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Sard
May 11, 2012

Certified Poster of Culture.

Deified Data posted:

I think he's talking about poo poo like the frozen outskirts and gank squad cave. They're really unpleasant areas to solo.

Frozen Outskirts was a splendid place to invade while disguised as a white phantom, though.

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bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



I'm disappointed that after Bloodborne there's barely any Bloodborne-ish clothing. There's the Silver Mask for all your tricorn needs but that's about it. They could at least have stuck a 'bloody coat' somewhere.

I miss my top hat.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money
I still really hate the grand archives. A pixel off and I fall to my death. Again. Gravity is the worst.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer
I wonder how much of the DS2 hate is just bandwagoning. I've watched several DS2 LPs now where people are having a blast, talking about how much they love certain things and so on.. only to go "DS2 is a poo poo game and doesn't even deserve to be called Souls" later, now that DS3 is out :( I mean, I suppose people were already hating on the game even before it came out ("B-team :byodood:") but even people who genuinely liked it are talking poo poo about it nowadays and pretending like they weren't enjoying it.

Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013

Your Computer posted:

I wonder how much of the DS2 hate is just bandwagoning. I've watched several DS2 LPs now where people are having a blast, talking about how much they love certain things and so on.. only to go "DS2 is a poo poo game and doesn't even deserve to be called Souls" later, now that DS3 is out :( I mean, I suppose people were already hating on the game even before it came out ("B-team :byodood:") but even people who genuinely liked it are talking poo poo about it nowadays and pretending like they weren't enjoying it.

The conspiracy runs deep... Now even the distinguished LPer community has been bought off. Clearly, this is the turnout of a bitter, eternally raging war within the kingdom of From Software. We are powerless before these cruel puppetmasters#

Curse you, A-Team! Curse youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Your Computer posted:

I wonder how much of the DS2 hate is just bandwagoning. I've watched several DS2 LPs now where people are having a blast, talking about how much they love certain things and so on.. only to go "DS2 is a poo poo game and doesn't even deserve to be called Souls" later, now that DS3 is out :( I mean, I suppose people were already hating on the game even before it came out ("B-team :byodood:") but even people who genuinely liked it are talking poo poo about it nowadays and pretending like they weren't enjoying it.

A lot of it was, and still is. A big one too is people complaining that bosses are too similar because you fight pursuer a few times, the ruin sentinels become enemies and the dragon rider comes back as a double boss. "Bosses are too similar, this game sucks!" was a huge complaint for a while ignoring the fact that you fight the asylum demon, stray demon and fire sage demon in Dark Souls and the fire sage and stray demon are almost completely identical while both the capra and taurus demon become enemies in izalith.

People complain about a lot of the bosses being dudes in armor, too. But after Dark Souls most people wouldn't shut up about how O&S, Artorias and Gwyn were the most fun fights. So to me at least, it felt like a direct reaction to that kind of response since no one really missed walking in circles around Seathe and Qualaag and hitting their big fat butts.

frytechnician
Jan 8, 2004

Happy to see me?
Dark Souls 2 is a solid 7 or 8 out of ten game with arguably the best PVP (post mundane havelyn / dagger) in the series. I don't think it's a masterpiece but then again, it was by no means bad.

*Have Mercy!* gesture.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

Nuebot posted:

A lot of it was, and still is. A big one too is people complaining that bosses are too similar because you fight pursuer a few times, the ruin sentinels become enemies and the dragon rider comes back as a double boss. "Bosses are too similar, this game sucks!" was a huge complaint for a while ignoring the fact that you fight the asylum demon, stray demon and fire sage demon in Dark Souls and the fire sage and stray demon are almost completely identical while both the capra and taurus demon become enemies in izalith.

People complain about a lot of the bosses being dudes in armor, too. But after Dark Souls most people wouldn't shut up about how O&S, Artorias and Gwyn were the most fun fights. So to me at least, it felt like a direct reaction to that kind of response since no one really missed walking in circles around Seathe and Qualaag and hitting their big fat butts.

