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TheChirurgeon posted:As cool as the Alpharius/Omegon stuff is, I've never seen it acknowledged outside the novels, and never heard so much as a whiff of rules appearing for Omegon. Which is a shame, and also dumb as hell. Why would he have different rules than Alpharius?
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Oct 25, 2016 21:17
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HQ: Alpharius (0-2)
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Oct 25, 2016 21:24
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mango sentinel posted:Why would he have different rules than Alpharius? He wouldn't, because Alpharius is dead for real as of the Horus Heresy books, killed by Rogal Dorn. Omegon decides to take Alpharius' name and position. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 25, 2016 21:48
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Alpharius was also the 'good' twin if that makes any sense
BULBASAUR fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Oct 25, 2016 |
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Oct 25, 2016 22:47
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Cythereal. You should probably spoiler that with an appropriate warning. That's a real recent book.
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Oct 25, 2016 23:27
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The Dark Angels in the closet thing is pretty in your face if you know where to look. Pretty clever on GW's part https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Johnson
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Oct 26, 2016 01:01
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Old-school GW was full of literary/film nerds. The Night Lords' fluff is basically a bunch of references to Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now
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Oct 26, 2016 01:08
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Safety Factor posted:Old-school GW was full of literary/film nerds. The Night Lords' fluff is basically a bunch of references to Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now Oh wow, it was right in front of me the whole time 
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Oct 26, 2016 01:37
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It's still my personal belief that all Dark Angels go through a "no-dad-gently caress-you" phase and join chaos until the Dark Angels hunt them down, take them back to the rock, and slap them on the wrists. Only the original fallen are actually killed. Explains why there are still so many after umpeen years.
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Oct 26, 2016 01:55
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mango sentinel posted:Why would he have different rules than Alpharius? Because they had different roles in the legion and were two separate people? At the very least, the rules could give a nod to having both of them on the field, but they don't even do that, which is just lazy in my opinion. moths posted:HQ: Alpharius (0-2) This would be on the right track, and at least be something.
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Oct 26, 2016 02:54
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Proletariat Beowulf posted:Not a few HH books specifically outline that Space Marines are functionally immortal and exclusively die of violence, and never natural aging. This was sort of better handled in 2E/3E (when I really played) even though it was still pretty drat vague. They're not really "immortal" in the sense of a god. They do age, and that toll plus the numerous injuries they sustain means that most of them die off in an age range that would be considered not all that old for a rich human pumped full of life extensions or an eldar either of which had a vastly less violent existence. Furthermore, due to the nature of the injuries it takes to incapacitate or even hurt a marine, most of them will happily keep fighting straight to their death, or do something they know drat well will kill them. So if one of them is "injured enough to be incapacitated for the fight" the only sensible options are usually dreadnaught or mercy killing them and taking their gene seed. And if it wasn't that bad, they can just bolt on some cybernetics and call it a day. Given that most of humanity never see's a space marine, and doesn't have the same sort of age defying options as the upper class, marines appear functionally immortal. As the known big names tend to stick around for a few hundred years and die a heroes death. To the average human, they are functionally immortal demigods who've been around as long as anyone in your family or any history you know about has existed. And death in battle due to being an old loving fart is still death in battle. Plus the general lack of information about chaos in general, and the fact that known chaos marines have actually been around since first created before the heresy. So it's certainly in the realm of possibility they could be immortal, even if the loyal ones keep ending up dead for some reason. Plus, some of the chapters known for longevity are more known for their youth. Grimnar wasn't a pup when he became chapter master and their are space wolves old enough to still taunt him for being young... despite him being chapter master for over 700 years. So there are space wolves that clock in around Dante's age. The difference being the wolves physical appearance changes much more with age than the blood angels. Visually, sans armor, there isn't much visual difference between a blood angel vet and a relatively new assault marine. On the other hand the visual difference between a gray hunter a long fang is pretty staggering, despite both being relative veterans of their chapter. So looking at a picture of "young Grimnar" 800+ years ago is a drastic departure from what he is now, pulling the same stunt with Dante will scare the gently caress out of people that he hasn't change much at all. With chaos the warp had a few factors keeping them around. Time doesn't work the same there so functionally they have much longer life spans than loyalists, along the same lines they aren't going to show age, outside of mutations granted. So functionally as long as they aren't turned into spawn all's good. Next, getting "killed" as a follower of the dark gods doesn't always count. For one getting killed and then spawning to fight the same eternal battle is how