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Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Lmao. So his point that the Normans are not French is an extremely silly one. They spoke a lang d'oil and were more or less mutually intelligible with men from the Ile de France. Moreover, they owed fealty to the king of France and had culturally become essentially Frankish (I actually prefer this term to French tbh).

Even if you reject all of this, there were loads of French among William's soldiers and allies (like the mercenary mentioned above). I imagine he'd get similarly sniffy if we called D-Day the American invasion of Europe.

Oh yeah I remembered regarding this whole thing: it's clear that, by the late 1130s at the latest, the Normans were considered French, for Geoffrey Gaimar writes of William Rufus in his Estoire des Engleis

quote:

Par tute France les barons, / Le dutouent cum uns leons. / Treska Peiters ne remist ber / Kil ne feist vers sei cliner.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Oct 23, 2016

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Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Bendigeidfran posted:

To key off the discussion of absolutist monarchies earlier, I had some questions about proto-democratic government institutions. So Folkmoots, Althings, and the like, assemblies where laws and leaders are voted upon by a large proportion of society. What I've read about the subject suggests that they're relics of "tribal" government, from a stage where local leaders hadn't consolidated the resources needed for a powerful aristocracy or monarchy. In that situation it makes sense that ordinary citizens could exercise greater political authority. Then as we move further from Late Antiquity, military pressures from larger societies encourages power to concentrate, and these institutions begins to disappear.

But I'm not sure about these broad conclusions. I even suspect that the historiography on this subject may have been tainted with nationalism/attempts to back-project the modern idea of democracy onto earlier societies. So instead of sifting through everything for bias I'll be lazy and ask y'all:

1) Broadly speaking, how was the idea of "suffrage"/whether-you-get-to-vote-or-not thought of at these meetings?

2) How were these institutions recognized by writers in the time period? Were parallels to, say, Athens and the Roman Republic made?

3) Where did they survive the longest, and is it accurate to say they ever "disappeared" at all?


I'd think that the biggest thing to wrap one's head around is that practically everywhere before the 19th century, rulers were reliant on the people governing themselves beyond anything else. Also, formal rules didn't mean much in many cases, for instance women might not officially be allowed to get involved, but if the woman happens to be someone of note in, say, early medieval Scandinavian society, she might get involved despite not being able to do so in a formal sense. Only a modern society is truly capable of excluding an entire gender from positions of power.

One of the major elements you'd see is courts in many cultures, where you see local peasants run official trials and settle disputes and so on. The whole "jury of one's peers" comes from this in Common Law. In an european context, this is a Germanic cultural thing.

The same kind of thing still exists in Somalia, where clan law and clan courts are more important than the non-existent Mogadishu government. Which leads to fun situations such as getting owned in business deals because you don't have a sponsor from a clan who will represent you if necessary.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Oh yeah I remembered regarding this whole thing: it's clear that, by the late 1130s at the latest, the Normans were considered French, for Geoffrey Gaimar writes of William Rufus in his Estoire des Engleis

Mind translating for those of us who have t used their awful grad school French in years?

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Cyrano4747 posted:

Mind translating for those of us who have t used their awful grad school French in years?
that's early french though, it's easier

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Cyrano4747 posted:

Mind translating for those of us who have t used their awful grad school French in years?

That's 12th century Norman French, so I'm not sure how useful it would be.

Anyway the important part is the first sentence, which is something like "throughout all France the barons feared him as a lion", referring both to his war for the Duchy of Normandy as well as his partial conquest of Maine and wars in the Vexin. The second part refers to his plans to purchase Poitou iirc. Peiters is Poitiers. Sorry but I only kept the Norman French version because I didn't use that passage in my dissertation.

Power Khan
Aug 20, 2011

by Fritz the Horse
Here's some guys shooting a Setzschild with a crossbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Rl9DLUfao

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Cyrano4747 posted:

"Medieval Europe" is also a huge span of time and territory with huge variations as well.

And, of course, lots of mediaeval Jews didn't live in Europe. Being Jewish in the Arab world (to include North Africa and for quite a large chunk of time Spain) was generally speaking nbd.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

JaucheCharly posted:

Here's some guys shooting a Setzschild with a crossbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Rl9DLUfao

cool

Bendigeidfran
Dec 17, 2013

Wait a minute...

JaucheCharly posted:

Here's some guys shooting a Setzschild with a crossbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Rl9DLUfao

Zugkraft: 5325 N - I take it that's the draw-weight of the crossbow/arbalest? Because that is a solid 1,200 pounds of force equivalent, drat. Respect the pavise.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Yes.

I mean I don't know archery words in German so Jauche can yell at me but that's basically "pull strength" so I'm willing to bet it's right.

Broken Mind
Jan 27, 2009

HEY GAL posted:

where and when?

Whoops, sorry. I was mostly thinking of around the Norman conquest around 1066. In and around England and the Isles. I tried to dig through my local library, but I don't even know what I am looking for (though I did find interesting speculations about ancient Ireland).

