CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

I found this article to be an excellent insight into the generally incomprehensible Liberal mind.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/hillary-clinton-emails-neil-macdonald-1.3829436

quote:

To paraphrase Nixon, when Clinton hides emails, it is not illegal: Neil Macdonald

Charging high-level public officials would have consequences that are just too serious
...

The reason for all this impunity is simple: once people rise past a certain level, the consequences to the nation, and even the world, of charging them with a crime grossly outweigh any banalities about rule of law.

It's the same in any democracy. When, in 1996, then prime minister Jean Chr�tien lost his temper and grabbed a protester by the throat, he faced none of the costly consequences that would befall an ordinary mortal who chooses to answer speech with physical violence.

In fact, the RCMP officers flanking Chr�tien reacted by jumping on the protester, rather than his manhandler. The media obediently fell into line, treating it as a national joke, talking about Chretien administering a "Shawinigan handshake."

...

Generally, such matters can be kept out of sight without any unseemly public fuss. That's the reason for the executive privilege.

In fact, as Mukasey pointed out in his op-ed, the FBI found several emails written under a pseudonym to then-secretary Clinton by Obama himself.

Those emails have been suppressed by the White House, on the legally bulletproof grounds of executive privilege. (With good reason, says Mukasey: "If Mrs. Clinton was at criminal risk for communicating on her nonsecure system, so was he.")

Police should be powerless

Once executive privilege or national security is claimed, police and prosecutors are powerless, which is as it should be.

Because, as Mr. Spock would argue, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or, conversely, the welfare of the many outweighs the guilt of the few.

Charge a head of state or torpedo a presidential candidate's campaign and democracy totters, with all the attendant results. Markets can take damage, foreign governments immediately take advantage, institutions falter.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 18:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 13, 2024 23:28

Fried Watermelon: Dec 29, 2008

If Chretien chokes you, you are legally allowed to kill one person (other than Chretien).

Strange law but it's true

# ? Nov 2, 2016 18:53

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

So in a change of topic, here's the results of a recent survey EKOS ran on Democratic Reform in Canada, as presented to the electoral reform committee: http://www.ekospolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/presentation_by_frank_graves_october_20_2016.pdf

Interesting takeaways:

"The clear lean is to go ahead with some form of proportional representation... This will leave certain groups unhappy, but there will be greater unhappiness in the (much larger) rest of Canada if there are no changes". This one is interesting, because it suggests there's strong regionalism involved, but that isn't included in the presentation.
If there was somehow an election on electoral systems, using a FPTP system, PR would sweep.
Preferential Vote a popular second choice for most people.
For some reason, support for FPTP goes way up when they used "detailed" rather than "brief" explanations of the different systems. I took the survey, but have forgotten the difference. Less clear support for PR, but it's still the most preferred option.
When asked what to do to improve democracy in Canada, respondents overwhelmingly preferred "Regular government consultation with Canadian citizens that is informed, reflected, and representative". God only knows what that actually means, maybe "I think government should do want I want it to do?" Or the extremely Canadian "I don't want government to work better, I want government to look better so I can be smug about it". PR the clear second choice.
PR generally quite popular, lord only knows what Maryam Monsef has been talking about at these consultations.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 19:03

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

PittTheElder posted:

So in a change of topic, here's the results of a recent survey EKOS ran on Democratic Reform in Canada, as presented to the electoral reform committee: http://www.ekospolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/presentation_by_frank_graves_october_20_2016.pdf

Interesting takeaways:

When asked what to do to improve democracy in Canada, respondents overwhelmingly preferred "Regular government consultation with Canadian citizens that is informed, reflected, and representative". God only knows what that actually means, maybe "I think government should do want I want it to do?" Or the extremely Canadian "I don't want government to work better, I want government to look better so I can be smug about it". PR the clear second choice.

Maybe I havnt had all my faith in Canadians smashed on the rocks below like the rest of you, but to me that sounds more like "We want the government to stop hiding all their processes and reasoning behind closed doors so that Canadians can stop being the lowest information voters on the loving planet". :v:

# ? Nov 2, 2016 19:08

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

I mean that'd be nice, but politics always happens in backroom deals, and for good reason. "Canadian citizens should be more informed" is not anything you can hope to achieve through electoral reform.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 19:47

Albino Squirrel: Apr 25, 2003; Miosis more like meiosis

cowofwar posted:

In BC in the late 90s we had carreers (CAPP) but not civics, that would have been an elective in grade 12 and covered slightly in social studies before that.

