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Kanfy posted:The voting system in BTS was cool but it was also hilariously broken because of how easy it was to get city-states on your side. Yeah, I generally set up a massive merchant economy and just bought off all the city states right before any vote/election. The way they're handling citystates in vi is so much better
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Oct 26, 2016 19:59
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Efexeye posted:you know by 'AI' i am referring to 'the computer player in Civ 6' and not actual artificial intelligence here's the thing: you are constantly equating "the computer player in civ 6" and "literal loving artificial intelligence" as the same thing. and saying that since the latter doesnt exist, the former being absolutely worthless and stupid is forgivable. This is presumably because you live in a chasm between civ 6 shills and /r/futurism Normal Adult Human fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:00
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this is a pretty good article from a pretty bad site about computer AI (it's explicitly about an FPS but i think a lot of this still applies): https://www.quora.com/Artificial-Intelligence-How-hard-would-it-be-to-create-an-AI-to-successfully-solve-most-FPS-game-campaigns-today also a good discussion by some devs (IANAGD [i am not a game dev]): http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/96311/to-what-extent-are-video-game-bots-npcs-artificial-intelligence and another perspective: https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/making-ai-fun-when-good-enough-is-good-enough--cms-23460 Normal Adult Human posted:here's the thing: you are constantly equating "the computer player in civ 6" and "literal loving artificial intelligence" as the same thing. and saying that since the latter doesnt exist, the former being absolutely worthless and stupid is forgivable. no, i'm not. I already clarified that 'AI' means 'the computer player in civilization' where I've said it here, like, i did that in the post you quoted good burn that you edited in though
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Oct 26, 2016 20:02
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To update with the list of musical sources for the various civ's themes: America is Hard Times Come Again No More, an American parlor song by Stephen Foster (known for songs like Oh! Susanna and Beautiful Dreamer) Arabia is Talama Ashku Gharami, an Arabic qaṣīda...though the melody itself may be more commonly known as Kâtibim or Üsküdar'a Gider İken, a Turkish folk song. Brazil is Brejeiro / Apanhei-te, cavaquinho, a Brazilian tango by Ernesto Júlio de Nazareth. China is Mo Li Hua, a Chinese folk song. Egypt is El Helwa Di, an Egyptian song by Sayed Darwish (also responsible for the melody of Bilady, laki hubbi wa fu'adi - Egypt's national anthem). England is Scarborough Fair, an English ballad probably best known by its Simon and Garfunkel interpretation. France is Le Tourdion (quand je bois du vin clairet), a French song for a dance popular in the 15th and 16th centuries. Germany is Ich hab die Nacht geträumet, a German folk song. Greece is Epitaph of Seikilos, a Hellenistic Ionic song that is the oldest known surviving complete musical composition. India is Vaishnava Jana To, a Hindu bhajan written by Narsinh Mehta; it was a favorite of Gandhi's, who included it in his daily prayers. Japan is Itsuki no Komoriuta, a Japanese folk song. Kongo is Banaha, a Congolese folk song. Norway is Gjendines Bånlåt, a Norwegian folk song collected by Edvard Grieg; he'd heard the melody from a girl named Gjendine Slålien. Rome is Magna Mater, a song published by Synaulia, an international collaborative group dedicated to reconstruction of the music and dance traditions of ancient Rome. Russia is Kalinka, a Russian song written by Ivan Larionov. Spain is Recuerdos de la Alhambra, a Spanish song by Francisco Tárrega. Sumeria is Bonus: Poland is "Czerwieniaska [Poland] (Village in Podhale - 1929)"; seems to be a song from Czerwienne, though I'm not sure on details. But actually, that's just one of their ambient tracks. Sogno di Volare because why not. Hogama fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:03
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Efexeye posted:
okay i guess you're rig Efexeye posted:They will never fix it because 'AI' is impossible as the current state of technology stands. All they can do is write decision trees, yes? Civ never has and never will have 'good' AI.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:04
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I presume the AI will denounce you for joining them in a joint war because the "I don't like warmongers" modifier is stronger than the "we fought a common enemy modifier" If so, and I contend that it is very likely so, then this isn't loving rocket surgery. They just need to tweak the numbers.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:04
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Normal Adult Human posted:okay i guess you're rig yes when you quote things in reverse order surely they do look a bit ridiculous
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Oct 26, 2016 20:06
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it's almost like many, many mechanics existing under the hood are half-finished!