I think the specific beef with DS2 bosses is that a lot of them play out the same way - a big, slow dude with powerful attacks walks around an arena while you dodge attacks and hit them in the butt. Last Giant, Pursuer, Dragonrider, Old Dragonslayer, Flexile Sentry, Ruins Sentinels, Lost Sinner, Smelter Demon, The Rotten, Dragonriders 2, Mirror Knight, Velstadt, Giant Lord, Throne Watcher/Defender, Vendrick, Blue Smelter Demon and Fume Knight (plus a lot of basic enemies, like all the various Knights) are all very similar in how they work. The similarities overshadow the more interesting bosses, both on that list and elsewhere.

andrew smash
Jun 26, 2006

smooth soul
I think it had the best pve co-op too, and the community lasted forever. I was having better luck co-oping scholar in April this year then I had in DS3 in july.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer

Lt. Danger posted:

I think the specific beef with DS2 bosses is that a lot of them play out the same way - a big, slow dude with powerful attacks walks around an arena while you dodge attacks and hit them in the butt. Last Giant, Pursuer, Dragonrider, Old Dragonslayer, Flexile Sentry, Ruins Sentinels, Lost Sinner, Smelter Demon, The Rotten, Dragonriders 2, Mirror Knight, Velstadt, Giant Lord, Throne Watcher/Defender, Vendrick, Blue Smelter Demon and Fume Knight (plus a lot of basic enemies, like all the various Knights) are all very similar in how they work. The similarities overshadow the more interesting bosses, both on that list and elsewhere.

You could easily expand that list to half of DS1's boss fights as well if your definition is that loose though. Probably a good portion of DS3's too. :confused:

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?

Bloodborne only has two types of bosses, small and fast or big and flaily

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer
I'm so tired of the same old bosses.

Dodge their attacks, hit them to deplete HP. Ugghhh :rolleyes:

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Lt. Danger posted:

I think the specific beef with DS2 bosses is that a lot of them play out the same way - a big, slow dude with powerful attacks walks around an arena while you dodge attacks and hit them in the butt. Last Giant, Pursuer, Dragonrider, Old Dragonslayer, Flexile Sentry, Ruins Sentinels, Lost Sinner, Smelter Demon, The Rotten, Dragonriders 2, Mirror Knight, Velstadt, Giant Lord, Throne Watcher/Defender, Vendrick, Blue Smelter Demon and Fume Knight (plus a lot of basic enemies, like all the various Knights) are all very similar in how they work. The similarities overshadow the more interesting bosses, both on that list and elsewhere.

So are all of Dark Souls 1's bosses aside from the capra demon, Ornstein, Sif and Artorias. And that's just because they're fast. Really though, you're saying Old Dragonslayer is just as slow as Last Giant when he's Ornstein, but without the attack stat? The only two bosses on that list that fight similarly to one another are the two smelter demons, because it's kind of a poo poo copy paste job with swapped damage types there, and the last giant and giant lord because thematic reasons, but giant lord is faster and harder than the weak rear end last giant. Because at least they tried to make the bosses feel different. But that's the general problem when people do criticize dark souls 2. It's not that the game doesn't have flaws, it's that people can't seem to stop saying dumb poo poo like every boss is the same when they're not.

fishception
Feb 20, 2011

~carrier has arrived~
Oven Wrangler
Im tired of how jaded the video game community as a whole is nowadays

Doom 2 comes out, literally gives new levels, one new weapon, three new enemies and a few new powerups and not a single soul thought it was poo poo just because it used tons of assets from Doom 1

Gamers nowadays just like whining about things not being exactly perfect or original, and tbh its a sequel, who ever said it had to be perfect or original? The very nature of a sequel leads to, indeed, demands repetition of common themes and mechanics to earlier games in the series

