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Reene posted:How do you feel about Rothfuss' depiction of women, jivjov? Well; he's writing from a male perspective, so there's always going to be a bit of bias there...but overall, I'm pleased that Kingkiller has plenty of female characters in all manners of professions and social standings and the like. Denna's portrayal strikes me as a bit off...but part of that is attributable to the fact that we have not yet seen the end point of that story, and another part is due to us experiencing the story from Kvothe's POV, with all the subjectivity that implies.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The books do not simply discuss class, gender, and sex. They are demonstrably classist and sexist, as I and many others have shown, and nothing makes them rise above that. Previously you avoided the topic, now you simply dismiss it as something "some people" might find upsetting. This contrasts with your espoused progressive ideals, like a gun control advocate gushing about a violent action movie. The truth is that you're a hypocrite and your progressivism is likely nothing but an affectation. Combine this with you being a typical fandom-active, and you become the Platonic ideal of a Rothfuss fan. You help show what makes Kingkilller bad. I'm capable of drawing a distinction between fiction and reality. I can not want to see people shot by guns, but enjoy a fictional movie in which guns are used to commit acts of violence.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:06
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jivjov posted:Well; he's writing from a male perspective, so there's always going to be a bit of bias there...but overall, I'm pleased that Kingkiller has plenty of female characters in all manners of professions and social standings and the like. Denna's portrayal strikes me as a bit off...but part of that is attributable to the fact that we have not yet seen the end point of that story, and another part is due to us experiencing the story from Kvothe's POV, with all the subjectivity that implies. Jesus Christ. Rothfuss isn't writing from a "male" perspective", he has written a sexist text. The books do not question or overcome this sexism: despite the occasional nod to Kvothe's bias, Rothfuss still insists on Kvothe's bias. William Thackeray figured out this in the 19th Century, yet Rothfuss stumbles despite all the weight and richness of literary tradition behind him. jivjov posted:I'm capable of drawing a distinction between fiction and reality. I can not want to see people shot by guns, but enjoy a fictional movie in which guns are used to commit acts of violence. Enjoying violence while advocating pacifism is basic hypocrisy. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 21:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Enjoying violence while advocating pacifism is basic hypocrisy. Good thing reality and fiction are different things then. I can enjoy fictional violence while advocating for real pacifism. (Or even vice versa, if I wanted)
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Nov 1, 2016 21:18
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jivjov posted:Good thing reality and fiction are different things then. I can enjoy fictional violence while advocating for real pacifism. (Or even vice versa, if I wanted) So you're saying that fiction is a space to safely enjoy negative or transgressive impulses (violence, or racism, or homophobia, etc), and any statements they make or reactions they inspire are immaterial. In the case of Kingkiller, you enjoy it because it's classist and sexist, and not in spite of it.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:28
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I want to be on BravestOfTheLamps side, but his insistence that if you're entertained by fake violence you can't be against real violence is almost as dumb as JivJov's stance that anything can be criticized so you can't use criticism as a measure of literary quality.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:32
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Benson Cunningham posted:I want to be on BravestOfTheLamps side, but his insistence that if you're entertained by fake violence you can't be against real violence is almost as dumb as JivJov's stance that anything can be criticized so you can't use criticism as a measure of literary quality. Not that it particularly matters, but my username is rendered in all lowercase. 
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Nov 1, 2016 21:40
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Benson Cunningham posted:I want to be on BravestOfTheLamps side, but his insistence that if you're entertained by fake violence you can't be against real violence is almost as dumb as JivJov's stance that anything can be criticized so you can't use criticism as a measure of literary quality. If someone is against violence being legitimized, glorified, and trivialized, then it seems logical for them to oppose things that do just that, like many action movies. Fiction is a powerful tool of socialization and even propaganda. But it can be just as good to temper such enjoyment with critical thought and understanding. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 21:41
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If someone is against violence being legitimized, glorified, and trivialized, then it seems logical for them to oppose things that do just that, like many action movies. Fiction is a powerful tool of socialization and even propaganda. So...let me just see if I understand you correctly. Anyone who has ever enjoyed an action movie is irrevocably okay with the idea of wholesale slaughter in the streets, because fictional violence is identical to real violence? Do I have your position correct here?
