killing themselves when their homes are foreclosed on during the next financial crisis will be satisfied that we tried just tried really hard to stop it from happening without actually changing the economic structure that caused it in the first place Surely, they will have we erased the 2008 financial crisis from memory just as they did with the savings and loan crisis.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:39
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China has drastically reduced its coal use in the past couple years under Xi thanks to the ability there of the oligarchs to control those facets of the economy. In the US our politicians have no such power because they are completely beholden to the industry.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:40
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Fiction posted:I'm sure the thousands of people killing themselves when their homes are foreclosed on during the next financial crisis will be satisfied that we tried just tried really hard to stop it from happening without actually changing the economic structure that caused it in the first place Brainiac Five posted:I, personally, would not praise an ideology by calling it a cockroach one, but you can do whatever you like.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:42
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Neither of those are really accurate descriptors of the political situations in those countries but maybe I haven't spent enough time making insane posts about spaceship games to know the ins and outs of liberal democracy
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Oct 22, 2016 15:43
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Fiction posted:China has drastically reduced its coal use in the past couple years under Xi thanks to the ability there of the oligarchs to control those facets of the economy. In the US our politicians have no such power because they are completely beholden to the industry. Capitalism's problem is its sub-standard oligarchs.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:43
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asdf32 posted:Capitalism's problem is its sub-standard oligarchs. That's correct.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:44
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Wikkheiser posted:They certainly will not, and that's why liberal systems will produce demands for changing the economic structure. But overall, liberalism's chaos and stupid, blind confidence means it'll likely to prevail over the more efficient, illiberal alternatives. I'd bet, for instance, that India's junkyard democracy will outlast China's authoritarian version of capitalism. India's system has also produced a perpetual low-level Maoist uprising. Liberalism's cockroach survival is only really true in areas where there's a baseline level of prosperity that is seen as normal and which the current situation is merely a disruption of. Japan's decades of stagnation have seen the membership of the JCP grow. In much of the world, communist guerrillas are simply a fact of life, and despite terrorist violence, drug trafficking, and in the case of Shining Path extortion of food and supplies from peasant villages, they have been extremely difficult to squash permanently.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:48
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Rated PG-34 posted:Guys, I figured it out. The answer is commie deep dish pizza. deep dish is revisionism
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Oct 22, 2016 15:48
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Building coal and natural gas power plants will remain the rationally superior option to nukes and renewables until it's too late to make any difference.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:50
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Brainiac Five posted:India's system has also produced a perpetual low-level Maoist uprising. Liberalism's cockroach survival is only really true in areas where there's a baseline level of prosperity that is seen as normal and which the current situation is merely a disruption of. Japan's decades of stagnation have seen the membership of the JCP grow. In much of the world, communist guerrillas are simply a fact of life, and despite terrorist violence, drug trafficking, and in the case of Shining Path extortion of food and supplies from peasant villages, they have been extremely difficult to squash permanently.
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Oct 22, 2016 16:04
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Wikkheiser posted:Sure. And who knows? Capitalism and liberalism might not make it out of the 21st century. The climate might be the thing that does it in. But even if you could imagine a worst-case scenario that really wallops the planet, and had to make a bet on a creature with the best chance of survival, I'd still bet on the cockroach. Passiveness is for cockroaches. Human beings think and plan and act.
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Oct 22, 2016 16:08
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Wikkheiser posted:There's a similar attraction on the illiberal, authoritarian right toward Putin, but I'd bet that messy, adaptable liberalism will outlast him, too. Putin rose to power because Liberal rule in Russia during the 90s proved to be a disaster. Liberalism didn't survive the crisis of Russian shock therapy, but I guess if they coup Putin and start selling off state shares in Gazprom you'll insist that the cockroach determination of liberalism has re-asserted itself and conquered the crisis of Putinism. The aristocracies of Europe also survived cockroach-like, several crises of their age, and the feudal nobility before them. Landed gentry asserted control of the Chinese countryside for thousands of years before eventually being overthrown through communist revolution. Liberalism in China couldn't survive warlordism, or the direct challenges of Maoist insurgency. Liberalism didn't survive the Great Depression in continental Europe, either. It's funny how often it bounces back inevitably from all these crises - except when it doesn't. Actually Existing Cuban Socialism* survived the loss of its single greatest trade partner, and has since weathered a withering economic embargo from its most powerful neighbor. They still manage to meet several indicators of quality of life for its masses, and in several cases exceed the accomplishments of the United States. It's amazing how Cuban Socialism can manage to bounce back cockaroach-like from every crisis capitalism has thrown at it.
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Oct 22, 2016 16:54
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Cuba is also actually doing some really good stuff right now as far as reforming into worker cooperatives goes and so on. In the past, when liberal capitalism was so able to survive, it at least had the smart idea of creating a relatively prosperous working and middle class in the west, where the centers of power and industry were. This meant you had a population strongly backing you at home which let you freely go and gently caress poo poo up around the globe. Now, however, global neoliberalism will try to set all workers wages to be equally low via offshoring and automation. That means there's no "home base" of happy, fulfilled people for the liberal capitalists to retreat to like in the old days. They'll be under attack on all fronts, even their own backyard.
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Oct 22, 2016 17:53
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Fiction posted:You are aware that employees can't fire their bosses, right? Just checking in here. drat i miss the ussr
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Oct 23, 2016 23:43
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Wikkheiser posted:I do think Marxists have underestimated liberal-capitalism's ability to basically lurch from crisis to crisis and still, somehow, muddle through. Every time a more hard-edged, red socialism is implemented, there's a rush toward it because unlike liberalism, here's a chance to be decisive and really build something different. The Qing/Romanov/Bourbon/etc dynasty has lasted for centuries! Every once in a while something shakes it up but does anything ever really changed?
