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spotlessd posted:No, the argument is that 1) by insisting others must vote Democrat you forfeit your right to be a moralizing crybaby (because you're agitating for a war criminal) and 2) that by insisting that voting matters at all you forfeit your right to be a smug condescending know-it-all (by virtue of being factually wrong). And let's just throw in 3) neither of these positions even approaches something resembling leftism so let's just go back to calling people who pull this poo poo "liberals" (since that's exactly what they are). Every single point here is demonstrably wrong, soooooooooo....
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Oct 26, 2016 16:13
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WampaLord posted:Obviously while one individual vote matters very little, the act of voting very much matters. Spreading the idea that voting is pointless is pretty lovely. how does this study square with your "voting matters" viewpoint? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy quote:Using data drawn from over 1,800 different policy initiatives from 1981 to 2002, the two conclude that rich, well-connected individuals on the political scene now steer the direction of the country, regardless of or even against the will of the majority of voters. i like to think that we could organize and vote for politicians that will reverse this, but that looks fairly grim for how much votes matter don't you think? Condiv fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 16:20
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WampaLord posted:What war crimes did Hillary Clinton commit? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOFKmk7ytU&t=58s quote:Obviously while one individual vote matters very little, the act of voting very much matters. Spreading the idea that voting is pointless is pretty lovely. Spreading the idea that if you don't vote D the world will end is lovely, factually wrong, rooted fundamentally in contempt for working class politics and slavish devotion to views fashionable among elites, and falsely spreads the idea that a belligerent psychopath's vanity run is somehow inappropriate or ill-suited to the task of managing the American Empire. Who What Now posted:Every single point here is demonstrably wrong, soooooooooo.... Well I suggest you get to demonstrating it you big loving baby. You've contributed like six sentences to this entire discussion and none of them even rises to the level of "thought".
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Oct 26, 2016 16:23
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Well I was trying to argue in good faith with you, but if this is your response to an earnest question, then you have nothing of value to say. "Hillary made every country bad!" - a reasonable opinion. Condiv posted:how does this study square with your "voting matters" viewpoint? Well, first of all, it's one study. Second of all, even if that poo poo is true, voting matters even more, particularly in primaries. Vote for candidates who won't sell out your goals.
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Oct 26, 2016 16:27
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WampaLord posted:Well I was trying to argue in good faith with you, but if this is your response to an earnest question, then you have nothing of value to say. Oh come the gently caress off it this instant lmao. This is your version of "good faith": WampaLord posted:Explain again why your broken brain thinks that voting for Trump is the more moral option? Blow me.
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Oct 26, 2016 16:30
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spotlessd posted:Well I suggest you get to demonstrating it you big loving baby. You've contributed like six sentences to this entire discussion and none of them even rises to the level of "thought". I'll be happy to raise my level of discourse when you post something worthy of it. So chop-chop, get to it.
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Oct 26, 2016 16:32
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spotlessd posted:Oh come the gently caress off it this instant lmao. This is your version of "good faith": I honestly got that idea from your posts. Maybe you should work on communicating your point better, but your point seems to be "pee pee doo doo Hillary is bad."
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Oct 26, 2016 16:32
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Whoops I insulted you, failed to accurately parse even a single sentence in that huge wall of text (that I did not read, tyvm), spent all of 10 words arguing with a point you didn't make and I had the nerve to be wrong anyway. Sorry if you can't handle all this good faith debate and discussion... Edit: Who What Now posted:I'll be happy to raise my level of discourse when you post something worthy of it. So chop-chop, get to it. Okay but just to be sure this definitely isn't just a massive cop out, right?
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Oct 26, 2016 16:34
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WampaLord posted:What war crimes did Hillary Clinton commit?
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Oct 26, 2016 16:36
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WampaLord posted:Well, first of all, it's one study. Second of all, even if that poo poo is true, voting matters even more, particularly in primaries. Vote for candidates who won't sell out your goals. assuming the paper's truth, how would you suggest people do this? corruption is a process, not an immutable state, so you'd need to not only find an non-corrupt candidate, but a candidate who will never be corrupted despite the aforementioned oligarchs almost certainly having a more direct presence in said candidate's life.