Alberta has a similar system, except CALM instead of CAPP, and if I recall correctly basically no civics at any point during social studies. This probably explains a lot about Alberta.

The only thing I remember of CALM is that the career test told me I should be a sewage engineer.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 20:12

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Albino Squirrel posted:

The only thing I remember of CALM is that the career test told me I should be a sewage engineer.

I don't think posting in this thread is what they had in mind.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 20:19

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Albino Squirrel posted:

Alberta has a similar system, except CALM instead of CAPP, and if I recall correctly basically no civics at any point during social studies. This probably explains a lot about Alberta.

Something must have changed because we definitely did mock elections and that sort of thing in social studies in junior high and high school.

CALM was a waste of loving time though, especially considering I already knew what I wanted to be, and I'd already investigated what I'd have to do to get there (and, after a 9 year hiatus, I've decided that I was actually right at the time).

# ? Nov 2, 2016 20:47

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

There was an altercation at an Abbotsford BC high school the other day, in which two people were stabbed. One of them subsequently died of her injuries. Later that day, Global TV aired a video of the incident. They showed a video of a child being murdered while screaming for her life. Real classy, Global.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:18

Landsknecht: Oct 27, 2009; I hope this person is trolling, nobody can be so unfunny and dumb

PittTheElder posted:

So in a change of topic, here's the results of a recent survey EKOS ran on Democratic Reform in Canada, as presented to the electoral reform committee: http://www.ekospolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/presentation_by_frank_graves_october_20_2016.pdf

Interesting takeaways:

"The clear lean is to go ahead with some form of proportional representation... This will leave certain groups unhappy, but there will be greater unhappiness in the (much larger) rest of Canada if there are no changes". This one is interesting, because it suggests there's strong regionalism involved, but that isn't included in the presentation.

If there was somehow an election on electoral systems, using a FPTP system, PR would sweep.

Preferential Vote a popular second choice for most people.

For some reason, support for FPTP goes way up when they used "detailed" rather than "brief" explanations of the different systems. I took the survey, but have forgotten the difference. Less clear support for PR, but it's still the most preferred option.

When asked what to do to improve democracy in Canada, respondents overwhelmingly preferred "Regular government consultation with Canadian citizens that is informed, reflected, and representative". God only knows what that actually means, maybe "I think government should do want I want it to do?" Or the extremely Canadian "I don't want government to work better, I want government to look better so I can be smug about it". PR the clear second choice.

PR generally quite popular, lord only knows what Maryam Monsef has been talking about at these consultations.

PR would be a massive change for this country, and there's no way I could see the powers that be allowing it

You'd very soon have urban and rural parties, and there'd be a lot of issues with ensuring rural representation

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:25

Lain Iwakura: Aug 5, 2004; The body exists only to verify one's own existence.; Taco Defender

THC posted:

There was an altercation at an Abbotsford BC high school the other day, in which two people were stabbed. One of them subsequently died of her injuries. Later that day, Global TV aired a video of the incident. They showed a video of a child being murdered while screaming for her life. Real classy, Global.

http://globalnews.ca/video/3040002/cell-phone-video-shows-stabbing-at-abbotsford-senior-school

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:26

Hexigrammus: May 22, 2006; Cheech Wizard stories are clean, wholesome, reflective truths that go great with the marijuana munchies and a blow job.

The Butcher posted:

Civics in HS is a good idea.

I didn't have anything like that and didn't really learn poo poo about our government structure and processes until I took a poli sci 101 at uni. Was pretty eye opening.

The reason I took the course in the first place was because I was a starry eyed idealist and was kicking around the idea of going into politics as a career. Actually change the world for the better and all that poo poo.

Couple weeks into the course that dream was dead.

Universities: killing young dreams since 600 A.D.

