|
Friendly Factory posted:I don't think most Israelis would oppose that. It's just that there are enough crazies that it would become political suicide. In my anecdotal experience, they would. Most Israelis aren't religious but there's still a very strong undercurrent of 'tradition' and a Jewish state is deemed is very important, even at the expense of others.
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 11:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 03:40 |
|
|
Most israelis according to a very recent poll support total expulsion as a solution to israel's demographic problem so make of that what you will.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 00:55
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic? How exactly does that affect the Israel/Palestine situation? "Muslim Countries" aren't some unified group of people and it certainly doesn't make sense to group Palestinians with all other random Muslims in the region. Realistically, most countries in the region have constituents who dislike Israel, so it is often politically beneficial to only openly say negative things about the country.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 01:06
|
|
|
What is the general public opinion of the presidential candidates in Israel?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 02:10
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic? right wing junta yells at islamic resistance movement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 05:23
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic? Hey LeoMarr as a fellow SA poster and brother in arms in the struggle against the database not being full, I'd like to ask you to stop using intentional logical fallacies as a posting tactic. But you won't, will you, so I'm just wasting everyone's time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 09:26
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:What is the general public opinion of the presidential candidates in Israel? Trump would be a disaster for the US but good for Israel, Hilary would be better for the states but not as good for Israel. That's what I've understood from the Likud people I know in Israel anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 15:40
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic? Why do you think that muslim countries give any poo poo about palestinians and wont fight Israel to last drop of palestinian blood? After all majority of posters in this thread dont.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 15:58
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic? Hamas doesn't take orders from "Muslim countries", nor does it expect any meaningful benefit to come out of following any requests or orders by foreign countries. Grouchio posted:What is the general public opinion of the presidential candidates in Israel? According to polling, it's pretty much an even split among Israeli Jews - of those who hold an opinion besides "I don't know", 51% think Trump would be better for Israel's interests vs 49% who think Hillary would be better for Israel. Among Israeli Arabs, a large majority (74%!) think Trump would better suit Israel's interests, which I think says more about Israeli Arabs' perception of the Israeli government than it does about Trump. The Israeli media is all over the place. In general, the clearly left-wing outlets support Clinton, the clearly right-wing outlets support Trump, and everything in between is hilariously inconsistent, with writers at the same paper often having completely opposite views on the matter. In general, most of these opinions are anti- rather than pro-, although there is some support for Trump's policies on immigration and Muslims (i.e., racism).
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 19:14
|
|
|
I'm starting to think you people are physically incapable of not responding to a racist saying intentionally inflammatory things.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 23:36
|
|
|
drilldo squirt posted:I'm starting to think you people are physically incapable of not responding to a racist saying intentionally inflammatory things. It's been a slow thread last couple of months.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 08:20
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Why havent Muslim Countries actively voiced to Hamas that they want them to quit terrorism as a political tactic? 1. Palestinian relationships with neighbouring countries have been almost uniformly terrible since the days of the Grand Mufti 2. It won't achieve anything for Palestine 3. It's bad domestic politics in virtually every part of the Arab world
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 08:29
|
|
|
Ultramega posted:Most israelis according to a very recent poll support total expulsion as a solution to israel's demographic problem so make of that what you will. I looked this up and most sources I read said 48%, but there was a majority among religious israelies. I'm a religious Jew in the US & this makes me angry and ashamed. After all the bigotry and expulsions we have faced, how can any Jew morally support this? Using cultural pride to let us see other people as lesser or have less rights is intolerable. Enophos fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Oct 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 13:18
|
|
|