I mean sure maybe DS2 or 3 doesnt do some stuff as good as others, but if you bought the game and played it for at least a week's worth than hours you have no room to complain imo, you got your moneys worth

double nine
Aug 8, 2013

Hey guys, I played this when it first came out, I'm diving back in with the new DLC, this time with a str character so a couple of questions:

- dlc: what level should I be around before starting?
- str weapons: right now I'm using my claymore through the road of sacrifices with a caestus for surprise parries/punching - any particular str weapons to keep an eye out for?
- poise: does it actually do anything now? (probably not but never hurts to ask)
- covenants: are the watchdogs still broken?



tia

Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013

Your Computer posted:

You could easily expand that list to half of DS1's boss fights as well if your definition is that loose though. Probably a good portion of DS3's too. :confused:

A big difference lies in boss mobility. You can see this more often in Bloodborne and DS3, and to an extent the DS2 DLC: bosses and enemies tend to be more mobile, they jump backwards, their attacks make them travel away from you/reposition themselves, and so on. This is obviously more the case in Bloodborne, due to the different dodge mechanics/rally, but DS3 also does it. Several bosses also FORCE you to move differently than just by circle-strafing: there's the launch and flame patterns of the Abyss Watcher, the constant circling and swooping by Nameless King, Sulyvahn's pincer attacks with himself, Vordt's dashes. Of course, this only goes so far - Vordt is still an easily dodged sitting duck defeated by stabbing in the butt, but he's an entry level boss, whatevs. You can also see this behaviour in some of the best DS1 bosses: Gwyn jumps around, Artorias dashes and somersaults around the arena (he even DODGES! One of the few bosses who actually does!), and so on.
Another more recent behaviour change, also getting very noticable with DS2 DLC/Bloodborne/DS3, is more sweeping moves to catch and discourage circle-strafing.

That is not to say the DS2 style "heavy attacks, basic combos, circle-strafe that fucker" is generally bad. It's mixed up decently enough. Fume Knight, for instance, is probably the pinnacle of that boss style, because he's relentless. Smelter Demon mixes it up with the flame aura, forcing you to relocate/heal/retreat amidst the circle-strafing. Throne Watcher/Defender, while otherwise a painfully unremarkable fight, have the pair gimmick, although not nearly as interesting as O&S and Friede&Ariandel. Velstadt is plain fun and his boss theme is great. But it is noticably same-y, and the developers did well to move away from it somewhat. It also bears mention that DS2 probably has the blandest entries of that particular boss template... All parts of the series are guilty of this lazy boss design, but they can't all be winners, after all. In the end, I honestly prefer cool-looking, gimmicky stuff over another Flexile Sentry/Last Giant/Rotten/Lost Sinner/Vendrick.

But none of this matters due to the vast A-Team conspiracy to erase DS2 from history, those fuckers

WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

double nine posted:

Hey guys, I played this when it first came out, I'm diving back in with the new DLC, this time with a str character so a couple of questions:

- dlc: what level should I be around before starting?
- str weapons: right now I'm using my claymore through the road of sacrifices with a caestus for surprise parries/punching - any particular str weapons to keep an eye out for?
- poise: does it actually do anything now? (probably not but never hurts to ask)
- covenants: are the watchdogs still broken?



tia

Poise makes it easier to plow through attacks while you are attacking. It doesn't do poo poo if you just stand still. As far as I know, the patch increased the effect for heavy weapons and armor.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009
-the game recomdends when you reach lothric castle so anything between +7-+10 weapons. level doesent matter
-if you like greatswords then executioners greatsword is a good source of strike damage while keeping the same moveset
-it always worked but now it works even more
-it was never broken just badly designed.

Jordbo
Mar 5, 2013

double nine posted:

Hey guys, I played this when it first came out, I'm diving back in with the new DLC, this time with a str character so a couple of questions:

- dlc: what level should I be around before starting?
- str weapons: right now I'm using my claymore through the road of sacrifices with a caestus for surprise parries/punching - any particular str weapons to keep an eye out for?
- poise: does it actually do anything now? (probably not but never hurts to ask)
- covenants: are the watchdogs still broken?