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Oct 26, 2016 16:41
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Condiv posted:assuming the paper's truth, how would you suggest people do this? corruption is a process, not a state, so you'd need to not only find an non-corrupt candidate, but an incorruptible candidate. Vote for people who are willing to take the steps necessary to lessen the influence of money in politics. People who are for campaign finance reform, people who are against things like Citizens United, people who are trying to make systemic changes that will result in a more fair system via the fixing of gerrymandering. If only there were a candidate talking about these things, perhaps one who has even proposed going as far as getting a constitutional amendment passed to defeat Citizens United...
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Oct 26, 2016 16:43
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WampaLord posted:Vote for people who are willing to take the steps necessary to lessen the influence of money in politics. People who are for campaign finance reform, people who are against things like Citizens United, people who are trying to make systemic changes that will result in a more fair system via the fixing of gerrymandering. She's a war criminal, see this cartoon for evidence.
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Oct 26, 2016 16:48
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WampaLord posted:Vote for people who are willing to take the steps necessary to lessen the influence of money in politics. People who are for campaign finance reform, people who are against things like Citizens United, people who are trying to make systemic changes that will result in a more fair system via the fixing of gerrymandering. well, problem is that the study in question says that citizens united was not the catalyst for this situation. so while i hate citizens united and hope it gets overturned by a future scotus, fixing that doesn't fix the problem (again, assuming the study is correct in its findings)
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Oct 26, 2016 17:01
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Condiv posted:well, problem is that the study in question says that citizens united was not the catalyst for this situation. so while i hate citizens united and hope it gets overturned by a future scotus, fixing that doesn't fix the problem (again, assuming the study is correct in its findings) Yes, fixing one problem will not magically fix all problems. After we fix that one, we get to work on the next one, and so on. Progress is hard and slow.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:02
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What's with this belief in groups of Killary Kkklinton voters going around and threatening to murder people who don't vote for her? Or does "must" mean something different in Marxoteenland?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:04
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SSNeoman posted:My point is that in the end of the day people realized they were being silly and decided to knock it off and vote rationally. In this case it's for a candidate I liked, but I would say the same thing for people going R. quote:These people are smarter than the people in this thread. quote:They also prove that no, you cannot in fact create a movement using your vote.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:03
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WampaLord posted:Yes, fixing one problem will not magically fix all problems. After we fix that one, we get to work on the next one, and so on. as i posted, according to the study citizens united isn't the problem at all. it covered the period between ~1980-2002, before citizens united even happened. another problem is that progress has not worked like that in over 30 years wrt power of the rich over the political process. are you going to say that there was no public will in the past to make polticians more accountable to the general public?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:18
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Condiv posted:as i posted, according to the study citizens united isn't the problem at all. it covered the period between ~1980-2002, before citizens united even happened. Boomers are poo poo? This is news?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:22
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WampaLord posted:Boomers are poo poo? This is news? i don't think the boomers voted for politicians to ignore them. in fact, they yell more than anyone when they're ignored
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Oct 26, 2016 17:23
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spotlessd posted:Well this is just obvious disingenuous horseshit. Come on now. Maybe we should sticky the list of Democrats who supported the invasion? "Left-wing minorities" mounted one of the largest anti-war campaigns in the history of the world. That we failed to end the war sooner is a testament to how committed your best friends the Democrats are to U.S.-backed terror and the jaw-dropping stupidity of trusting them to do anything else. Incidentally, I was in St. Paul getting tear gassed when your predecessors were telling everyone how important and historic the Obama presidency was going to be, so kindly don't invoke the anti-war movement as proof that voting matters, if you will. this is a good post and it's sad that D&D can't engage with this past pithy one liners
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Oct 26, 2016 17:27