I envy you guys with the career and life skills courses. My parents had to go bankrupt when I was in high school for me to learn about compound interest and paying your bills.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:30

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

Compound interest is a big part of the grade 11 pre-C and pre-U math course curricula in Ontario, you have to learn about it to get a diploma.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:36

Lobok: Jul 13, 2006; Say Watt?

The only "Careers" stuff I remember in high school was the in-class portion of my co-op semester, which was one of the best things I ever did in high school, second only to Grade 9 Keyboarding.

Civics I think is only worth it if the class/school can demonstrate the actual voting or lawmaking processes. Hold a mock FPTP election, divide the class into parties in a Westminster system and pass "laws" that the students would actually be interested in. If you don't show how it really works then just reading about it will go in one ear and out the other.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:37

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Landsknecht posted:

PR would be a massive change for this country, and there's no way I could see the powers that be allowing it

You'd very soon have urban and rural parties, and there'd be a lot of issues with ensuring rural representation

Oh you can already see the reluctance in statements by the Liberals the last few weeks. It's just amusing that they're willing to lie so obviously about it.

Even with PR though, I see no reason why we'd suddenly see urban and rural parties, seeing as that hasn't already happened. The cities already provide a pretty big majority of the ridings I would assume, since they're where 80% of Canadians live. Unless the cities have all been terribly gerrymandered like Saskatchewan used to be of course, but I don't think that's the case.

e: Unless you just mean that PR would promote splintering amongst the big tent parties, which might see the emergence of rural and urban wings of the existing parties. Which is fair I guess, but I'd question how different the real outcome would be, even if it did look very different on a map. Under FPTP, in a majority government you're just moving decisions about policy to the governing caucus, where urban representatives will still vastly outnumber the rural representatives.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Nov 2, 2016

# ? Nov 2, 2016 21:51

Landsknecht: Oct 27, 2009; I hope this person is trolling, nobody can be so unfunny and dumb

PittTheElder posted:

Oh you can already see the reluctance in statements by the Liberals the last few weeks. It's just amusing that they're willing to lie so obviously about it.

Even with PR though, I see no reason why we'd suddenly see urban and rural parties, seeing as that hasn't already happened. The cities already provide a pretty big majority of the ridings I would assume, since they're where 80% of Canadians live. Unless the cities have all been terribly gerrymandered like Saskatchewan used to be of course, but I don't think that's the case.

e: Unless you just mean that PR would promote splintering amongst the big tent parties, which might see the emergence of rural and urban wings of the existing parties. Which is fair I guess, but I'd question how different the real outcome would be, even if it did look very different on a map. Under FPTP, in a majority government you're just moving decisions about policy to the governing caucus, where urban representatives will still vastly outnumber the rural representatives.

You might not see the parties splitting quickly, but if we saw 1 vote=1 vote logic the cities would heavily dominate rural areas, especially in provincial politics

regional parties, and urban/rural parties make a lot of sense; although it could fracture the country a lot

# ? Nov 2, 2016 22:19

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

BC Court of Appeals rules that Trinity Western must be accredited

quote:

The Appeal Court decision found that denying approval to Trinity Western would not enhance access to law school for members of the LGBTQ community and therefore wouldn�t help the law society meet its public-interest objectives.

It found that creating 60 new law school seats, which brings the Canadian total to about 2,500, would divert some law school hopefuls from programs elsewhere and, as a result, increase the number of seats available to LGBTQ applicants.

I'm sure we can all come together to see that this is good news.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 22:26

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Patrick Spens posted:

BC Court of Appeals rules that Trinity Western must be accredited

I'm sure we can all come together to see that this is good news.

What the poo poo.

By that logic a restaurant that only allows white people is fine because it would divert some eating hopefuls from restaurants elsewhere and, as a result, increase the number of seats available to non-white diners.

Trapick fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Nov 2, 2016

# ? Nov 2, 2016 22:36

Moist von Lipwig: Oct 28, 2006; by FactsAreUseless; Tortured By Flan

Mameluke posted:

Turn Civics and Careers into full-credit courses, throw out grade 12 English.

If you haven't gotten it by now after living in Ontario your whole life you can burn an elective on it. Everyone else can take shop (if you live in a school board that can still afford it) or computers or a secord history credit, which is functionally the same as English but includes critical thinking and trivia.