things operate. So, dangerous as that poo poo might be to most people, there are a lot of (to give an example world eaters) who spend eternity smashing the poo poo out of each other with infinite lives... and that's laid out to be the case for most major legions or players with daemon planets to call home. It's a non stop infinite orgy of destruction where the best people are playing for score count on infinite lives. As for chaos not having special leadership rules like normal marines... eh that tied into the above. If you're in real space, you aren't in the warp and you don't just jump back in the fight after being torn limb from limb to fight the same eternal war. You're dead for realizes, and rather possibly damned for all eternity for failing. There is no god emperor who is your father there to go home to, who only asked that you fight and die for him, there is a horrific as gently caress evil power that has kept you alive for thousands (in some cases) of years and wants results and you just repaid that by loving up to some bitch as mortal space marine scrub who's barely 200 years old and couldn't rear end gently caress a lowly bloodletter if he had five of us buddies backing him up. So outside of the true nutters (see berserkers) who are simply too far gone to care there is a metric gently caress ton of back stabbing, team killing, leaving your buddies behind, running off with artifacts, and other moral destroying behavior going on. Usually encouraged by the chaos gods for laughs with rewards for the biggest rear end in a top hat of the group and eternal pain for everyone else. So every chaos marine that isn't kharn level insane, is justifiably paranoid and often more worried about their comrades than the morons they are fighting. The 10,000 year old demigod you're fighting on the same team with, to see who becomes a demon prince and who gets eternal torture, is a vastly greater threat than the fools the two of you are curb stomping into the ground. Hence... no fancy leadership stuff.
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Oct 26, 2016 04:04
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Finally finished these little mischief-makers! Hoping for three Acolyte Hybrid/Metamorph boxes for Christmas, as well as a Goliath. With some of my Catachan units mixed in as Neophytes and appropriated IG units, I can make up to 2,000pts of Genestealer Cult before even allying in Tyranids or IG.
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Oct 26, 2016 05:42
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Looking sharp! The bright and fleshy heads do a great job of popping the otherwise commando blacks and dark greens, and it's sure to pop in comparison to the currently popular blue and orange cultists.
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Oct 26, 2016 09:02
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Personally I hate the Thorpian "loyal DAs are really the traitors" thing because it's just such a shallow and juvenile way of looking at them. it's best not to put in more thought than GW did
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Oct 26, 2016 11:09
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Native American DA best DA.
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Oct 26, 2016 12:31
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For me, the big mindbender was discovering Mag Uruk Thraka / Margaret Thatcher. But I'm American, so I didn't catch that one on the first bounce.
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Oct 26, 2016 13:08
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Clawtopsy posted:it's best not to put in more thought than GW did Given the time and place that 40k's earliest fluff was laid down, and the disproportionate number of young men who helped develop it, I think it's exceptionally likely that the Dark Angels were from the beginning a metaphor for being queer and closeted, even if not everyone in the studio made the connection.
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Oct 26, 2016 13:10
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Lungboy posted:Native American DA best DA. Raven Guard are the Native Americans nowadays.
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Oct 26, 2016 14:28
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Snollygoster posted:For me, the big mindbender was discovering Mag Uruk Thraka / Margaret Thatcher. But I'm American, so I didn't catch that one on the first bounce. That one's actually a myth which is weird because this is just a dumb/awesome setting for plastic soldiers but w/e. The dudes generated his name with a random table for Orks. I think that's why we have Snikrot and Grotsnik and then lots of familiar permutations: Dagblagg, Lugnutz, Grimskul, Badrukk, etc.
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Oct 26, 2016 14:50
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Got demolished in a 1250 against ShadowDaishi's Space Wolves on Monday. Mostly because I just finished painting up these morons, so I wanted to run them. I took a Land Raider to get them around, which exploded on turn two and they just lumbered around the table getting shot to death until some Wulfen put them out of their misery (which is exactly what I'd been hoping to avoid). Nice models though.  EDIT: Also (other than the guy up there who never shot anything) every single plasma weapon in my army exploded and killed its user. Plasma weapons own. ANAmal.net fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 14:59
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I understand your pain, I would say about once every couple of months I would think, deathwing knights look so cool, I'm going to bring some! They have been useful once in the 20+ games I have brought them and I always am salty afterwards about how useless they are.
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Oct 26, 2016 16:32
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Within the current rule set, what would it take to make Terminators the absolute monsters they should be? I know drat well they don't perform as they ought to: I never feared running a mob of Boyz into them, because the weight of attacks was usually enough to trounce them, which is bullshit--and that's coming from an Ork player. What if their armor save was D66 and take the highest? That'd make melee an absolute sumbitch against them, but as I understand, AP2 shooting is their main weakness. What does one even propose against all that?