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
College Slice
Stopped by the Springfield Armory, they had these guys on display:





SimonCat fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Oct 28, 2016

Bendigeidfran
Dec 17, 2013

Wait a minute...

SimonCat posted:

Stopped by the Springfield Armory, they had these guys on display:







Holy High-Resolution Images, Batman! Those are some fine-looking weapons, but could you timg the pictures or something?

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
College Slice
I thought that happened automatically now?

Bendigeidfran
Dec 17, 2013

Wait a minute...

SimonCat posted:

I thought that happened automatically now?

It doesn't, you still need to add the [timg] tags instead of [img].

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

SimonCat posted:

I thought that happened automatically now?

on my desktop firefox it's automatic

but when i use my phone the pics look massive

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

It's automatic when you quote them, but not when you post them.

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
College Slice
Well, they're fixed now.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!
Is that a really short halberd or is the display case just bigger than my brain seems to think it is?

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug
why is the gun's stock so long? for balance?

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Hogge Wild posted:

why is the gun's stock so long? for balance?
If you're standing in a field, what you do is drive the end of that stake into the ground and hold the entire gun+"stock" next to you at about a 45 degree angle. The gun part should be about chest level or a little lower. This is literally a hand-transported cannon, you don't fire it from the shoulder.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

HEY GAL posted:

If you're standing in a field, what you do is drive the end of that stake into the ground and hold the entire gun+"stock" next to you at about a 45 degree angle. The gun part should be about chest level or a little lower. This is literally a hand-transported cannon, you don't fire it from the shoulder.

ah, ok

i was thinking of holding it like a panzerfaust:



any idea of the range?

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

Edit: Never mind.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.
How exactly are the Crusades seen differently by scholars as opposed to popular opinion?

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Hogge Wild posted:

ah, ok

i was thinking of holding it like a panzerfaust:


when i GISsed Hand Cannon I saw a reenactor doing that so now i think it depends on the length of the stick. I was thinking of this though:

quote:

any idea of the range?
no idea but probably somewhere between "poo poo" and "poo poo"

Bendigeidfran
Dec 17, 2013

Wait a minute...

RabidWeasel posted:

Is that a really short halberd or is the display case just bigger than my brain seems to think it is?

It does look that way. I think it might just be a perspective issue (the halberd's further away than the hand-cannon and the shaft is also angled away), combined with halberds not being that long. Like maybe 5-and-half->6ft.

chitoryu12
Apr 24, 2014

Hogge Wild posted:

ah, ok

i was thinking of holding it like a panzerfaust:



any idea of the range?

You could also brace it against a tree. I've seen one hand cannon that even has a vertical spike in the stock to let it be jammed into whatever soft support you've got available.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

chitoryu12 posted:

You could also brace it against a tree. I've seen one hand cannon that even has a vertical spike in the stock to let it be jammed into whatever soft support you've got available.

isn't that called an arquebus?


also, lol:

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000
Throughout history, soldiers have always spent their money on stupid poo poo.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.

Hogge Wild posted:

isn't that called an arquebus?


also, lol:



...

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
sword
gun


swordgun

Kassad
Nov 12, 2005

It's about time.

Hogge Wild posted:

isn't that called an arquebus?

Early forms of the arquebus are similar to those guns. Later forms look like heavier muskets.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous

HEY GAL posted:

sword
gun


swordgun

...

gunsword

...

gun sword

...

GunXSword

...

:stare: The past is anime

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



It doesn't have a trigger????

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007

Xiahou Dun posted:

It doesn't have a trigger????

sssssshuddup

Animal
Apr 8, 2003

Once you score a 5 hit combo with the blade, the gun illuminates and you point it at the enemies, it will fire automatically

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Xiahou Dun posted:

It doesn't have a trigger????

More importantly, it looks like a Luger, but it's missing the entire bolt.

Gotta love that ultra-useless sight.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

SlothfulCobra posted:

More importantly, it looks like a Luger, but it's missing the entire bolt.

Gotta love that ultra-useless sight.

It's a Japanese Nambu:




This is a Luger:




e: when i put nambu katana on google i found this from some blog with the pic:

Japanese Nambu Katana (Only one such gun+katana example exists after it was found by US troops. The book stated that it was probably made for an old-school Japanese Imperial Officer who wanted to combine both the old and new ways of warfare. Problem is the balance for firing the pistol (which I don’t know how it’s operated since I see no trigger) and swinging the sword are all thrown off. Other examples with smaller daggers exist.)


i sent pm to the goon who posted it in yospos

Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Oct 29, 2016

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

The entire bolt is still missing. :v: I'm betting someone just dropped a sword down the grip and called it a day.

poo poo, you can even screw off the entire trigger guard, you don't even need a hacksaw to do this.

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Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose
Given what a lovely piece of work the Nambu was, whoever asked for a Nambu-based katana was probably upgrading in terms of battlefield lethality.

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