Oh yeah high school history in Ontario is just module after module about how AWESOME AND PROGRESSIVE Canada is. 12 weeks of Sikh RCMP officers wearing turbans and the Komagata Maru and not a single mention of the war of 1812, Confederation, the world wars, Korea...

# ? Nov 2, 2016 22:39

Moist von Lipwig: Oct 28, 2006; by FactsAreUseless; Tortured By Flan

Postess with the Mostest posted:

I found this article to be an excellent insight into the generally incomprehensible Liberal mind.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/hillary-clinton-emails-neil-macdonald-1.3829436

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 22:44

Landsknecht: Oct 27, 2009; I hope this person is trolling, nobody can be so unfunny and dumb

GENDERED SLUR posted:

Oh yeah high school history in Ontario is just module after module about how AWESOME AND PROGRESSIVE Canada is. 12 weeks of Sikh RCMP officers wearing turbans and the Komagata Maru and not a single mention of the war of 1812, Confederation, the world wars, Korea...

if CISGENDERED WHITE MEN were involved was it really history?

# ? Nov 2, 2016 22:48

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

It's going to be hard to design an effective civics curriculum when most students feel justifiably cynical about the government, it's responsiveness to their concerns, and it's capability to actually improve their lives. It's sort of like all the pearl clutching over decreasing voter turnout, often coming from the same media organizations that shill relentlessly for every trade deal that cedes a bit more of our sovereignty to distant and unaccountable trans-national organizations.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:16

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

Trapick posted:

What the poo poo.

By that logic a restaurant that only allows white people is fine because it would divert some eating hopefuls from restaurants elsewhere and, as a result, increase the number of seats available to non-white diners.

That wasn't actually what the (correct) decision hinged upon. I just included it because I thought it was a funny line.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:20

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Helsing posted:

It's going to be hard to design an effective civics curriculum when most students feel justifiably cynical about the government, it's responsiveness to their concerns, and it's capability to actually improve their lives. It's sort of like all the pearl clutching over decreasing voter turnout, often coming from the same media organizations that shill relentlessly for every trade deal that cedes a bit more of our sovereignty to distant and unaccountable trans-national organizations.

Yeah, I'm sure kids in grade 8 are cynical about trade deals and trans-national organizations. :rolleyes:

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:22

peter banana: Sep 2, 2008; Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Mameluke posted:

Turn Civics and Careers into full-credit courses, throw out grade 12 English.

If you haven't gotten it by now after living in Ontario your whole life you can burn an elective on it. Everyone else can take shop (if you live in a school board that can still afford it) or computers or a secord history credit, which is functionally the same as English but includes critical thinking and trivia.

As someone with a Masters in Literature, agreed. There was an elective Academic level Lit course for 12th grade that was actually worth a drat, but everyone would have benefitted from not doing Grade 12 English and doing something more useful instead.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:23

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Patrick Spens posted:

BC Court of Appeals rules that Trinity Western must be accredited

I'm sure we can all come together to see that this is good news.

It's okay to have a place that discriminates against those people because they can just go somewhere else :rolleye:

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:28

Moist von Lipwig: Oct 28, 2006; by FactsAreUseless; Tortured By Flan

PT6A posted:

Yeah, I'm sure kids in grade 8 are cynical about trade deals and trans-national organizations.

I'm pretty sure I was.

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:29

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

I'm pretty sure I was reading 2600 back in grade 11, so yeah I was pretty cynical about globalization and corporate control of government through the lens of no-gently caress-you-dad 90s cyberpunk

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:38

Ambrose Burnside: Aug 30, 2007; pensive

InfiniteZero posted:

Everybody always got bus driver, religious leader, or teacher on those tests.