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Oct 26, 2016 16:44
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ANAmal.net posted:Got demolished in a 1250 against ShadowDaishi's Space Wolves on Monday. Mostly because I just finished painting up these morons, so I wanted to run them. I took a Land Raider to get them around, which exploded on turn two and they just lumbered around the table getting shot to death until some Wulfen put them out of their misery (which is exactly what I'd been hoping to avoid). I'm glad you finally got to play with those, and I'm sorry they're garbage. On a related note, I just painted up one for my Defwatch bros. This is Lancel Donovan, a Deathwing Knight who recently became a member of the Deathwatch. Although a fervent fighter and asset to the organization, he's secretly on a mission to investigate whether any of the fallen have infiltrated the Deathwatch ranks, as has been rumored.  
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Oct 26, 2016 16:51
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ANAmal.net posted:Plasma weapons own. First shots I ever took with my 4 plasma Devs  The losers in question (with their friend who in the same game shot one Vindicator to death and beat another one down in melee) 
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Oct 26, 2016 16:54
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Proletariat Beowulf posted:Within the current rule set, what would it take to make Terminators the absolute monsters they should be?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:02
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Proletariat Beowulf posted:Within the current rule set, what would it take to make Terminators the absolute monsters they should be? As a Tyranid player, models with a 1 in 36 chance of failing a save sounds absolutely miserable.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:34
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I think it's more a failing of the ruleset than anything else. That cover is a flat save rather than a to-hit modifier, and that AP either affects you or doesn't, keeps things pretty static in terms of what's good and what's not. 2D6 worked on terminators because it meant lasguns would more often than not bounce off them but meltas would still dissolve them. I feel that modern 40K is about weight of attacks more than it is picking the right tool for the right job.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:47
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If they were 25 points I would likely run Terminators as is. There are a lot of things you could do to make them stronger, make them base toughness 5, make them auto come in from reserves turn 2, make their deep striking safer, give them heavy bolters base. While fluff suggests they should be unkillable murder machines thats not a really fun game mechanic. I would make them 25 points.
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Oct 26, 2016 18:03
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Making Terminators harder to kill would be a huge mistake. One of the worst parts of 40k as is is the fact that it's often just not very likely for anything to happen. Chances to hit are often not great, chances to wound are usually worse and especially with space marines the chance to make the previous two rolls completely irrelevant is usually higher than the chance you actually made both of those rolls. If I were to change something about Terminators it'd be to make them more killy, maybe combine the 2 varieties into a single all-purpose asskicker unit for the same price, so more poo poo happens rather than less. Of course the AP system and save system in general is one big dumpster fire and reworking it and weapon profiles across the game would be the actual correct solution rather than anything pertaining to a single unit.
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Oct 26, 2016 18:06
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Proletariat Beowulf posted:Within the current rule set, what would it take to make Terminators the absolute monsters they should be? AP3 Stormbolters? I4? Immune to shooting attacks without ap1/2? It does always seem silly when termies roll 1's on too many dice and like 3 go down to shooting from a tac squad or termagaunts.
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Oct 26, 2016 18:24
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Being in a different game?
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Oct 26, 2016 18:39
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Nichol posted:2W? Yeah I think making them effectively immune to small arms fire like a dread might be the way to go... but bleh.
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Oct 26, 2016 18:40
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Cribbing notes from the specialist Termi squads in HH would be a good start. 2W, more unique weapons and rules depending on the Legion, flexibility depending on the mark of their armour (though we've kinda, sorta got that with the Kataphractii and inevitable Tartaros rules for 40k). Just something to make them feel more like Veterans than regular Marines in fancy suits, even just a pip more WS/BS would help make them stand out. On a more esoteric note, would any 'hams here have recommendations for hotels/transport in Nottingham? I'm going down to WW start of next month for a job interview and need to book something closeby for an overnight stay.
