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docbeard posted:Someone called it a rumor so it became a rumor. Naming is just that powerful. Touche 
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Oct 25, 2016 22:09
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Dresden likes calling Nicodemus "Nick" quite a bit - not sure what effect that's had, though, other than annoying him.
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Oct 25, 2016 22:10
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Wizchine posted:Dresden likes calling Nicodemus "Nick" quite a bit - not sure what effect that's had, though, other than annoying him. He pulls off a complete moral 180, becomes a saint, and as a result of a time loop ends up becoming Santa Claus.
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Oct 25, 2016 23:03
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Wheat Loaf posted:He pulls off a complete moral 180, becomes a saint, and as a result of a time loop ends up becoming Santa Claus. That noose that keeps him immortal stops his neck from snapping every time he dives down a chimney. Checks out.
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Oct 25, 2016 23:27
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Wizchine posted:Dresden likes calling Nicodemus "Nick" quite a bit - not sure what effect that's had, though, other than annoying him. Nicodemus is just some dude and is therefore immune to Harry's Name Rater power. He should start calling dude's angel Andy, though, and see where that goes.
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Oct 26, 2016 00:07
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And because I've had nothing to do today but read, knocked out Ghost Story. I know it's not a popular book in this thread, and it's far from one of my favorites, but I appreciate that Butcher was trying to do something different with this book. Change the rules, dial back the action, and go for a much more slowly paced, personal story for Harry. The main plot of the book itself is forgettable, but what's interesting is seeing how the rest of Dresden's allies fared in his absence and getting solid looks at earlier parts of Dresden's life. Something that sticks out to me on this second read: He Who Walks Behind says the world will belong to them again. I'm thinking whatever is coming has to do with that, that we are looking at something like the Outsiders having been cast out of reality a long time ago - perhaps by something like God - and now the hour of their return is coming, something that somebody (coughurielcough) is preparing Harry for.
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Oct 26, 2016 02:20
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In point of fact, He Who Walks Behind talks to Harry about that in Blood Rites, after HWWB kills Madge.
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Oct 26, 2016 04:21
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Zore posted:Yeah, let's not forget summoning Mother Winter. He actually hurt her, and he was mostly guessing some of her names. I thought that was more because mother winter couldn't move without her walking stick and so couldn't answer the summons, which would be painful to a fae I guess, than because of anything specific to Harry
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Oct 26, 2016 05:07
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Cythereal posted:And because I've had nothing to do today but read, knocked out Ghost Story. I know it's not a popular book in this thread, and it's far from one of my favorites, but I appreciate that Butcher was trying to do something different with this book. Change the rules, dial back the action, and go for a much more slowly paced, personal story for Harry. The main plot of the book itself is forgettable, but what's interesting is seeing how the rest of Dresden's allies fared in his absence and getting solid looks at earlier parts of Dresden's life. I didn't mind it that much but it was kinda disappointing that he doesn't really do much different as far as problem solving goes, iirc. He just figures out how to blow stuff up as a ghost.
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Oct 26, 2016 05:43
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Fae have a thing where they're compelled to show up when you speak their name three times. Mother Winter admits Harry guessed some of her names, or chose enough right ones to get her attention. He also used his Soulfire to do the trick, so there's that. Moving to answer his summons hurt her, and hurt her pride. A human forcing a powerful being to answer their call is typically unpleasant for everyone involved. Harry was pretty sure Mab would jump at his offer in Changes, and he was still sweating bullets about compelling her to come. RosaParksOfDip posted:I didn't mind it that much but it was kinda disappointing that he doesn't really do much different as far as problem solving goes, iirc. He just figures out how to blow stuff up as a ghost. Wanna look at Butcher's plot notes for that story. It had a lot of introspection and set up the whole 'memories' thing, laid out a lot of ghost mechanics, then... uh, went somewhere else.
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Oct 26, 2016 06:24
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Cythereal posted:And finished Changes. What to say about it beyond that it's a roller-coaster ride from start to finish? Did notice a few things that I hadn't my first time - continuing the Harry-Merlin parallels, Ebenezar notes that Merlin learned from Odin. And somehow I'd completely missed Mouse talking during the dog part. It seems official now that Mouse isn't just a temple dog but a fully fledged Foo Dog, what with Lea calling him a demon and Ancient Mai in a previous book recognizing him as one. I'd be interested to learn more about Mouse and his fellows, Asian mythology is rare in this series. That bit with Mouse talking does kind of tie into Harry having a capital D Destiny too. He flat out tells Lea that Harry didn't pick him, Mouse beat out his siblings to get to be Harry's companion. Foo dogs must know something most other people don't.