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Oct 24, 2016 02:55
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Show me one historical example of global capitalism collapsing. ...Not even once? Well, it seems that your "scientific" "theory" holds no water. 
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Oct 24, 2016 03:29
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Odobenidae posted:Show me one historical example of global capitalism collapsing. Finally everyone is agreed. Time to close the thread.
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Oct 24, 2016 03:41
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Freedom owns.
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Oct 24, 2016 05:54
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Yeah I'm so happy to be free to be ruled solely by business elites
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Oct 24, 2016 12:36
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If you don't believe Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser were meant to be, then yeah, you should just go vote for Donald Trump.
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Oct 24, 2016 16:08
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shook, loving shoooook, these nimrods are shooker than hell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXYNRdis-4k
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Oct 24, 2016 18:37
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Homework Explainer posted:shook, loving shoooook, these nimrods are shooker than hell "Stalin killed so many people that they can't count them because there was no reporting on it" lol Bill, you're making it sound like Grover Furr has a point
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Oct 24, 2016 18:59
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the death toll of Iraq is uncountable if you think about it
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Oct 24, 2016 19:04
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:The Qing/Romanov/Bourbon/etc dynasty has lasted for centuries! Every once in a while something shakes it up but does anything ever really changed? Things will change, it's just that the change is prob not socialist revolution at this point One of the things Marx fail to foresee for instance is the rise of fascism and right-wing populism in general, he expected any kind of radical revolution to be left-winged by default. Instead in Europe after 1919 you had way more successful right wing than left wing revolutions.
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Oct 24, 2016 19:06
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The Saurus posted:Cuba is also actually doing some really good stuff right now as far as reforming into worker cooperatives goes and so on. The flip side of this is that wages are rising in developed countries as well. While it might be true wages will be converging between China and the USA: it's quite possible this convergence still leaves the average America better off than they were in the 1980s. A globalized middle class might actually prove be quite stable for the liberal world order. Automation OTOH yeah I don't really know how that's gonna be dealt with other than maybe a GMI
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Oct 24, 2016 19:09
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Brainiac Five posted:India's system has also produced a perpetual low-level Maoist uprising. Liberalism's cockroach survival is only really true in areas where there's a baseline level of prosperity that is seen as normal and which the current situation is merely a disruption of. Japan's decades of stagnation have seen the membership of the JCP grow. In much of the world, communist guerrillas are simply a fact of life, and despite terrorist violence, drug trafficking, and in the case of Shining Path extortion of food and supplies from peasant villages, they have been extremely difficult to squash permanently. Man if this was 6 month earlier you'd prob be trumpeting the imminent victory of FARC too
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Oct 24, 2016 19:18
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Typo posted:Man if this was 6 month earlier you'd prob be trumpeting the imminent victory of FARC too I didn't say anything about them winning. Is there a curse on you such that you will die in agony if you ever behave honestly and decently?
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Oct 24, 2016 19:42
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Out of all the hot takes on socialism "Marx didn't take reactionaries into account" is probably the weirdest.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:11
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yooo shout out to PissPigGrandad, keepin it real in Rojava https://twitter.com/PissPigGranddad/status/790409142984962048 
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Oct 24, 2016 20:26
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Fiction posted:Out of all the hot takes on socialism "Marx didn't take reactionaries into account" is probably the weirdest. w.r.t fascism which emerged in interbellum Europe no he definitely did not Typo fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Oct 24, 2016 |
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Oct 24, 2016 20:57
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Typo posted:w.r.t fascism which emerged in interbellum Europe no he definitely did not Marx not predicting the particular form of reactionary politics 40-50 years later is not the same thing as him failing to consider the possibility of right-wing revolutionary politics. Try to put some rigor in your drive-bys, you haven't shot a single person dead yet.
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Oct 24, 2016 21:32
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Brainiac Five posted:Marx not predicting the particular form of reactionary politics 40-50 years later is not the same thing as him failing to consider the possibility of right-wing revolutionary politics. The kind of right-wing revolutionary politics Marx considered is distantly enough from actual historical right-wing revolutionary politics I don't consider it particularly useful or predictive: and the historical examples were order of magnitudes more destructive too
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Oct 25, 2016 00:01
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Typo posted:The kind of right-wing revolutionary politics Marx considered is distantly enough from actual historical right-wing revolutionary politics I don't consider it particularly useful or predictive: and the historical examples were order of magnitudes more destructive too So Marx is invalid because he didn't predict the existence of fascism. I got some bad news for you about any political thinker.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:18
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Brainiac Five posted:So Marx is invalid because he didn't predict the existence of fascism. By itself? No, his failure to predict fascism does not invalidate Marxism. It does however make any revolutionary change from the status quo a lot dicier than what M-L are willing to acknowledge.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:23
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Typo posted:By itself? No, his failure to predict fascism does not invalidate Marxism. It does however make any revolutionary change from the status quo a lot dicier than what M-L are willing to acknowledge. What? This has got to be the stupidest effort at justifying the status quo I've ever seen. I admire your guts at trying it. Anyways, what makes anarchists, left-coms, Maoists, and other such groups immune?
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Oct 25, 2016 00:36
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Oct 25, 2016 04:55
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Homework Explainer posted:If you don't believe Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser were meant to be, then yeah, you should just go vote for Donald Trump. It's true.
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Oct 25, 2016 05:07
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y'know if you commie dorks don't actually up and revolt one of these days, this whole thread will just be a big buncha nothing
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Oct 25, 2016 06:12
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