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My sociology of religion professor who was doing research on atheism in America last time I was in his class described it as people are less likely to profess a single religious ideology, but that doesn't mean they're atheists or otherwise non religious. And this was the same guy who said atheists identify as not having a religion and that must be respected, so it's not necessarily like he has a dog in that race.
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Nov 1, 2016 20:51
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Just speculating on this, I was thinking it may have more to do with the effect of technological development on Western society than anything else. With the advent of things like affordable air travel, television, and more recently, the internet, it is becoming increasing easy to be isolated from one another. Maybe the diminishing role of community brought on by that has led to a reduction in religiosity as well (or at least, a decrease in more traditional forms of it). Or maybe I'm overthinking it. Edit: I'm dumb. It wouldn't be the technology, but rather substituting it for community. I think. Maybe. cerror fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 20:56
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cerror posted:Just speculating on this, I was thinking it may have more to do with the effect of technological development on Western society than anything else. With the advent of things like affordable air travel, television, and more recently, the internet, it is becoming increasing easy to be isolated from one another. Maybe the diminishing role of community brought on by that has led to a reduction in religiosity as well (or at least, a decrease in more traditional forms of it). Or maybe I'm overthinking it. Possible. History also seems to show religiosity is cyclic in societies. That church attendance is decreasing now does not necessarily mean it's going to continue decreasing to zero. It will likely start heading back up again at some point. If the Church is truly an institution of God, it's not going anywhere.
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Nov 1, 2016 21:05
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America becomes religious in cycles, we just finished an awakening, we'll have a minute until a new one occurs
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Nov 1, 2016 21:48
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System Metternich posted:Gray claims that the teleological rationalism of the New Atheism movement is now confronted with a resurgence of religion and religiously-motivated politics throughout the world. Looking at the Western world, this obviously rings false; What? That doesn't ring false at all. I can't speak for Europe or Latin America but US politics is intensely driven by religious concerns (and competing secular ones.) Keep in mind also that it might have more to do with visibility than actual demographics. The religious right as a voting bloc might be disintegrating, but that just makes them louder.
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Nov 1, 2016 22:01
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/nyregion/muslims-parents-donald-trump-staten-island.html
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Nov 1, 2016 22:07
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Well, I'm officially moving into a new city at the end of the week to start my new job. Time to start church shopping once again.
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Nov 1, 2016 22:31
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HEY GAL posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/nyregion/muslims-parents-donald-trump-staten-island.html  Tuxedo Catfish posted:What? That doesn't ring false at all. I can't speak for Europe or Latin America but US politics is intensely driven by religious concerns (and competing secular ones.) When we're talking about visibility, then sure. I was more thinking about membership and affiliation statistics, and there the share of Christians in the US population dropped from 78.4% in 2007 to 70.6% in 2014. As far as I know this rather sharp decline can be found in most other "Western" countries. cerror posted:Just speculating on this, I was thinking it may have more to do with the effect of technological development on Western society than anything else. With the advent of things like affordable air travel, television, and more recently, the internet, it is becoming increasing easy to be isolated from one another. Maybe the diminishing role of community brought on by that has led to a reduction in religiosity as well (or at least, a decrease in more traditional forms of it). Or maybe I'm overthinking it. That definitely is a factor, though as you said it's more that the communal aspect of religion is no longer needed or especially attractive in an age where I can chat with other people via social media literally all the time and everywhere, and where the need for belonging to a (clearly defined) social group gets more and more lost in an increasingly individualised society (just look at all other possible forms of community, like political parties, associations, volunteer fire brigades and even sport clubs* which all experience a serious decline in membership, at least in Germany). I always have to think of my grandma who told me that the advent of television in her village sometime in the 60s was utterly disruptive to the local community - "suddenly, nobody was outside anymore". Combine that with an increased mobility that slowly erodes traditional communities and you can clearly see how the local and communal aspect of religion ceases to draw people in all that much anymore. My question was more on whether the religiosity/religious faith, however defined, of your average Westerner really is declining, or if it's just showing in new forms and venues outside of traditional organised religion. I'm still not sure either way, though the cyclical nature of religiosity (both traditional and new) and my belief in God caring for His people give me hope that I'm in fact *not* sitting on a sinking ship (though even if it was sinking, it's a very cool&good ship and the water outside looks really cold, so I'd rather stay aboard anyway  )* though I have to add that at least concerning football/soccer in Germany, this is only half true: many clubs have so many children applicants that they can't possibly accept them all, but this goes mostly in the cities whereas the clubs in rural areas slowly die out. No idea how other sports fare in that regard. In this case this is probably more a symptom of Landflucht, i.e. the demographic shift from rural to urban settings. Cythereal posted:Well, I'm officially moving into a new city at the end of the week to start my new job. Time to start church shopping once again. All the best! 