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Oct 26, 2016 06:51
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People asked if we could get a story from Mouses perspective, and Butcher said he would know to much for it to work.
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Oct 26, 2016 07:03
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:... Moving to answer his summons hurt her, and hurt her pride. A human forcing a powerful being to answer their call is typically unpleasant for everyone involved. Harry was pretty sure Mab would jump at his offer in Changes, and he was still sweating bullets about compelling her to come... Amazing how much less concerned he was to do a similar trick in Cold Days. He's getting to know her better, which is good. Despite how ruthless and utilitarian Mab can be, she's not really much of a villain like Harry seems to believe.
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Oct 26, 2016 19:37
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Blasphemeral posted:Amazing how much less concerned he was to do a similar trick in Cold Days. He's getting to know her better, which is good. Despite how ruthless and utilitarian Mab can be, she's not really much of a villain like Harry seems to believe. I'm chewing through Cold Days now, and my read on Mab is that she's intensely pragmatic. She won't kill what she can use, because the responsibilities on her shoulders are too important to risk out of petty pride. She won't abide serious insults to her pride, particularly in front of other people, but I think she's a lot like Harry - she's got a huge amount of responsibility, an enormous amount of power, guards that power and responsibility jealously, and can be abrupt, taciturn, and ruthless as hell when it serves the responsibility she bears. Also, it's a plot point that Mab likes Harry being willing and able to stand up to her. Makes me wonder what the intended responsibility of the Winter Knight really is - I'm thinking the Winter Knight is intended to be an internal policeman for Winter, a check on the faeries who isn't one of them and so can act where they can't, spot things they can't when it comes to fighting Outsiders. I'm thinking the events of Cold Days are precisely the sort of thing that the mantle of Winter Knight was originally created to handle. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 19:43
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The Knights are there to act on behalf of the Courts in ways the Court itself cannot act. It's never stated this is limited to vying with the other Court. It's the role Harry was born to play: he acts as a foil, outside the rules, to do whatever he thinks best for those he is beholden to.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:28
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ConfusedUs posted:The Knights are there to act on behalf of the Courts in ways the Court itself cannot act. It's never stated this is limited to vying with the other Court. He's a loose cannon
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Oct 27, 2016 01:59
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Cythereal posted:Also, it's a plot point that Mab likes Harry being willing and able to stand up to her. One of my favorite scenes in the series is at the end of Cold Days, where Harry confronts Mab. "I am Mab. What's to stop me from putting a bullet through your insolent head?" "Alfred, if she pulls the trigger, drag her underground." She isn't even mad, just... satisfied with her choice of Knight. 
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Oct 27, 2016 02:06
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I think the one near the end of Skin Game is even better. "Finally. A knight who's worth it." or so.
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Oct 27, 2016 03:55
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Mab is really one of best characters in the series. She definitely in my top 3, and might even be number 1.
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Oct 27, 2016 04:54
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Even Mother Winter makes a remark about at last having a worthy knight.
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Oct 27, 2016 09:52
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Calidus posted:Mab is really one of best characters in the series. She definitely in my top 3, and might even be number 1. Mab is a perfect example of how no one is a villain in her own mind. Everything she does is purposeful and aimed toward the greater good.
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Oct 27, 2016 11:14
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navyjack posted:Mab is a perfect example of how no one is a villain in her own mind. Everything she does is purposeful and aimed toward the greater good. Are you saying she actually is a villain? Because I'd say she's actually somewhat heroic, what with guarding all of our reality by being responsible for repelling Outsiders at the Outer Gate. She makes cold-blooded choices based on the pragmatism of "if I don't, everything will be destroyed". She's the one everyone loves to hate, because she makes the hard decisions without hesitation. She's a far more sympathetic character to me when you find out what's weighing on her shoulders.
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Oct 27, 2016 11:58
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flosofl posted:Are you saying she's a villain? I'm saying if she's a villain, then nobody is. Even Nick(odemus), if you drilled right down to it, doesn't see himself as "Capital E" Evil. He has what he considers just and good reasons for what he does. He's not a mustache-twirler. Honestly, I think it's almost a theme with the Dresden Files. Not so much "Good and Evil are where you stand" as " There's a thin line. Blink and you'll miss it."