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Oct 26, 2016 20:07
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i cannot wait for the Goon-authored mod that gives us the godly AI Civ 6 experience we all so desperately crave. ill make the website 
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Oct 26, 2016 20:07
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Efexeye posted:i cannot wait for the Goon-authored mod that gives us the godly AI Civ 6 experience we all so desperately crave. ill make the website websites are actually impossible to make because we cannot upload our consciousness into the internet and digitally travel to their location
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Oct 26, 2016 20:07
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Meanwhile I'm glad I can continue to enjoy slews of posts from non experts for the next 10 years defending every lovely implementation of AI as The Way Things Have To Be. 
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Oct 26, 2016 20:08
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Rakthar posted:But yeah dude, the guy that actually works on videogames full time is clearly not qualified to point out that you can in fact set the breakpoint values better, or have gaps between AI response states - the thing is, it can't be done because it's hard. Even tracking which wars they started and which wars they didn't? Nah it's hard. Everything to do with AI is hard, so you may as well just not bother. Hard stuff. Phew. Chill out dude. I'm pointing out what I feel is a contradiction. Namely "I know how to fix the code, it's an if/else statement!" and "I don't know anything about the code, they'd have to pay me to look at it!"
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Oct 26, 2016 20:11
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e:^^^If you know anything about programming in general you it's immediately obvious that these things should not be difficult to fix for someone familiar with the existing code.Normal Adult Human posted:here's the thing: you are constantly equating "the computer player in civ 6" and "literal loving artificial intelligence" as the same thing. and saying that since the latter doesnt exist, the former being absolutely worthless and stupid is forgivable. This is presumably because you live in a chasm between civ 6 shills and /r/futurism just noting that AI!=GAI a loving spam filter is AI this is bothering me way more than it should Anyway yes making a good AI for Civ is obviously hard. Making one that doesn't hate you for declaring a joint war with it against a third civ really shouldn't be. The only reason for that being hard I can think of is if the existing diplo code is absolute unreadable, unmaintainable dogshit. Staltran fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:12
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If your number one metric for game goodness is good AI, you want Civ 4, not Civ 5 or 6. The fact that basically nobody still plays 4 shows that it's not the single-most-important-issue-ever to many people.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:12
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Efexeye posted:'relatively easy' is a relative statement when people are complaining about things that have been standard parts of Civ for 25 years Please stop, you have no idea what you are talking about. Modders fixing something or not has no real relation to how difficult a problem is, what modders can fix or not relates to how moddable a game is (also, V was in no way "fully moddable"). A fix could be changing a single 1 to a 0 and modders will never be able to fix it if it's in an unmoddable part of the game - short of them getting their hands on the source code and distributing their own .exe, which would be something Firaxis' lawyers would get rather interested in. It's true that it's very difficult to make an AI which is good at playing a strategy game, but that is not the same as it being very difficult to make an AI which can run a sub-system in a decent and consistent way. Denouncing warmongers is a simple action and reaction, all that is needed to make it not be stupid is checking if the war someone has just declared was declared by the same person you just asked to declare a war (better yet, check if you even like the civ being attacked while you are at it). All that is needed to avoid the AI complaining and praising you for opposite things from turn to turn is a larger difference in the values checked and/or a cooldown between diplo-chatting. These are not complex systems like trying to fight a war or make smart economic choices. Brendan Rodgers posted:None of this is because of their incompetence or inability to do this, it's because development time goes elsewhere and they know they can skimp on Civ AI, the expectations are just lower than every other 4X or grand strategy game and they'll get away with it. To be fair it could just be lack of polish time, it's hard to say why time wasn't spent, but it is simply a matter of devoting some time to it rather than it being difficult. Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:17
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You can apply a warmonger penalty but we lack the technology to compare two values to see if that warmonger penalty should be applied in the first place. Also I don't think there is a relationship bonus for a joint war at all anymore? I didn't see it, but admittedly a joint war is a mistake I only made once so I don't have in depth knowledge~
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Oct 26, 2016 20:26
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Staltran posted:e:^^^If you know anything about programming in general you it's immediately obvious that these things should not be difficult to fix for someone familiar with the existing code. No. No it's not. I know that sometimes problems, even on a system I've written a large portion of, are exactly easy to fix as I think. Sometimes they are sound easy and end up being a giant pain in the rear end. Sometimes they sound hard and end up being hard. And sometimes they sound hard and end up being a cinch. Not knowing anything about game development or the Civ VI source code I don't know. So I'm not assuming anything. Although I admit I find I'm skeptical that an easy fix would ultimately boil down to "just do a quick if statement." But since I don't know anything it might very well be that easy. But most people talking about this problem are talking in absolutes. One side is "this must be really hard otherwise they would have done it" and the other side is "this is easy why haven't they done it?" So I'm just the guy in the peanut gallery who pointed out one thing in the argument I found humorous. Ice Fist fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:35