Around SL 60-80, there's a dev message that recommends you do it after clearing Lothric Castle.

Best strength weapons are probably Yhorm's Great Machete, Warpick, Great Club, and Gundyr's Halberd.

Poise always worked, in a way. Poise, or "hyperarmor", is activated during attacks with heavy weapons. All heavy weapons have poise in all attacks, but as of the latest patch hammers and greatswords have poise when two-handed. Most weapon arts have poise. In general, great hammers have the highest poise multiplier, followed by ultra greatswords and curved greatswords, followed by greatswords and hammers, et cetera. Right now the poise stat breakpoints are super weird. You need 8 poise to tank a straightsword with a greatsword, but 40 poise to tank a greatsword with an ultra greatsword. I hope that changes soon!

To properly utilize poise, you have to time your attacks so you're either hitting your opponent before they hit you, or make sure that your opponent hits you during your poise frames (usually in the middle of the attack animation).

Watchdogs works, as far as i know.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

double nine posted:

Hey guys, I played this when it first came out, I'm diving back in with the new DLC, this time with a str character so a couple of questions:

- dlc: what level should I be around before starting?
- str weapons: right now I'm using my claymore through the road of sacrifices with a caestus for surprise parries/punching - any particular str weapons to keep an eye out for?
- poise: does it actually do anything now? (probably not but never hurts to ask)
- covenants: are the watchdogs still broken?



tia

Start the DLC whenever you feel like it. If you just want the items, rush in and grab them. Try smacking up some dudes, if it's no good then back out and come back later. I haven't played around with the STR stuff from the DLC so I don't have any opinions on them, but if you're looking to mix some faith up in there the Onyx Blade is pretty fun and its buff is pretty spectacular against things that don't specifically resist its damage.

It's hard to say which STR weapons to use specifically since it mostly comes down to preference. Claymore is a greatsword, I'd suggest playing around with any other greatswords you find and see if there's any other movesets you like. You can grab the Hollowslayer Greatsword early on which can do some good damage and gets a pretty big damage buff against a lot of enemies and a fair number of bosses, or the Wolf Knight Greatsword if you liked the Artorias moveset from the first game. Personally, Ultra Greatswords are my favorite STR weapons because even wielding them one handed you will tear through enemies once you get used to their speed. Black Knight Greatsword is, specifically, my favorite UGS and can be easily farmed from the knight in the swamp before the crystal sage.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer

Torquemadras posted:

A big difference lies in boss mobility. You can see this more often in Bloodborne and DS3, and to an extent the DS2 DLC: bosses and enemies tend to be more mobile, they jump backwards, their attacks make them travel away from you/reposition themselves, and so on. This is obviously more the case in Bloodborne, due to the different dodge mechanics/rally, but DS3 also does it.

Yeah, this is one of the areas where it's noticeable that the DS2 team took a different path than the DS3/Bloodborne team. They're both variations on the DeS/DS1 formula and I enjoy both (although DS2 can get a bit too circlestrafe-y and DS3 can get a bit too "dodge 8 attacks in a row"-y)

Torquemadras posted:

I honestly prefer cool-looking, gimmicky stuff over another Flexile Sentry/Last Giant/Rotten/Lost Sinner/Vendrick.

I think they tried to make the Flexile Sentry as a "watcha gonna do now?!" counterpart to the typical circlestrafing strategy, what with it having two fronts instead of a back.. they just did a bad job at it (because let's face it, who doesn't just cheese it to keep attacking with the clubs, making it super easy).

Nuebot posted:

But that's the general problem when people do criticize dark souls 2. It's not that the game doesn't have flaws, it's that people can't seem to stop saying dumb poo poo like every boss is the same when they're not.