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Holy poo poo we got an unironic Metal Gear speech. This thread owns, owns, owns. Please tell me more about how this world and its people "are diseased", how "we are ruled by something greater than ourselves: memes, the DNA of the soul" and how elections are "a big show to appease the masses"Panzeh posted:Note that shillary does not want glass steagal to return or for Taft-Hartley to be repealed. Glass-Steagal is dead and gone. When it was repealed, it was already shaved down to the point of being useless. We got Dodd-Frank now and Hillary promises to expand it if she can. Take a guess which candidate explicitly said "We have to get rid of Dodd-Frank." Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 17:29
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Condiv posted:i don't think the boomers voted for politicians to ignore them. in fact, they yell more than anyone when they're ignored They didn't care about the country being run into the ground because poo poo was going well for them. Millennials as a group have a large (and well founded) distrust of institutions, expect them to be the agents of change within the next decade or two. NewForumSoftware posted:this is a good post and it's sad that D&D can't engage with this past pithy one liners Please elaborate what makes it good.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:30
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WampaLord posted:Please elaborate what makes it good. quote:And you know, I'd say this is mostly just harmless self-indulgence but look how safely this sort of person is able to move between support for Democrats and support for foreign and domestic terror well within the boundaries of "progressive" thought. Bernie Sanders funnels populist outrage into support for political elites (shock), Black Lives Matter funnels outcry over police brutality into support for state surveillance, lobbyists and think-tanks funnel support for gay rights into support for Isreal. Look how eminently malleable a "movement" built on vibes and key words and listicles becomes. Look how co-optable it is; how utterly compromised. This is just Reaganism for urbane, upwardly-mobile bourgeois parasites. Very true, and very sad.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:32
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The only way you can't throw your vote away this election is if you vote for Lowtax. Anyone who votes otherwise is a traitor. 
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Oct 26, 2016 17:34
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NewForumSoftware posted:Very true, and very sad. So you have no idea about the goals of the Black Lives Matter movement, huh? Because to say that they "funnels outcry over police brutality into support for state surveillance" is total bullshit. Cop body cams are not "state surveillance" and the movement has many other goals they're trying to accomplish as well.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:34
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WampaLord posted:So you have no idea about the goals of the Black Lives Matter movement, huh? Because to say that they "funnels outcry over police brutality into support for state surveillance" is total bullshit. I think you missed the point of the post if you think BLM is the one doing the funneling.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:36
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WampaLord posted:They didn't care about the country being run into the ground because poo poo was going well for them. Millennials as a group have a large (and well founded) distrust of institutions, expect them to be the agents of change within the next decade or two. it's hard to claim they didn't care about the country being run into the ground when the politicians in power cared very little about the opinions of the populace. what if boomers did as you suggested, voted for the politicians they thought would address their concerns, only to be wrong over and over again? what's gonna stop us millennials from making the same mistakes and effecting no change?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:37
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NewForumSoftware posted:I think you missed the point of the post if you think BLM is the one doing the funneling. quote:Bernie Sanders funnels populist outrage into support for political elites (shock), Black Lives Matter funnels outcry over police brutality into support for state surveillance, lobbyists and think-tanks funnel support for gay rights into support for Isreal. Do nouns and verbs work differently in your world?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:38
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NewForumSoftware posted:Very true, and very sad. It's actually not true at all, and in fact it's all unsubstantiated nonsense with not even the barest effort made to back any of it up with facts. The reason that nobody responded to it beyond pithy one-liners is that there isn't anything of substance actually there to respond to in the first place. You or spot can come back with some links like big kids and try again, but until then you get the responses you deserve.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:38
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NewForumSoftware posted:Very true, and very sad. Huh, never seen a straight leftist denigrate gays for not being radical enough before. Blow me, you stupid-rear end breeder gently caress.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:38
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Condiv posted:it's hard to claim they didn't care about the country being run into the ground when the politicians in power cared very little about the opinions of the populace. what if boomers did as you suggested, voted for the politicians they thought would address their concerns, only to be wrong over and over again? what's gonna stop us millennials from making the same mistakes and effecting no change? I dunno man. I can't tell the future. I do know that my generation seems much more concerned about things like money in politics, the effects of gerrymandering, etc. Will this concern pay off with change? Who can say? But I'm hopeful. 