Enophos posted:I looked this up and most sources I read said 48%, but there was a majority among religious israelies. I'm a religious Jew in the US & this makes me angry and ashamed. After all the bigotry and expulsions we have faced, how can any Jew morally support this? Allowing cultural pride to see other people as lesser or have less rights is exactly what the Nazi's did. The problem with the Nazis' crime isn't what they did, but to whom they did it. That's the apparent Israeli consensus anyway. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Oct 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 13:29
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:The problem with the Nazis' crime isn't what they did, but to whom they did it. I just edited the Nazi reference out since it was a really divisive term for me to use, but I share your sentiment. Anyone who can see the same attitude as a crime or acceptable depending on who is the victim is delusional at best.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 13:56
|
|
|
I don't mean Israelis are modern day Nazis, I meant to highlight the rational and historical lunacy of the situation. Unfortunately I have seen the Nazi/Israeli comparison used in racist and holocaust denying arguments so I regret bringing it up. I served in US military in Iraq & was shot at and had people I knew killed by people who happened to be Arabs and Muslims. I have had years to reflect that the people I fought had a whole range of reasons for what they did just as I did. Regardless of the reasons or intentions, I went to where they lived and caused them harm so they retaliated. Regardless of the reasons or intentions, people I knew and cared about were maimed or died because of them. It was a bad & messy situation for everyone and I work hard not to let my own suffering prejudice me against Arabs or Muslims. It is morally wrong as well as destructive so it really pains me for a large group I identify with and have similar experiences seem to embrace this hatred. Enophos fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Oct 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 14:49
|
|
|
Enophos posted:I looked this up and most sources I read said 48%, but there was a majority among religious israelies. I'm a religious Jew in the US & this makes me angry and ashamed. After all the bigotry and expulsions we have faced, how can any Jew morally support this? Using cultural pride to let us see other people as lesser or have less rights is intolerable. Unfortunately, persecuted minorities learning reconciliation and love and humanity toward all oppressed peoples as a result of their own experiences is the exception, not the rule. Among some, particularly right-wing Zionists and religious Zionists, their take-away from the long history of persecution of Jews isn't "persecuting minorities is bad", but rather "the Jewish people are uniquely subject to universal hatred and persecution". The lesson some people learned from the Holocaust wasn't "ethnic cleansing is bad and no one should be subjected to it", it was "this was a unique horror that could only happen to Jews, non-Jews cannot be relied on or trusted, and therefore Jews must do whatever it takes to protect and bolster their people against other peoples". For a more in-depth explanation, let's ask the extreme right themselves what their take on this is: quote:What is the fundamental lesson of the Holocaust for Israel and the Jewish people? There is a divergence of opinion: This is actually a decent introduction to right-wing thought, since it ropes in a number of elements common among articles like this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 15:01
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Unfortunately, persecuted minorities learning reconciliation and love and humanity toward all oppressed peoples as a result of their own experiences is the exception, not the rule. Among some, particularly right-wing Zionists and religious Zionists, their take-away from the long history of persecution of Jews isn't "persecuting minorities is bad", but rather "the Jewish people are uniquely subject to universal hatred and persecution". The lesson some people learned from the Holocaust wasn't "ethnic cleansing is bad and no one should be subjected to it", it was "this was a unique horror that could only happen to Jews, non-Jews cannot be relied on or trusted, and therefore Jews must do whatever it takes to protect and bolster their people against other peoples". For a more in-depth explanation, let's ask the extreme right themselves what their take on this is: Ethnocentrism is a hell of a drug.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 16:25
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Unfortunately, persecuted minorities learning reconciliation and love and humanity toward all oppressed peoples as a result of their own experiences is the exception, not the rule. Among some, particularly right-wing Zionists and religious Zionists, their take-away from the long history of persecution of Jews isn't "persecuting minorities is bad", but rather "the Jewish people are uniquely subject to universal hatred and persecution". The lesson some people learned from the Holocaust wasn't "ethnic cleansing is bad and no one should be subjected to it", it was "this was a unique horror that could only happen to Jews, non-Jews cannot be relied on or trusted, and therefore Jews must do whatever it takes to protect and bolster their people against other peoples". Black Lives Matter's main objective, you would think, would be "persecuting minorities is bad" since there are lots of minorities other than blacks being shot by police, but instead they're all like: "blacks are uniquely subject to universal hatred and persecution by police in the US".