Yeah, this is what I'm trying to get at. There are plenty of things to not like with DS2 (it did take a slightly different direction than DS3/Bloodborne) and people are entitled to not enjoying it as much, but some of the criticism is super dumb and can be applied to every game in the series. :sigh:

Sard
May 11, 2012

Certified Poster of Culture.
DS2 was a lot more enjoyable playing through it again (and the DLC for the first time) with SOTFS since I wasn't approaching it with the expectations from DS1, but at the end of the day it still crippled its multiplayer with the lack of reusable orbs and the soul memory system. You sure you guys aren't forgetting that giant steaming turd of a mechanic while you wistfully remember the game with contrarian views to the hate bandwagon?

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Your Computer posted:

I think they tried to make the Flexile Sentry as a "watcha gonna do now?!" counterpart to the typical circlestrafing strategy, what with it having two fronts instead of a back.. they just did a bad job at it (because let's face it, who doesn't just cheese it to keep attacking with the clubs, making it super easy).

I don't think I've ever even come close to being beaten by the Sentry. It's probably the worst boss in the game I think. There are some I like less, but flexile just feels so completely pointless. The ninjas on NG+ are more dangerous than the boss is.


Sard posted:

DS2 was a lot more enjoyable playing through it again (and the DLC for the first time) with SOTFS since I wasn't approaching it with the expectations from DS1, but at the end of the day it still crippled its multiplayer with the lack of reusable orbs and the soul memory system. You sure you guys aren't forgetting that giant steaming turd of a mechanic while you wistfully remember the game with contrarian views to the hate bandwagon?

No, both the orb issue and soul memory were pretty poo poo. As was the inexplicable choice to tie rank ups in the blue and red covenants to the duel arenas only. But I'd still hardly call the PVP crippled since people just wound up using the bell and dragon covenants instead. Or a red soap stone, for their PVP needs.

Ineffiable
Feb 16, 2008

Some say that his politics are terrifying, and that he once punched a horse to the ground...


Sperglord Firecock posted:

Im tired of how jaded the video game community as a whole is nowadays

Doom 2 comes out, literally gives new levels, one new weapon, three new enemies and a few new powerups and not a single soul thought it was poo poo just because it used tons of assets from Doom 1

Gamers nowadays just like whining about things not being exactly perfect or original, and tbh its a sequel, who ever said it had to be perfect or original? The very nature of a sequel leads to, indeed, demands repetition of common themes and mechanics to earlier games in the series

I mean sure maybe DS2 or 3 doesnt do some stuff as good as others, but if you bought the game and played it for at least a week's worth than hours you have no room to complain imo, you got your moneys worth

It's so stupid how the flaws can be so little, yet cause people to rage.

I have seen entire forum topics bitching about how AoA is short at 4 hours. And that's not including if they replay it or spend extra time with PVP.

I hate this, and it makes it almost impossible to find a worthwhile discussion about games.

This place probably has some of the best positivity and discussion about the new DLC.

Jordbo
Mar 5, 2013

Speaking of arenas, it's funny how in DS2 you needed 500 more wins than losses to reach max rank (or 150 for the strongest aura), while in DS3 you need... 35.

Sard
May 11, 2012

Certified Poster of Culture.

Nuebot posted:

But I'd still hardly call the PVP crippled since people just wound up using the bell and dragon covenants instead. Or a red soap stone, for their PVP needs.

It's me, I'm the brainsick idiot who had regular bloodbro arena marathon sessions to stock up dozens of orbs to spend them later terrorizing one or two zones. Running into a lot of hackers in one session could throw me into an honest to god rage at video games.

I mean, it was all worth it—just barely—because invading Shaded Wood/Ruins, the Gutter, the Frozen Outskirts, and especially the Dark Chasm, was sublime stuff. But I could choke whoever decided to make you earn the orbs in duels with people running minmaxed builds and streaming on twitch.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Sard posted:

It's me, I'm the brainsick idiot who had regular bloodbro arena marathon sessions to stock up dozens of orbs to spend them later terrorizing one or two zones. Running into a lot of hackers in one session could throw me into an honest to god rage at video games.