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Gort posted:If your number one metric for game goodness is good AI, you want Civ 4, not Civ 5 or 6. or play any paradox game ever because even though the ai is pretty rudimentary you can ~~~immerse~~~ yourself into creating a rationale for why it acted the way it did because it's more or less reasonable.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:39
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Arguments of what an AI is or what the civ AI is aside: 'it's like that because they are lazy' 'it's like that because they are not as smart as me heh' 'it's like that because the development money went elsewhere' 'it's like that because they think people won't notice/don't care' are all statements that presuppose that Firaxis is evil or dumb or exploitative of its user base and all things that people say about every flaw in every game every time. I'm not astroturfing Firaxis or white knighting the game, or at least i'm not trying to. The UI sucks and the 'AI' is still bad, and when I reboot my computer for some reason loading a game takes 10x as long as it did before i rebooted and there's still no reasonable way to play a multiplayer game in one session. I guess I just sort of play the game on Prince and roleplay so I may not be hard core enough to make valid statements about AI. I also haven't played many 4x games outside of Civ except MOO3. I have been playing Civ since 1994, though, and if you look at the launch time threads for civ 6 civ 5, civ 4, civ 3...you could just do a find/replace on the numbers and all the complaints would be the same. But the game still gets a 90 at metacritic and sells 700k plus copies in its first 6 days so all the old complaints just come off as bitching. Eventually (in a week or two) there will be a game breaking slingshot exploit published on Reddit or Civfanatics that lets everyone beat the game on Deity and get the cheevo, at which point people will get bored and go back to Overwatch or take up Battlefield. Then the first patch will come out and a lot of poo poo will be better but even more stuff will break. Repeat for 3 or 4 xpacs. Then Civ 7 will be annnounced. ...and the circle of life continues.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:44
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People seem to define "good AI" as "AI that can beat me without feeling unfair (note: feeling unfair is completely subjective)". This is not something most people want.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:45
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Ice Fist posted:No. No it's not. I know that sometimes problems, even on a system I've written a large portion of, are exactly easy to fix as I think. Sometimes they are sound easy and end up being a giant pain in the rear end. Sometimes they sound hard and end up being easy. And sometimes they sound hard and end up being a cinch. Okay yes it might not be as easy as one might think, but it still should be quite doable. It's so obviously dumb that it's bad pr, Firaxis can have someone take a hour or two to fix it. If it somehow takes longer than that (or even as long as that really) I'd argue the system is badly written. And it's probably an easy fix, the problem is most likely just that no-one thought to check for joint wars when assigning warmonger penalties. e: I'm defining good AI as something that won't make the average player go "wtf why the hell would they ever do that", the AI not knowing how to attack a city well or something like that is understandable, but all the diplo stuff is just obviously broken. An AI that is willing to give you every city it has for 1 gpt if you haggle just right is blatantly bugged, so is one that denounces you for doing what it asked you to do or gets mad that you didn't spread your religion to him the turn you founded it. The AI can derp out once in a while as long as it doesn't do anything completely idiotic. Staltran fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 20:47
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There's actually two discussions going on, the one where 'AI' gives the computer a personality like a human player and the one where 'AI' means 'not doing obviously stupid poo poo like denouncing a player for joint war deccing'. The latter should be possible, though it might be hard to convey in a way that makes sense. If a value in the decision tree changes to something that triggers that personality state switch, how do you say 'show it this time and not some other time' without introducing a whole other logic system? Again, I don't know poo poo about programming. I just imagine tiny fractions of a number somewhere changing and then triggering status effects that don't jive with how a 'person' would act.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:50
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The behavior of enemy civs is a legit topic, so it's too bad it's drowned out by goons' typical passive-aggressive sarcasm.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:54
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It is really weird, to me, that a couple of people who have clarified they have no experience with developing games are insisting to actual strategy game devs that the game can't be fixed, that we can't make any educated guesses about the code, or (the stupidest argument) "why don't you fix it". I'm pretty confident it'll be patched out competently soon, game companies make dumb oversights all the time particularly when the development process is as rushed as Civ 6 seems to be. But, like, Civ 5 started with a bad diplomacy system, people complained, it got better. It's not a big deal. If people didn't complain about exploits and bugs they wouldn't get fixed.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:53
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Efexeye posted:Again, I don't know poo poo about programming. personally i try to not argue all that much about things i realize that i don't know poo poo about
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Oct 26, 2016 20:54
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My argument isn't that I don't think it can be fixed. My argument is that if it's as easy as y'all make it sound, why does it still suck after 25 years and 6 iterations?