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 16:40
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:Black Lives Matter's main objective, you would think, would be "persecuting minorities is bad" since there are lots of minorities other than blacks being shot by police, but instead they're all like: "blacks are uniquely subject to universal hatred and persecution by police in the US". This is why we can't have an international worker's movement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 17:13
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:For a more in-depth explanation, let's ask the extreme right themselves what their take on this is: So, there's a whole lot in that article that is amazingly hosed-up, but this really stood out to me: quote:For those of the Never-Again viewpoint, the Hebron terrorist came to kill Jews, like a classic Nazi, and ended up dead. Was it OK to shoot the terrorist when he was down? Maybe yes, maybe no – but that’s not the big issue. The Jewish people are at war with a global Jihad which seeks to destroy Israel and to kill Jews for being Jews. The bottom line is that Israel must, first and foremost, protect Jews, and be the Never Again country which prevents the Nazis of today from harming one hair on one Jewish head. In the space of two paragraphs, the author effectively says that morality doesn't matter (he admits that killing an unarmed person in cold blood might not be "OK", which I have a hard time interpreting as anything other than a moral question, but says that it doesn't matter either way), and then immediately talks about how Jews are inherently more moral than everyone else. How do these people not explode from sheer cognitive dissonance? By the way, is the idea that Hitler persecuted and killed Jews for being "the embodiment of morality" or "the conscience of the world" common among the Israeli right? I haven't really heard of that before, but I suppose it shouldn't be surprising. I would ask what that says about the other groups persecuted and killed by the Nazis, but I already know that most right-wing Israelis are effectively Holocaust deniers when it comes to any group other than Jews.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 17:33
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:Black Lives Matter's main objective, you would think, would be "persecuting minorities is bad" since there are lots of minorities other than blacks being shot by police, but instead they're all like: "blacks are uniquely subject to universal hatred and persecution by police in the US". Not sure why you're bringing this up, since it's completely unrelated to Israel and Palestine - and also false. To correct both of those things, I'd note that Black Lives Matter's creed of "it is wrong for ethnic minorities to be treated as dangerous criminals and abused by police and security forces solely because of their ethnicity" has brought it into direct conflict with pro-Israel groups, who have been denouncing BLM for some months because BLM has accused Israel of apartheid.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 17:35
|
|
|
I don't know when it started but the "give people who post like they have half a brain a down syndrome avatar" is awesome and I hope you idiots keep contributing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 18:43
|
|
|
Yihai Fleisher posted:The father of Nazism, Adolf Hitler, hunted Jews precisely because we were the embodiment of morality, the “conscience of the world” which he wanted to wipe out. Let's file that along with "they hate us for our freedoms". Yihai Fleisher posted:Anyone who really knows the Jewish and Israeli people knows that we have never been in danger of becoming Nazis. To the contrary (and contrary to global media), we are a source of light, liberty, and progress, regionally and globally. "We are better in all points that the other, inferior races. That's why we're safe from becoming Nazis." Secular Humanist posted:Tripe. I can see how you got your avatar text.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 19:03
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:So, there's a whole lot in that article that is amazingly hosed-up, but this really stood out to me: It seems strange to you because you're working from the basic premise that morality is based in actions, while that writer is working from the basic premise that morality is determined by some other factor and therefore the "good guys" don't lose their moral superiority by doing bad things to the "bad guys". Even though murdering an unarmed person is a "bad thing", it doesn't really matter to that writer, because a good guy did it to a bad guy and therefore it's a-okay. You see the same thing in domestic US debates, where it's okay for police or the army or the NSA or whoever to trample all over people's rights because they're the "good guys" who do it only in pursuit of whoever they think are the "bad guys". The idea of a Jewish moral superiority is something that has bounced around in the Jewish religious right for quite a while (it's drawn from various Old Testament quotes, particularly some words from Isaiah about Israel being "a light unto the nations"). It did play a role in some Zionist thought (Ben-Gurion in particular was apparently fond of those Isaiah quotes), and it seems to be a common right-wing explanation for anti-Semitism, but I wouldn't say it's that common in modern Israeli right-wing discourse. Instead, the new hotness seems to be a focus more on negative messages about the moral inferiority of other groups - particularly focused on specific groups, like Muslims, but sometimes it seems like no far-right Israeli article about things like BDS or pro-Palestinian UN votes is complete without a reminder about the moral unreliability of even "friendly" gentiles.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2016 21:50