I mean, it was all worth it—just barely—because invading Shaded Wood/Ruins, the Gutter, the Frozen Outskirts, and especially the Dark Chasm, was sublime stuff. But I could choke whoever decided to make you earn the orbs in duels with people running minmaxed builds and streaming on twitch.

The real secret was to just go offline, pop on cheat engine and give yourself 99 orbs. :shrug: It's a problem that shouldn't have existed though. Some of the covenant items in 3 are almost as bad. Across like three characters I think I've gotten maybe three or four wolf covenant invasions? Might as well just cheat in the grass and not sweat the issue.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer

Sard posted:

DS2 was a lot more enjoyable playing through it again (and the DLC for the first time) with SOTFS since I wasn't approaching it with the expectations from DS1, but at the end of the day it still crippled its multiplayer with the lack of reusable orbs and the soul memory system. You sure you guys aren't forgetting that giant steaming turd of a mechanic while you wistfully remember the game with contrarian views to the hate bandwagon?

I think it's pretty disingenuous to call us contrarian because we enjoy the game? I liked DS2 when it came out and I still do, I never changed my opinion to be contrarian to the hate bandwagon.

As for the orbs and SM, like Nuebot said those things were poo poo. It didn't really affect me because I've never liked multiplayer in the Souls games, though. Still, I had a ton of fun PvPing with the dragon covenant in DS2 on the bridge. Much more fun than in DS3 PvP :(

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

Your Computer posted:

You could easily expand that list to half of DS1's boss fights as well if your definition is that loose though. Probably a good portion of DS3's too. :confused:

Nuebot posted:

So are all of Dark Souls 1's bosses aside from the capra demon, Ornstein, Sif and Artorias. And that's just because they're fast. Really though, you're saying Old Dragonslayer is just as slow as Last Giant when he's Ornstein, but without the attack stat? The only two bosses on that list that fight similarly to one another are the two smelter demons, because it's kind of a poo poo copy paste job with swapped damage types there, and the last giant and giant lord because thematic reasons, but giant lord is faster and harder than the weak rear end last giant. Because at least they tried to make the bosses feel different. But that's the general problem when people do criticize dark souls 2. It's not that the game doesn't have flaws, it's that people can't seem to stop saying dumb poo poo like every boss is the same when they're not.

No, there's more variety in DS1 and DS3, in part because they both have fewer bosses. If you cut the DS2 boss list down to a similar size by getting rid of the more same-y fights, you'd also end up with an equally-varied mix - stuff like Undead Chariot or Skeleton Lords or Sinh would all stand out more. Our points of comparison are bosses like the three above, O&S, Bed of Chaos, Old Ivory King, Royal Rat Vanguard, Yhorm, Prince Lothric etc. - not necessarily all great bosses, but certainly very different. Thinking about it, it'd probably also help if the intended first path in DS2 (to Lost Sinner) wasn't frontloaded with these 'Big Knight'-type bosses.

To be clear, it's not that all DS2 bosses are unenjoyable trash, but rather a large chunk of them are redundant: Pursuer is just a better, more interesting fight than Dragonrider.

Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Oct 31, 2016

Catfishenfuego
Oct 21, 2008

Moist With Indignation

Nuebot posted:

A lot of it was, and still is. A big one too is people complaining that bosses are too similar because you fight pursuer a few times, the ruin sentinels become enemies and the dragon rider comes back as a double boss. "Bosses are too similar, this game sucks!" was a huge complaint for a while ignoring the fact that you fight the asylum demon, stray demon and fire sage demon in Dark Souls and the fire sage and stray demon are almost completely identical while both the capra and taurus demon become enemies in izalith.

People complain about a lot of the bosses being dudes in armor, too. But after Dark Souls most people wouldn't shut up about how O&S, Artorias and Gwyn were the most fun fights. So to me at least, it felt like a direct reaction to that kind of response since no one really missed walking in circles around Seathe and Qualaag and hitting their big fat butts.