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Oct 26, 2016 18:54
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Hra Mormo posted:Making Terminators harder to kill would be a huge mistake. One of the worst parts of 40k as is is the fact that it's often just not very likely for anything to happen. Chances to hit are often not great, chances to wound are usually worse and especially with space marines the chance to make the previous two rolls completely irrelevant is usually higher than the chance you actually made both of those rolls. If I were to change something about Terminators it'd be to make them more killy, maybe combine the 2 varieties into a single all-purpose asskicker unit for the same price, so more poo poo happens rather than less. I tend to agree with this, and anyone who's ever played against a Necron Decurion with its 4+ RP rolls is liable to agree. Terminators suffer from a number of problems, most of which stem from their cost being too high: - Vulnerability to high volumes of small arms fire - Small unit size - Slow movement/reliance on Land Raiders or Deep Strike, reducing the number of rounds they can be in close combat - Poor access to heavy weapons (why does Relentless matter if their guns are all Assault X or Template, with the exception of CSM Termies and DA Plasma Cannons) Finally, they're just straight outclassed by other options in every codex they appear in, with the most notable examples being either Bikes, which have 12" movement, T5 and the ability to Jink, plus relentless Combi Bolters and HoW, or Centurions, which are tougher and have access to stronger shooting, or more mobile and harder-hitting. It's a bit radical, but here's how I'd fix terminators: - Reduce the points cost (by about 3ppm) - Allow models with the Relentless special rule to make a disordered charge the turn they arrive via Deep strike. - Allow terminators in every codex to take up to 2 heavy weapons in a 5-man squad
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Oct 26, 2016 19:03
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The biggest problem I have with them is that a TH/SS Terminator isn't that much cheaper than a TH/SS Wulfen, the Wulfen get FNP and 2W, buff everything around them, move faster, swing first, and have more attacks. And nothing about a Terminator keeps a squad of them from getting instagibbed by a Vindicator. I mean poo poo, the last two guys from that command squad - the plasma cannon and the champion - got charged by 5 Wulfen and were buried in 15 rending S6 AP2 claw attacks before they even got to swing. Even if I had the whole squad, and bad rolls aside, 265 points of Terminators would get absolutely mauled by a 230 point unit. Survivability would be great - I like T5 for them (and I want to run DW Knights to try this out), but then Nurgle CSM Terminators are T6, which is maybe a bit rich. There's just too much AP1/2 weaponry out there, and making 5++ saves is murderous when your dudes are 40 points for a single wound. Or they need more attacks or better weapons or something. Base 3A powerfists that swing at I2 or something. A price cut is one option, but then it leads to fluff/crunch disconnects even worse than they have now. I'm honestly not sure what you can do to fix the unit without completely redesigning it from the ground up - 40k as a game system is so different now, and a unit that's had basically the exact same stat line, special rules, and wargear since 3rd edition just can't keep up. EDIT: I would love to see a unit that's a Terminator Devastator squad, 5 guys where everyone but the sarge has a missile launcher or an assault cannon. EDIT2: Terminators just aren't good enough at anything. Plenty of units these days out-shoot or out-punch them, and while I can see the value of a generalist elite unit, the gap between them and the growing tier of specialized units is getting worse, and on top of that, they aren't that survivable anymore, either in absolute terms against 7th edition weapons, or compared to other units. ANAmal.net fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 19:06
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The other part of it is that I feel like Wulfen should feel like glass cannons, but in practice (and with a few Storm Shields), they feel more like highly resilient close combat beasts
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Oct 26, 2016 19:53
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Wulfen set a pretty loving awful bar, though--never try to balance against them. I balanced the first version of my Ork fandex against them using some of their rules, and it got called absurd and rightly so--Wulfen need to be toned the gently caress down, or need an overhaul, because that poo poo is wildly out of proportion with anything else in melee. TH/SS Wulfen aced a Klawstompa in one round, and also wiped an equivalent points in Nobz, with the potential to have killed 2-3x as many points in Nobz though to be fair, Nobz are terrible and GW doesn't know what the gently caress to do with them.
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Oct 26, 2016 19:57
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I'm having fun with Terminators in Deathwatch lists. Deepstriking 5x Assault Cannons is fun and generally hits drat hard. Is it competitive? Not at all. They generally die the next turn. My meta is also casual, so a 2+ armor save is still pretty good.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:10
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Hra Mormo posted:Of course the AP system and save system in general is one big dumpster fire and reworking it and weapon profiles across the game would be the actual correct solution rather than anything pertaining to a single unit. Agreed completely, 3+ rolls to resolve a single ranged attack is way too loving fiddly. Needs to be 2 rolls tops. Armor and Tougness need to be folded together, although how you do that gracefully will require tons of re-design. Also stuff like, lower armor saves are better but higher WS or BS is better... pick one or the other and make it consistent. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:12
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Zaphod42 posted:Agreed completely, 3+ rolls to resolve a single ranged attack is way too loving fiddly. My group has talked about this a number of times, and I'm just not sure it can be accomplished easily or elegantly with only D6s. I don't think the AP system is garbage overall--it's a very simple system designed to simplify the terrible burden of doing individual save modifiers and rolls. But it's set up to create a system where models come off the table quickly, and doesn't really accommodate units that are supposed to be very survivable. I think having more multi-wound units could work, but you'd have to add in something the game already desperately needs, which is weapons that cause multiple wounds without killing models outright.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:18
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