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Nov 1, 2016 21:44
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jivjov posted:Do I have your position correct here? You don't, and never have, because you're quite stupid. I never claimed that "Anyone who has ever enjoyed an action movie is irrevocably okay with the idea of wholesale slaughter in the streets".
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Nov 1, 2016 21:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You don't, and never have, because you're quite stupid. Says the person who claims that anyone who opposes violence can't possibly enjoy an action movie.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:47
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jivjov posted:Says the person who claims that anyone who opposes violence can't possibly enjoy an action movie. Of course they can. It is simply hypocritical to uncritically enjoy violence while opposing violence. I enjoy Lord of the Rings for example, but approach it's bizarre conservatism critically. But there's nothing redeeming in Kingkiller's noxious ideology.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:54
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If someone is against violence being legitimized, glorified, and trivialized, then it seems logical for them to oppose things that do just that, like many action movies. There's a huge difference between what's entertaining vs. what you want in real life. It's entirely normal to be fine with violent movies and video games and against those things in real life. Being fascinated with the darker elements of the human psyche is typical. It's why there's a huge business for it. It's not cognitive dissonance to watch Gone Girl, be very entertained, and still not want to murder or frame for murder your significant others. It's normal to play CS:GO and not shoot people in real life. There is no 1-to-1 relationship between violence in a game or movie, even if it's glorified, and real life.
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Nov 1, 2016 22:09
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This thread is a million times better when ever jivjov shows up. Don't leave again man. We need you here.
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Nov 1, 2016 22:27
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Benson Cunningham posted:There's a huge difference between what's entertaining vs. what you want in real life. It's entirely normal to be fine with violent movies and video games and against those things in real life. Being fascinated with the darker elements of the human psyche is typical. It's why there's a huge business for it. It's not cognitive dissonance to watch Gone Girl, be very entertained, and still not want to murder or frame for murder your significant others. It's normal to play CS:GO and not shoot people in real life. This argument that there is nothing wrong with capitalism safely commercializing transgression rings rather hollow. The true justification for violence in fiction is that it helps reflect human condition. Even the absurdity of action movies can manage that. A halfhearted pacifist approach leads to inconsistency, like singling out American Sniper for partisan attacks for example. But it ultimately doesn't have much to do with Kingkiller. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 22:37
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:But it ultimately doesn't have much to do with Kingkiller. Or, y'know, the content of his post.
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Nov 1, 2016 22:46
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Solice Kirsk posted:This thread is a million times better when ever jivjov shows up. Don't leave again man. We need you here. Happy to be of service. I just get tired of arguing with a guy who's decided that there is One True Way to read a book and anyone who disagrees is stupid or whatever
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Nov 1, 2016 22:49
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jivjov posted:I just get tired of arguing with a guy who's decided that there is One True Way to read a book and anyone who disagrees is stupid or whatever Your insistence that there cannot be a one truth is completely contradictory. If it's impossible to state a "One True Way" to read, then it becomes impossible to deny that a "One True Way" exists. That is to say, disclosing the possibility of objective statements is itself an objective statement. (e: If anyone knows a formal name for this paradox, I'd be happy to hear it) Instead of trying to prove that I'm not telling the truth, you're arguing that truth doesn't exist, which again is a contradiction. You're frustrating yourself needlessly. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 22:57
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jivjov posted:Happy to be of service. I just get tired of arguing with a guy who's decided that there is One True Way to read a book and anyone who disagrees is stupid or whatever You have read this series twelve times and you have no thoughts on it beyond "Yup those sure were some words on those pages"
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Nov 1, 2016 22:59
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're frustrating yourself needlessly. Literally all I want from you is for you to admit that your interpretation of Kingkiller is not the One True Way To Read Kingkiller. You have your opinion, and I disagree with it. That's fine. I honestly really enjoy reading dissenting opinions on stuff I enjoy. My problem is your self-righteous attitude about the whole thing. You don't act like you have an opinion, you act like you have objective fact. You frustrate me. I am not currently frustrating myself.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:09