It's more that a ton of the bosses are a lovely version of either O&S or Artorias and every humanoid boss bar some of the DLC ones is defeated by circling to the right. They did add to the formula with the exciting new variation of 'This should be a regular enemy and is in no way worth a boss fight' like Skeleton Lords, Congregation and Vanguard though.

Believe me, I went in wanting to like the game after all the rose tinted hype in this thread but having beaten it I will never slog through it again.

Also comparing a ton of DS2 to Izalith, the worst area that everyone hates and acknowledges as the worst area in the series isn't a great way to make DS2 look better.

Catfishenfuego
Oct 21, 2008

Moist With Indignation
Sinh, Fume Knight, Ivory King, Alonne (though his boss run is the worst in the series) and to a lesser extent Aava are all good enemies because they finally figured out the reason the peak boss fights DS1 were fun was mobility and a feeling of being kept constantly on your toes, not that they had armour and a big weapon. Nothing in the base game comes close besides very early pursuer fights.

Red Mundus
Oct 22, 2010
Dark souls is at it's best when fighting against armored dudes and knights. I'd rather have a thousand knights than bed of chaos or sif "hug the crotch" fights.

Also armored dude bosses are like the 1 time the camera doesn't completely gently caress up.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Catfishenfuego posted:

Sinh, Fume Knight, Ivory King, Alonne (though his boss run is the worst in the series) and to a lesser extent Aava are all good enemies because they finally figured out the reason the peak boss fights DS1 were fun was mobility and a feeling of being kept constantly on your toes, not that they had armour and a big weapon. Nothing in the base game comes close besides very early pursuer fights.

gently caress the beginning of the Ivory king fight though. It has bugged out for multiple times for me (and isn't very fun even when it works properly).

Red Mundus
Oct 22, 2010
If they don't do something about rolling at high levels there ain't going to be any pvp left. Also good job From putting a ring that extends iframes for rolling into a game where you can roll +10 times in a row before losing all stamina.

I summoned a bunch of invaders and everyone just rolled around for about 20 minutes before I gave up and just did the collapse gesture and let them go to town on me. I'm sure there's a way to counter it (git good, etc.) but after +70 hours into this game neither me nor anyone else I've fought seems to know what it is.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Andrast posted:

gently caress the beginning of the Ivory king fight though. It has bugged out for multiple times for me (and isn't very fun even when it works properly).

Rolling in with a full posse of knights and phantoms to take on the Ivory King's own posse is probably the most fun boss in DS2 for me. How did it bug out for you?

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer

Andrast posted:

gently caress the beginning of the Ivory king fight though. It has bugged out for multiple times for me (and isn't very fun even when it works properly).

Really? I love the beginning of that fight. Falling into the heart of chaos with the last survivors of a knightly order to help end their torment of their liege helps set the mood for that fight. Hell, every dlc section of DS2 has a fight like that. Descending to the bottom of a temple filled with death as this haunting melody echos from the deeps. With the Fume knight it is more that he actually reacts to what you wear, so if you come with Velstadt's helmet he flips out and goes straight to his second stage.

8-Bit Scholar
Jan 23, 2016

by FactsAreUseless

Your Computer posted:

I wonder how much of the DS2 hate is just bandwagoning. I've watched several DS2 LPs now where people are having a blast, talking about how much they love certain things and so on.. only to go "DS2 is a poo poo game and doesn't even deserve to be called Souls" later, now that DS3 is out :( I mean, I suppose people were already hating on the game even before it came out ("B-team :byodood:") but even people who genuinely liked it are talking poo poo about it nowadays and pretending like they weren't enjoying it.

I don't think it's bandwagoning but DS2--and in its own ways, DS3--demonstrated that it's basically not possible to adequately follow-up the original Dark Souls. It was a game for which developing a sequel was always going to be herculean and the result was two games that approached the concept from rather different places.