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Oct 27, 2016 12:04
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Remember how she put the previous winter knight through unimaginable torture for years as punishment for betraying her? That wasn't pragmatism.
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Oct 27, 2016 12:37
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rumble in the bunghole posted:Remember how she put the previous winter knight through unimaginable torture for years as punishment for betraying her? That wasn't pragmatism. I think lording over a bunch of cutthroat fairy people known for their lack of scruples would be a lot harder if an example wasn't made of someone who screwed you over That's just a guess though, seeing as how this is all Urban Fantasy
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Oct 27, 2016 12:52
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rumble in the bunghole posted:Remember how she put the previous winter knight through unimaginable torture for years as punishment for betraying her? That wasn't pragmatism. The Faerie Courts are driven by very different societal values than mortals are, and they're both very power-dominant. If you aren't powerful, you aren't poo poo. Similarly, Mab cannot allow public displays of defiance because that would imply that she doesn't have mastery over her Court, and therefore that other Unseelie could make a play for her job. Consequently, Lloyd Slate gets tortured for years as an example to not gently caress with Mab. You see this with the Leanansidhe, too, in Proven Guilty. The Leanansidhe is powerful enough that she merits different considerations, however, and so is merely imprisoned.
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Oct 27, 2016 13:20
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rumble in the bunghole posted:Remember how she put the previous winter knight through unimaginable torture for years as punishment for betraying her? That wasn't pragmatism. I'd bet dollars to donuts that any Knight who betrayed Summer would end up experiencing a similar fate. It wasn't just that Slate had betrayed her, but the scope of his betrayal. A secret service agent caught taking five dollars from the president's wallet probably wouldn't get life in prison. A secret service agent that tried to assist foreign agents in stealing nuclear launch codes would have a very bad day. Faeries gotta balance dem scales.
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Oct 27, 2016 14:07
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I really like Mab and how Butcher writes all the faeries in general because they never do anything for just one reason. Torturing Slate for years kept the position open for Harry later on and forcing Harry to be the one to kill him I think was supposed to force him to give up some of his humanity/moral righteousness.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:48
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tentacles posted:I think lording over a bunch of cutthroat fairy people known for their lack of scruples would be a lot harder if an example wasn't made of someone who screwed you over But she makes them that way, she does everything she can to increase those qualities in them.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:07
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MeLKoR posted:But she makes them that way, she does everything she can to increase those qualities in them. Because pathological cutthroat logic-based power-mongering is kind of necessary for defending the Outer Gates, since that limits what the Adversary can do should it manage to infiltrate someone.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:23
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Aerdan posted:Because pathological cutthroat logic-based power-mongering is kind of necessary for defending the Outer Gates, since that limits what the Adversary can do should it manage to infiltrate someone. And because sometimes it takes murdering a helpless man in cold blood to defend reality from Outside. Even then, killing Lloyd Slate was pretty clearly an act of mercy. MeLKoR posted:But she makes them that way, she does everything she can to increase those qualities in them. Lea makes a good point about this off and on, as do the Summer faeries when talking about Lea: Winter is fundamentally about survival in a hostile world. I finished Cold Days today, and the Winter Court came into focus for me when I realized their society is based around being on a permanent wartime footing against an enemy like Outside and its agents like Nemesis. Winter is about surviving and winning at any cost, no matter how cruel, treacherous, or brutal they have to be. Something else to bear in mind, Rashid notes that Harry dying and returning has fundamentally altered him. Very few people manage that particular trick. The true purpose of Winter is also why I think the Winter Knight's true purpose is different from how the job and mantle have always been described in the series. I think the mantle of Winter Knight was originally created to play some role in the war with Outside - possibly as Winter's internal policeman, possibly as their black bag man. I think part of why Mab and Mother Winter approve of Harry as Winter Knight so much is that he's the first Winter Knight in a very, very long time to not be overwhelmed by the mantle and do the Knight's original job.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:37
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And considering how closely the Knight and Lady work together, it can't have helped having Maeve in the driver's seat for the Knight's actions for however long it's been. Harry mentions a few previous bearers of the Winter Mantle and none of them were particularly pleasant. Maeve might have been the one picking them BECAUSE of those qualities rather than someone capable of fulfilling their purpose. EDIT: Come to think of it, did Maeve even know what she was supposed to be doing? Mab said she had duties she had ignored, but Maeve didn't really seem to grasp the reason for it. Could be she was too bonkers before the Mantle took over for her to fully appreciate her role in Winter. Vicissitude fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 28, 2016 03:30
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"The strong conquer and the weak are conquered. That is Winter. That is what you have learned." Seems pretty necessary, given their purpose.