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Malpais Legate posted:That's really the problem with the frame story here. It relies on the subversion of the fairy tale version of the story that the audience knows, but the reader doesn't. So we get boring waffling about and playing with his dick (on too many a literal occasion) without any frame of reference as to how this corresponds to the fairy tale. He doesn't even commit to that, he takes the time to explain things in-universe that the audience should be familiar with, so we just get info dumps of poo poo that doesn't matter because he's trying to WORLDBUILD. It's because the function of lines like that aren't to subvert anything or achieve any real narrative or thematic goal. They're there to flatter lazy readers, which I think is probably the real secret to Rothfuss's success
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Nov 1, 2016 23:11
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jivjov posted:Literally all I want from you is for you to admit that your interpretation of Kingkiller is not the One True Way To Read Kingkiller. You have your opinion, and I disagree with it. That's fine. I honestly really enjoy reading dissenting opinions on stuff I enjoy. My problem is your self-righteous attitude about the whole thing. You don't act like you have an opinion, you act like you have objective fact. You frustrate me. I am not currently frustrating myself. Actually the burden of proof is on you.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:14
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jivjov posted:I'm pleased that Kingkiller has plenty of female characters in all manners of professions and social standings and the like. Kingkiller's diverse array of female characters: Mother Love interest Sex fairy Sex ninja Rape victim Moon fae dream pixie girl Damsel in distress who is sad she is a damsel in distress Six-year-old child Someone else's love interest Heroin-addicted stripper Businesswoman who is only occasionally a prostitute Progressive!
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Nov 1, 2016 23:16
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Kingkiller's diverse array of female characters: Hey now, you forgot characters like: - Student who is sexually harassed - Student who briefly admires Kvothe's body, which is admittedly pretty low on the totem pole of juvenile sexism, but might as well throw it in while we're getting steamed
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Nov 1, 2016 23:17
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Hey now, you forgot: No I remembered her, she's the damsel in distress who is sad she's a damsel in distress. This does show that she's a multifaceted character though.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:19
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jivjov posted:Happy to be of service. I just get tired of arguing with a guy who's decided that there is One True Way to read a book and anyone who disagrees is stupid or whatever For the rest of us who are dissatisfied, we have specific grievances. Such as: 1. The series was presented as fantasy literature and has not lived up to expectations as a literary piece of work. 2. The ethical/moral questions posed by the book are either oversimplified or weren't interesting to begin with. 3. The core conceit of the novel, that Kvothe is an unreliable narrator, does not seem like it can pay off at this point in any meaningful way. This is due to the structure and content of the two books, as well as noticeable dissimilarities in attitude, ability, and method in the latter. 4. The author has demonstrated through the main character a number of habits and perceptions that we associate colloquially with neckbeards. These include but are not limited to: Kvothes involvement with women, Kvothe's understanding of sex, Kvothe's wish fulfillment, the entire Kvothe and Denna relationship, Kvothe's unnecessary white knighting, and so on. 5. The author, in trying to appear an expert on topics like music and religion, has left doubt in the reader's mind that he himself knows what he's talking about. This then discredits their value in the story as well. We don't feel like you have provided evidence that these are not fair grievances, or that in spite of these issues, there is enough to consider these books noteworthy. If you cut 900 pages from these two books, got rid of Felurian and all the ninja sex, pulled back on line by line description of music, really focused in on the Chandrian, the Hate Tree, Bast, and the relationship between Kvothe and those major players, you could distill one really interesting novel from this bloviated mess. ChickenWing posted:Or, y'know, the content of his post. Thanks for saying what I was thinking buddy. Edit: Finally, I think Rothfuss himself has grown older and wiser, and recognizes a number of his own flaws. This more than anything, and this is just a guess, is what's causing the delay in the third book. I don't think he sees a way to chisel out the story he wants to tell from the one he actually did. Benson Cunningham fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 23:20
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Lottery of Babylon posted:No I remembered her, she's the damsel in distress who is sad she's a damsel in distress. This does show that she's a multifaceted character though. No no no, the student who is sexually harassed by Snape during her single solitary scene. Benson Cunningham posted:Thanks for saying what I was thinking buddy. Trying to normalize capitalistic production of transgressive fiction is weird.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:20
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:No no no, the student who is sexually harassed by Snape during her single solitary appearance. Oops, you're right, I mistook which student who exists to be sexually harassed you were referring to. In my defense, there's so many it's hard to keep track. There's also "sexy woman who tricks hero into being poisoned with her feminine wiles" and "crone who reassures hero that it's okay to murder women for being alone in the woods with rapists" and "geiger counter for virgins"