DS2's issue is its lack of soul, overall. It's rudderless, it has about three or four different scenarios and settings jammed together crudely, and where the original Dark Souls was a deeply interconnected game, both physically in its environments and in its story, which was told by the very walls themselves as you slowly climbed up and under this incredible mountainous landscape. Dark Souls 1 had this sense of building to something truly grand--Dark Souls 2 feels more like piecing together a portrait you've seen before. Souls 2 also suffers from a wealth of little annoyances that add up in a big way: enemies spin on a dime, and the majority of enemies in the game appear to simply be men in armor. There's little in the way of new enemy types and the ones that are there tend t be gimmicky and annoying. In the original version enemies kind of just existed in places to do combat with you, they very rarely felt integrated into the environment or the lore in any meaningful way. The plot was a nothing--the Iron King has no bearing on the main game (until the DLC, I guess), the Undead Hunts don't appear to have been performed by Vendrick, the golems are brought up as a huge mystery but there's no pay-off to that, the ending was an absolute slap in the nuts and the addition of the Queens and the attempt at new additions to the lore ended up being more confusing and muddled than anything else.

The game went through a few directors and had a very troubled dev cycle, so this isn't like a condemnatory post, the game had a rough birth and it shows. It's just that Dark Souls 3, despite being pandering in a lot ways, "feels" more like Dark Souls than DS2 did. It actually builds on he concepts and the events of the original in a way that feels true to the first game's tone and setting. The additions to the lore feel natural.

The true sequel to Dark Souls 1 is Bloodborne, of due note. That's the title that actually pushes the concept into new territory. Dark Souls 2 and 3 are more about treading water, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they can never keep up alongside their predecessor as a result.

Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013

In any case - what's done is done. I hope they expand on the concept of the Souls series in a new way, in a new setting.

Specifically, I'm hoping for the following:
- improved platforming. I'd like more ways of traversing terrain than walking - falling - climbing ladders; just... bring back stepping up small ledges from Demon's Souls. Give us limited ability to scale surfaces. Ropes. Dunno. I'm not expecting anything grand, but something like improved jump controls and climbing small ledges would go a long way, and allow for crazier terrain.
- less humanoid enemies. Those are great, and everyone likes bashing NPCs, but I'd like to see a more varied bestiary. I feel like some of the most fun PvE enemies aren't humanoid at all; they're fun because of unexpected movement + attacks, and sometimes sheer size. More beasties, please. I wanna slaughter demonic wildlife or something. Dropkick a hippo. Evil hippo. Something.
- more outright loving with the player. This was always a staple of the series, but I want more of that. Bosses that aim at breaking your assumptions, rear end in a top hat traps, wanton NPC slaughter if you don't watch out. This was never a concern for me, since the series does this all the time, but I want it to be... y'know... meaner.
- working multiplayHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

You know what, gently caress it, just make a Souls version of La Mulana

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer

I've put several hundred hours into DS2 and love to play it but I agree with most of this. Nice writeup! :3:

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Guillermus
Dec 28, 2009



So I went and made a Heavy Flamberge +10. It owns even if it doesn't have pokes, has good reach, good swing speed, 40 bleed when infused with heavy (41 uninfused) and looks amazing.

So far on this STR character I spent 10 slabs, and have one more. This is my +10/+5 weapon list:

-Spiked Mace
-Stone on a stick
-Morning Star
-Cathedral Knight Greatsword
-Greataxe
-Yhorm's Greataxe
-Butcher's Knife
-Flamberge
-Lucerne
-Gundyr's halberd

I tried to cover different playstyles even if the Greataxe and Yhorm's fill the same niche and the Stone on a Stick outclasses the spiked mace with its amazing weapon art. I want a black knight weapon maxed next, wich one is fancier? BKS, BKGS or BKGS? I'm open for more suggestions aside from these two, I have a lot of fun with the ones I listed so far on a 40str/18dex build.

Again, I highly recommend the flamberge on any build, it's a great weapon and catches a lot of people unaware of the bleed buildup (and shreds bosses weak to bleed too).

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