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:In the space of two paragraphs, the author effectively says that morality doesn't matter (he admits that killing an unarmed person in cold blood might not be "OK", which I have a hard time interpreting as anything other than a moral question, but says that it doesn't matter either way), and then immediately talks about how Jews are inherently more moral than everyone else. How do these people not explode from sheer cognitive dissonance? The point the author seems to be trying to make is that whatever moral qualms one might have about a soldier shooting an incapacitated terrorist in the head, those pale before the moral atrocities that Israel's enemies want to carry out. And that condemning the former is misguided or naive since any moral person should realize the latter is a vastly greater evil. It's not a position I agree with but it's also the same position one hears in the "How dare you talk about Jewish victimhood when Israel is committing genocide in Gaza!" sort of argument made by certain segments of the anti-Zionist fringe, selective moral blindness isn't something only the Israeli right are prone to. quote:By the way, is the idea that Hitler persecuted and killed Jews for being "the embodiment of morality" or "the conscience of the world" common among the Israeli right? I haven't really heard of that before, but I suppose it shouldn't be surprising. I would ask what that says about the other groups persecuted and killed by the Nazis, but I already know that most right-wing Israelis are effectively Holocaust deniers when it comes to any group other than Jews. Any source on this? I'm not aware of any prominent Israeli figures who deny the Nazi killing of non-Jews. Excepting the Gilad Atzmon types who also deny the Holocaust, that is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 01:05
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Any source on this? I'm not aware of any prominent Israeli figures who deny the Nazi killing of non-Jews. Excepting the Gilad Atzmon types who also deny the Holocaust, that is. It's not about denying that they were killed; it's about denying that they were part of the Holocaust. It goes hand in hand with the idea that the Jewish genocide was completely unique, and that there was some kind of extremely important qualitative difference between Jews and other victims of the Nazis. If someone says "yes, Jews were killed, but it wasn't genocide; a lot of Jews just happened to be targeted by the Nazis", they would generally (and rightly, in my opinion) be labelled a Holocaust denier. I'm just applying the same logic to those who would say things like that about the Roma, for example. Now, in fairness, I can't really say authoritatively that a majority of right-wing Israelis actually believe that. But considering how common such beliefs seem to be among those who argue for the uniqueness of Jews as victims (it is not hard to find examples of people opposing recognition of Roma and other non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust, but I can give you some if you really don't believe me), it seemed like a safe assumption that most right-wing Israelis would subscribe to a similar belief. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the Israeli right could shed some light on it. Naturally I'd be happy to be wrong.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 06:28
|
|
|
listen friends. i will only say it once. let it be known that we're the trilobite fossils left behind by the retreat of a great and terrible ocean. we're the ashes of a bonfire. we're dust. the moth has fled and left its traces on the carpet. the star died two hundred years ago and only now is its last light reaching us. but there's a great recreator who will return us to our former glory if we can only show that we can handle our role as protectors of humankind with justice and compassion. when we serve the poison men who've taken over israel and want to use it as a weapon against people who are their cousins if not their brothers, we become that weapon. we are just a weapon. we're only prolonging our false renaissance and tricking ourselves into thinking that we have power when in fact nothing stands behind us except the false promises of the goyim. the power that has lifted us up before and will lift us up again is not on earth but in heaven. we are being judged by something far greater than mortal courts. this i have been told and this i know, blessed be the name
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 10:35
|
|
|
Is this the point in time when you declare yourself the great recreator or what?