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Nov 1, 2016 22:34
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Arsenic Lupin posted:You don't have to pity him. That's asking a lot more than is expected to you. You have to acknowledge that God loves him, and that God loves him just as God loves you, and to (attempt to) love him as another flawed human. Tias posted:As I've said so often when these things come up, spiritually we humans are imperfect beings. Striving towards following the command is all we are ever capable of, but if we choose to strive, we attain spiritual growth. Spiritual perfection is for saints and angels, but we shall become found by searching for it. Lutha Mahtin posted:The Golden Rule is not a fire-and-brimstone edict that requires you to, always and at all times, have in your heart the love emotion toward all humans on the planet. It is more a teaching that everyone is human, and that you should open your mind and heart toward the Earthly reality that is outside yourself. Man Whore posted:Has he even sought repentance or forgiveness? Samuel Clemens posted:I suppose this discussion is as good a time as any to mention that Calvary is a great film and that you should watch it if you haven't already. All very good points. Particularly the last. Keromaru5 posted:Mr Enderby, I know how you feel. I have a former friend who joined ISIS. Crikey.
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Nov 2, 2016 00:34
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System Metternich posted:My question was more on whether the religiosity/religious faith, however defined, of your average Westerner really is declining, or if it's just showing in new forms and venues outside of traditional organised religion. Both. I feel that increasing skepticism and the ability for people to form communities outside the traditional institutional pillars (education, church, etc.) has led to people who would be considered "nominal Christians" to simply stop attending church. These are the people who wouldn't be particularly steadfast in their beliefs, but attended church as a way to connect with the community around them. It still continues (church attendance is a pretty good method of virtue signaling) but it's nowhere near as prominent as it was in the early 20th century. Younger people who *do* stay in church are usually pretty into it compared to the older generation, who often seem like that they are simply going through the motions. Not that I am doubting their faith, of course. For example, the majority of my RCIA class are former evangelical Christians (mostly Baptist or non-denominational) who just all of a sudden decided to become really really Catholic. I was honestly rather surprised, since I assumed most of them would be converting because of their families or their spouses, but there are a lot of people who just simply want to convert for their own personal reasons because they love the Catholic faith. In addition, most of the heavy lifting in my parish (catechesis, evangelization, organizing social events) is done by people under the age of 40. France might be a good example of where I think western nations will end up; the population of Catholics that attend Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation are young and very traditional. You wind up with a smaller church-going population overall but those who do attend are much more serious about their faith. Since there's no reason to attend church simply to connect to the community around you (there are a multitude of other methods now), those who do self-select into regular church attendance among the younger generation tend to be incredibly into it. I think that's probably where religiosity in the western world is headed as a whole, with people for whom religion is not an important part of their lives choosing to describe themselves as "spiritual, but not religious." This, of course, could all change if people get tired of Facebook and want to come back to participating in worship or spirituality as a face-to-face community. When we do have another religious revival in the west, I imagine that will be the reason for it.
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Nov 2, 2016 02:16
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don't wanna change the topic, please carry on, but i feel the need to gush because i just sat through the most fabulous seminar with David Halperin, of all people (a pretty major figure in gay studies) that started with gay bathhouses and Aristotle's Prior Analytics and ended with positing an inescapably trinitarian (though obviously i'd say Trinitarian) character to erotic desire, and in the course of it we also spent twenty minutes arguing about the implications of an articular infinitive as a verbal object. it was like all my nerdy interests converged at once and we're doing it again in two weeks
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Nov 2, 2016 03:50
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System Metternich posted:All the best! Thank you.  Everything's set up and scheduled for the move, so if all goes well I'll be starting work at my new job on Monday. Besides the general anxiety and stress about the move and starting a new job (oh please God don't let me screw up, mainly), it will be time to hopefully find a church I'm happy with. Google maps has turned up a bunch of various denominations, so it looks like I won't be spoiled for choice. Maybe one of them will even have people my own age.
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Nov 2, 2016 04:26
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Brennanite posted:Anyone here going to the AAR meeting this year? American Academy of Religion? God I wish. That was the time in the Religion department when most of the professors would be gone and we didn't have class. 
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Nov 2, 2016 05:49
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My Sunday reading was also about tree climbing tax collectors! I wonder if they have a callendar of readings. The church actually had a kids choir who sang the Lord's prayer; girlfiend thought it was cool and kinda medieval sounding, so I liked it a lot.