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Oct 26, 2016 20:54
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the best 4x AI I've ever played was Gal Civ II, and even that was flawed. The problem is indeed that a programmatic AI will never have the same goony decision making that a human player has.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:56
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The late strategic resource distribution has to be bugged. Game after game, there's like one or two of coal or uranium per loving planet.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:57
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Efexeye posted:My argument isn't that I don't think it can be fixed. My argument is that if it's as easy as y'all make it sound, why does it still suck after 25 years and 6 iterations? As far as I can tell the problem is you've been responding to complaints about specific bugs, exploits, and problems with the AI with sweeping arguments about game design and AI in general that make it sound like you think quashing bugs is impossible.
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Oct 26, 2016 20:59
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Prav posted:personally i try to not argue all that much about things i realize that i don't know poo poo about No one is actually explaining anything, though. They are just arguing from their position of authority as being programmers that this stuff is easy, so I remain ignorant. And yeah, Zohar, you're right, which is what I was trying to clarify a couple of posts up.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:01
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Sure is fun scrolling past seven paragraph posts arguing about stupid poo poo.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:03
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Hogama posted:To update with the list of musical sources for the various civ's themes: What a beautiful post lost in a sea of slap fighting over AI.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:07
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Megazver posted:The late strategic resource distribution has to be bugged. Game after game, there's like one or two of coal or uranium per loving planet. What size planet? I've only finished one game but on a huge map where I'd knocked out two of the smaller leaders I had 4 uranium. So if that bore out it'd mean 1-2+ for each civilization and probably 20+ for the planet.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:06
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Efexeye I really think you're talking about something no-one else is talking about. The complaints about AI have been about very specific obvious bugs, no that it's not good enough at the game in general.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:07
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So... that song with the goat bleeting is pretty great, huh? I really like that song. The opening theme for 'Murica is good times as well. A bold statement, but one that I think holds up.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:10
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I've been legit impressed by the themes of both Saladin and Grogo.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:11
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Okay, then I'll stop  not trying to make people mad, just defending my fave gameWhat's the song with the African chants? I found this YouTube video with the whole soundtrack segmented but I don't think it's a leader theme.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:12
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scrubs season six posted:What size planet? I've only finished one game but on a huge map where I'd knocked out two of the smaller leaders I had 4 uranium. So if that bore out it'd mean 1-2+ for each civilization and probably 20+ for the planet. The default Small it offers. I haven't felt the urge to make the maps any larger.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:21
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I just think that Civ5/6 diplomacy are steps back from 4. If it was done in 4, it should be done in 5/6. Especially dumb poo poo like getting denounced for warmongering after starting a joint war, which is inexcusable. Also why do "mod tools" need to be released? Why aren't scripts, xmls, and other features exposed to the player to begin with?
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Oct 26, 2016 21:25
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Day1 with civ4 I was able to tweak the cost of various buildings, wonders, units, technologies, as well as the tile yields, trade yields and specialist yields. Not to mention the features of the world builder. What is Civ6's excuse?
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Oct 26, 2016 21:28
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