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 12:05
|
|
|
the great recreator is the great creator and creation you idiot. the name
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 12:49
|
|
|
the word
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 12:49
|
|
|
nothing else loving matters in the heart of things
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 12:49
|
|
|
Haha well somebody really didn't understand my last post itt but I'm glad I could contribute monitarily to the forums!
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 17:45
|
|
|
Secular Humanist posted:Haha well somebody really didn't understand my last post itt but I'm glad I could contribute monitarily to the forums! http://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=217390
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 18:21
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:It's not about denying that they were killed; it's about denying that they were part of the Holocaust. It goes hand in hand with the idea that the Jewish genocide was completely unique, and that there was some kind of extremely important qualitative difference between Jews and other victims of the Nazis. But it was unique and there was an important difference. I'm not sure where you're getting this from given that the definition of the Holocaust specifies that it was the genocide of Jews by the Nazis. Here's an extremely brief sampling of thirty seconds of googling for a definition of the Holocaust: quote:the mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–45. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups, such as gypsies and homosexuals, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz. quote:Now, in fairness, I can't really say authoritatively that a majority of right-wing Israelis actually believe that. But considering how common such beliefs seem to be among those who argue for the uniqueness of Jews as victims (it is not hard to find examples of people opposing recognition of Roma and other non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust, but I can give you some if you really don't believe me), it seemed like a safe assumption that most right-wing Israelis would subscribe to a similar belief. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the Israeli right could shed some light on it. Naturally I'd be happy to be wrong. You're not providing any evidence of genocide denial. Reasserting the simple historical fact that there was something unique in the Nazi persecution of Jews doesn't deny that there were other groups targeted for genocide by the Nazis or that they deserve to be memorialized. If there's anything approaching Holocaust revisionism, it's the #AllLivesMatter sort of insistence that it was the "Final Solution To The People We Want Dead Some of Whom Just Happen To Be Jews But Also Includes Many Other Groups Question" rather than the 'Final Solution To The Jewish Question (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 19:50
|
|
|
The definition you quoted specifies that the Holocaust refers to the murder of Jewish people and the murder of LGBT people, Romani people, Jehovah's Witnesses, disabled people, dissenters, and communists, contradicting your claim, you weird-rear end Hebrew fetishist.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 20:01
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:
Enlighten me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 20:09
|
|
|
How was the sacking of baghdad by genghis khan's mongols less reprehensible than the nazi response to the warsaw uprising? WAY more people got raped and butchered, especially in front of their family members in the baghdad case than compared to the warsaw uprising but if you're going to claim that jewish persecution in the holocaust was a uniquely tragic and special case of inhumanity I don't think you have a leg to stand on. Where is the smoking gun/mountain of skulls you're going to pull out here to prove your point? It makes me want to vomit in someone's loving mouth when I hear about how uniquely moral jews are when there's plenty of documented jewish atrocities especially during the war of independence. Like forcing a pregnant woman to tidy up a square for the officers to have their tea and slaughter breaks in and then executing her as they left deir yassin. Or turning the southeastern border of israel and jordan into a free-fire zone that resulted in hundreds of unarmed people killed/old people captured and castrated and left to bleed to death/women raped in custody etc. That's mighty fuckin' moral alright. No ethnic group should ever get some special mandate to mete out violence because this is what happens. Secular Humanist posted:Haha well somebody really didn't understand my last post itt but I'm glad I could contribute monitarily to the forums! i hope you forget how to breathe (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 03:40 |
|
|
The most convincing argument I've heard for the uniqueness of the Holocaust as a tragedy is that it was the first industrial, almost mechanised slaughter of humans. This was also true for every other target of the Nazis, though, so it still doesn't really hold true.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2016 21:03
|
|