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Oct 26, 2016 17:39
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SSNeoman posted:Holy poo poo we got an unironic Metal Gear speech. This thread owns, owns, owns. Please tell me more about how this world and its people "are diseased", how "we are ruled by something greater than ourselves: memes, the DNA of the soul" and how elections are "a big show to appease the masses" Unfortunately, he is right on most points of substance, and that your reaction to someone making an impassioned statement you disagree with is "it's just like one of my Japanese video games!" kinda plays right into his statement right here. quote:Their politically ideology is psychologically indistinguishable from brand loyalty and its experienced and communicated in precisely the same fashion: bad decisions, good feels. Hillary Clinton goes from loathsome, cynical elite to brave, gifted crusader by the same process that turns $1.50s worth of sugar water into Coca-Cola. Discerning voters prefer Democrats. This is about more than the branding exercises you have confused with an identity, my dude. I disagree with his interpretation- your vote matters very little, but it matters some, at least on a local level, and granted the opportunity to advance your agenda even in such a minute way I find it hard to justify throwing it away for the sake of ennui. But on the facts, he is unfortunately not lying to you.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:41
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WampaLord posted:Do nouns and verbs work differently in your world? Sorry I meant they aren't responsible for the ones changing the direction of the movement. Also, fwiw I believe the "state surveillance" he's talking about is stuff like this: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-baltimore-secret-surveillance/ Brainiac Five posted:Huh, never seen a straight leftist denigrate gays for not being radical enough before. Blow me, you stupid-rear end breeder gently caress. You first? Maybe try not getting so angry at internet posts you belligerent child. Who What Now posted:It's actually not true at all, and in fact it's all unsubstantiated nonsense with not even the barest effort made to back any of it up with facts. The reason that nobody responded to it beyond pithy one-liners is that there isn't anything of substance actually there to respond to in the first place. You or spot can come back with some links like big kids and try again, but until then you get the responses you deserve. Go team blue NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 17:43
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NewForumSoftware posted:Go team blue Can you submit a picture of yourself? I wanna make a hot new meme, I'm thinking it'll be called "Hypocrite Harriette".
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Oct 26, 2016 17:46
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WampaLord posted:I dunno man. I can't tell the future. I do know that my generation seems much more concerned about things like money in politics, the effects of gerrymandering, etc. Will this concern pay off with change? Who can say? i'm hopeful too, but i also worry 
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Oct 26, 2016 17:45
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Who What Now posted:Can you submit a picture of yourself? I wanna make a hot new meme, I'm thinking it'll be called "Hypocrite Harriette". Please don't misgender me.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:47
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NewForumSoftware posted:You first? Maybe try not getting so angry at internet posts you belligerent child. I see you've never had sex, since you think it's possible to suck your own dick without some serious anatomical alterations. Anyways, gays and lesbians and bis don't exist for the purpose of serving straights in hope of getting rewards doled out.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:48
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Brainiac Five posted:I see you've never had sex, since you think it's possible to suck your own dick without some serious anatomical alterations. Anyways, gays and lesbians and bis don't exist for the purpose of serving straights in hope of getting rewards doled out. What makes you so goddamn sure I'm straight exactly you loving rear end in a top hat? What is wrong with you people?
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Oct 26, 2016 17:49
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NewForumSoftware posted:What makes you so goddamn sure I'm straight exactly you loving rear end in a top hat? What is wrong with you people? This post just confirmed it.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:51
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Brainiac Five posted:This post just confirmed it. Since I've already been called a misogynist and "white straight male" in this thread multiple times, already told you I'm not, and now you're going to force me to out myself if I want to "prove" it to the internet? Or post a picture? Truly a progressive bunch we have here. For having the gall to want a discussion of whether it's more moral to vote third party or Democrat in places the Democrats are already going to win I'm the devil incarnate.
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Oct 26, 2016 17:52
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