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Oct 28, 2016 04:16
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MeLKoR posted:But she makes them that way, she does everything she can to increase those qualities in them. Mab did not create the Winter Court, she's not the first queen of it even. Add in the fact that one of the key things about being mortal vs. fae is the ability to choose and change (which the fae probably lack for a reason given the bad results when Nemesis introduces it into them) and you can't really say Mab "makes" them the way they are. Her job is probably more along the lines of taming all that cruel survive at any cost mentality so it doesn't kill itself off and pointing it at useful tasks. As for Harry and naming magic, there's about a billion clues it's his big talent and WHY he is so dangerous to Outsiders. Not counting all the instances he tags someone or something with a name and changes it somehow, we've got his casual usage of his full name throughout the supposedly "in-universe" books and the bit about "conjure by it at your own risk" all the way back at the end of Storm Front. Most blatant of course is when he breaks the power of the Outsider in Cold Days by first remembering who he is (most obviously when he states his own name in the climactic battle, but even in the bar he shakes it off by focusing on who he sees himself to be) and then demanding it give him its own name. It's thematic as hell (names, true names in particular, have always been associated with magic), and it makes perfect sense that the guy meant to hold off the nameless hordes beyond the edge of reality is the one who can make them no longer nameless. MadDogMike fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 28, 2016 17:10
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MadDogMike posted:Mab did not create the Winter Court, she's not the first queen of it even. She might actually be the first queen, for all intents and purposes. I can't point to the scene(s) but either I completely made this up in my head or at one point it's heavily implied that the Queen/Lady mantles change the bearer over time into what you see there (yes I know this is like how the Winter Knight mantle is implied to work, but I'm not thinking of that). Mab has always been the Queen of Winter; the Mab that Harry knows just wasn't Mab before having the mantle.
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Oct 28, 2016 17:54
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My point was that you can't "excuse" what Mab does "because she has to rule over ruthless creatures" when she does everything she can to make those creatures more ruthless.
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Oct 28, 2016 18:00
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MeLKoR posted:My point was that you can't "excuse" what Mab does "because she has to rule over ruthless creatures" when she does everything she can to make those creatures more ruthless. You don't get mad at a tornado for destroying your house. It's a force of nature, there's no intent there. Mab is basically a force of nature, she does what she does because that's what she is.
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Oct 28, 2016 18:03
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And at the end of the day, that's her job. Victory and survival at any cost. That is what Winter is. Everything else flows from there.Vicissitude posted:And considering how closely the Knight and Lady work together, it can't have helped having Maeve in the driver's seat for the Knight's actions for however long it's been. Harry mentions a few previous bearers of the Winter Mantle and none of them were particularly pleasant. Maeve might have been the one picking them BECAUSE of those qualities rather than someone capable of fulfilling their purpose. Molly mentions in Skin Game that Maeve's been neglecting her duties for centuries, and so Molly's been running all over the place working on Maeve's backlog. There's also no telling how long Maeve was infected by Nemesis, which could be part of it. It's a good thought, though, about the Knight and the Lady. Harry is what Molly and Mab want him to be - stubborn, dangerous, and fundamentally his own man despite the mantle. Even Mother Winter observes that Mab and Molly finally have a Winter Knight worth the trouble.
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Oct 28, 2016 18:06
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Cythereal posted:Molly mentions in Skin Game that Maeve's been neglecting her duties for centuries, and so Molly's been running all over the place working on Maeve's backlog. There's also no telling how long Maeve was infected by Nemesis, which could be part of it. I really hope all the freaky vajazzle poo poo with Maeve was Nemesis being in her. I already have to deal with Molly slowing turning into Maeve, I don't want to think of her becoming some psychotic sex bitch. 
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Oct 28, 2016 18:10
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WarLocke posted:You don't get mad at a tornado for destroying your house. It's a force of nature, there's no intent there. I must be loving up my delivery, I like Mab, as you said she is what she is. I just don't think she's being "forced to be the way she is" by circumstances or that if her people weren't so terrible she'd be somewhat more mellow. She's the way she is because she's Mab. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 28, 2016 18:13
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