To this day I cannot decide if the test was entirely useless or cunningly accurate.

i got funeral director and then taxidermist and i dont even think there was a "how do you feel about spelunking in a carcass" question

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:42

Ambrose Burnside: Aug 30, 2007; pensive

it really is a goddamn shame that shop was stigmatized as the worst-of-the-worst burnout quarantine class and regarded as such by everyone including teachers, i'd make at least one shop or home ec credit mandatory to graduate

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:45

Landsknecht: Oct 27, 2009; I hope this person is trolling, nobody can be so unfunny and dumb

Ambrose Burnside posted:

it really is a goddamn shame that shop was stigmatized as the worst-of-the-worst burnout quarantine class and regarded as such by everyone including teachers, i'd make at least one shop or home ec credit mandatory to graduate

well if you aren't going to university (to get a humanities or liberal arts degree lmao) you're a failure who will be homeless and never find love

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:50

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Patrick Spens posted:

That wasn't actually what the (correct) decision hinged upon. I just included it because I thought it was a funny line.

Serious question then: if a religious group decided to open a law school and banned its students from having sexual relations with members of a different race, could they be denied accreditation? Or would they too be welcome to operate and train lawyers?

# ? Nov 2, 2016 23:54

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Ambrose Burnside posted:

it really is a goddamn shame that shop was stigmatized as the worst-of-the-worst burnout quarantine class and regarded as such by everyone including teachers, i'd make at least one shop or home ec credit mandatory to graduate

Yeah, it's also a shame that home ec is seen as a girly class. Cooking is very awesome, and it should be taught by someone who's actually worked in a professional kitchen and knows what the gently caress they're doing with actual technique instead of recipes.

I hope that old bastard of a chef that taught me how to cook is still doing his thing, striking the fear of god into all his students and then teaching them how to actually cook, instead of how to follow a list of instructions :unsmith:

Much better than my home ec teacher, who was nice but made cooking seem like a horrible chore.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:09

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

Ambrose Burnside posted:

it really is a goddamn shame that shop was stigmatized as the worst-of-the-worst burnout quarantine class and regarded as such by everyone including teachers, i'd make at least one shop or home ec credit mandatory to graduate

Heaven forbid our children learn how to make/build/cook/fix things with their hands and tools!

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:11

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

GENDERED SLUR posted:

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

It's not sarcastic at all but I'm curious why you think it might be.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:11

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Ambrose Burnside posted:

it really is a goddamn shame that shop was stigmatized as the worst-of-the-worst burnout quarantine class and regarded as such by everyone including teachers, i'd make at least one shop or home ec credit mandatory to graduate

True story, home ec cooking days were the tops.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:22

Hexigrammus: May 22, 2006; Cheech Wizard stories are clean, wholesome, reflective truths that go great with the marijuana munchies and a blow job.

Trapick posted:

Serious question then: if a religious group decided to open a law school and banned its students from having sexual relations with members of a different race, could they be denied accreditation? Or would they too be welcome to operate and train lawyers?

Funny you should mention this - someone from the B.C. Law Society was discussing the case and pointed out that both the B.C. and Ontario Appeals Court decisions referenced the Bob Jones University decision down in the States where Bob Jones got their tax exempt status pulled for trying to ban interracial dating and marriage.

Interesting that Trinity won in B.C. but Ontario told them to get sodomized. Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to the SCC we go...

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:25

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

Trapick posted:

Serious question then: if a religious group decided to open a law school and banned its students from having sexual relations with members of a different race, could they be denied accreditation? Or would they too be welcome to operate and train lawyers?

Maybe? Its hard to make a comparison, because I don't know of any religion that can actually claim that racism is an integral part of their religious belief/practice in the way that Trinity Western can claim that being anti-gay is. Trinity couldn't make a no miscegenation policy, but if an Orthodox Jewish school forbade it's students from dating non-Jews that would probably be allowed?

Religious schools are given broad latitude to set their own rules. Even in ways that would be illegally discriminatory in other settings.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:28

Ambrose Burnside: Aug 30, 2007; pensive

i was always going to go to uni "because thats what smart people do" and my dad was in the trades and didn't want a son with obliterated knees and back by 40 (which is more fair) so despite always being good with my hands and always loving making poo poo i got that big beautiful Generic Humanities Degree and uhhh would you look at that now i'm going to school to become a cnc programmer/machinist

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 13, 2024 23:28

RBC: Nov 23, 2007; IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

I feel like the subtle context of ostracizing the trinity western lawschool by the legal profession is more about protecting the "prestige" of the profession and keeping a private religious school out of it than any noble defence of same-sex rights

# ? Nov 3, 2016 00:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

«‹›2341 »