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Nov 1, 2016 23:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Trying to normalize capitalistic production of transgressive fiction is weird. You're right. Because violence in film, tv, books, and other media is so transgressive. No one does it, and when people do, my how agape the mouth becomes. When Beowulf dropped, I bet all the literary critics of the era were aghast. Edit: Do you think Beowulf's popularity is why violence even exists today?! Why or why not in 5 sentences, go. Benson Cunningham fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 23:25
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Benson Cunningham posted:Edit: Finally, I think Rothfuss himself has grown older and wiser, and recognizes a number of his own flaws. This more than anything, and this is just a guess, is what's causing the delay in the third book. I don't think he sees a way to chisel out the story he wants to tell from the one he actually did. The Slow Regard of Silent Things was published in 2015.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:26
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Lottery of Babylon posted:The Slow Regard of Silent Things was published in 2015. gently caress. I have no comeback for that. Now I'm sad because I really liked my last response. Benson Cunningham fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 23:27
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Benson Cunningham posted:You're right. Because violence in film, tv, books, and other media is so transgressive. No one does it, and when people do, my how agape the mouth becomes. This is a bizarre ideological tangent. Yes, violence is always transgressive, and you're implying that questioning any normalization of it is pearl-clutching. And you picked as an example Beowulf, a story were communal conflict is marginalized so that the hero channels his aggression onto strange outsiders, as an example of "tame" fiction. Lol.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:31
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a bizarre ideological tangent. Yes, violence is always transgressive, and you're implying that questioning any normalization of it is pearl-clutching. Your avatar is literally from a webcomic called Kill Six Billion Demons.
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Nov 1, 2016 23:38
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Is book 3 out yet
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Nov 1, 2016 23:41
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Levitate posted:Is book 3 out yet Yes. Benson Cunningham posted:Your avatar is literally from a webcomic called Kill Six Billion Demons. I'm not really a pacifist, so I don't oppose violence on principle. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 23:44
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Well this latest chapter was a debate on pregnancy and Kvothe was out argued because ninjas don't get pregnant? What the gently caress? There's just so many levels of absurdity here. Is this Rothfuss brand feminism?
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Nov 2, 2016 00:19
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Malpais Legate posted:Well this latest chapter was a debate on pregnancy and Kvothe was out argued because ninjas don't get pregnant? Pretty much.
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Nov 2, 2016 00:37
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As someone who used to think like this during his dumb teen years, people like Rothfuss, through Kvothe, believe women should be protected from the world. That men should be the shield against hardships. The dutiful husband who brings home the bacon, so to speak. I think that sort of condescending poo poo rings true with a lot of fantasy readers (especially dumb teenagers who grew up consuming media that enforced gender roles like I did), especially if they're conservative. On the flip side, there are people who canonize women, thinking they're these pure snowflakes of righteousness who can do no wrong and are angels come down from the land of fairies into the ugly world of men, bringing with them love and sunshine. What people like Rothfuss like to ignore or fail to understand is that women are people and make the same choices as men, who are also people (loving crazy, I know!). Instead of making them out as others rather than treating them like you would anyone else. It's why women in his work fall under one of those two categories (or both). So when you get to a part of the book where you have women who don't fall under that category and may end up being varied and rounded like the men in his novels, he decides to use them as guilt-free sex objects who don't believe in pregnancy.
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Nov 2, 2016 00:39
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The sex ninjas get pregnant though. They just don't know that sex is what causes it. They think it's just something that happens sometimes. And Kvothe loses the argument because he doesn't think "not all sex leads to conception" is a good argument.
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Nov 2, 2016 01:16
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Benson Cunningham posted:Edit: Finally, I think Rothfuss himself has grown older and wiser, and recognizes a number of his own flaws. This more than anything, and this is just a guess, is what's causing the delay in the third book. I don't think he sees a way to chisel out the story he wants to tell from the one he actually did. If Rothfuss stopped firing people for correcting his bad grammar he would have a writer's group to brainstorm options with.
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Nov 2, 2016 01:58
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