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Nov 2, 2016 11:35
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Paladinus posted:And not to lose face, I had to give half of my possessions to the poor, Jeremiah! Half of my possessions! Elaine thinks her boyfriend might be gay, because she got distracted by a stoning as he was telling her about his Essene vow of celibacy. Kramer gets lost in the desert, surviving on honey and locusts. When he gets back to civilisation, his sunstruck mutterings are confused for messianic prophecy, and he faces persecution from the Sanhedrin. Newman is scamming the Sadducees by painting horses to look like cows, for use as korban. Jerry does some observational comedy about flatbreads.
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Nov 2, 2016 12:10
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JcDent posted:My Sunday reading was also about tree climbing tax collectors! I wonder if they have a callendar of readings. Yeah the Catholic calendar has a three year cycle for the readings
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Nov 2, 2016 12:41
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HEY GAL posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/nyregion/muslims-parents-donald-trump-staten-island.html (Seven-year-old) Maaria said that if Mr. Trump became president, “I’m going to stay in my room forever.” 
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Nov 2, 2016 12:51
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Lutha Mahtin posted:(Seven-year-old) Maaria said that if Mr. Trump became president, “I’m going to stay in my room forever.” wait you don't already
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Nov 2, 2016 13:09
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Visiting the cemetery yesterday got me wondering: around here, virtually every grave will have a small cavity or, uh, "vessel" full of water as part of it. It's mostly not holy water, as far as I'm aware, but just rainwater that's been gathering in there. It's traditional to sprinkle the graves with the water from it (normally three times), mostly with the fingers, though some of the receptacles will have a tiny aspergil too. Often people will make the sign of the cross with it too (though my grandma gently scolded me once for doing so because it was no holy water after all). Personally I suspect that the origin of this tradition was to ritually ease the pain of the souls trapped in purgatory (based on similar rituals in Germany that very likely had this as their origin), but I might well be mistaken. I know that at least in Vienna this is unheard of, but I'm not sure about the more rural regions of Austria. Do you guys know of that tradition as well? Here you can see the receptacle at the grave of former German chancellor Ludwig Erhard (the heart-shaped thing)  And one of those "boxes" at my grandma's grave
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Nov 2, 2016 14:32
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System Metternich posted:Visiting the cemetery yesterday got me wondering: around here, virtually every grave will have a small cavity or, uh, "vessel" full of water as part of it. It's mostly not holy water, as far as I'm aware, but just rainwater that's been gathering in there. It's traditional to sprinkle the graves with the water from it (normally three times), mostly with the fingers, though some of the receptacles will have a tiny aspergil too. Often people will make the sign of the cross with it too (though my grandma gently scolded me once for doing so because it was no holy water after all). Personally I suspect that the origin of this tradition was to ritually ease the pain of the souls trapped in purgatory (based on similar rituals in Germany that very likely had this as their origin), but I might well be mistaken. I know that at least in Vienna this is unheard of, but I'm not sure about the more rural regions of Austria. Do you guys know of that tradition as well? I've seen it in Minnesota, but this area is very heavily German. Everyone go visit a cemetery today and pray for the holy souls. If you have no one to pray for, pray for the most forgotten, or the gooniest.
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Nov 2, 2016 15:24
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We should build a giant, well stocked room deep underground and stay there until the next election. Speaking of which, what the gently caress was with Teump's joke about Hillary pretend not to hate Catholics?
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Nov 2, 2016 17:01
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The Phlegmatist posted:This, of course, could all change if people get tired of Facebook and want to come back to participating in worship or spirituality as a face-to-face community. When we do have another religious revival in the west, I imagine that will be the reason for it. When I was growing up in the '60s and '70s (before child kidnapping became a national worry), milkboxes had "Take your family to church" printed on the side of the box, with a sketch of a churchbound family, and that wasn't in an evangelical area.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:23
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JcDent posted:We should build a giant, well stocked room deep underground and stay there until the next election. podesta emails contained an exchange that was somewhat insulting to conservative Catholics, a charge which would bear more weight if trump's campaign manager hadn't claimed the bishops were only for immigration to boost their parish attendance and complained about being sick and tired of 'social justice Catholicism' shoved in his face by.... Paul Ryan
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Nov 2, 2016 17:53
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Anyone seen " the young pope"? I have really enjoyed the first two episodes. But i wonder what a catholic migth take from it? Is it offensive to you, funny?
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Nov 2, 2016 20:07
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Arsenic Lupin posted:The decline in American church attendance started a long time before Facebook, and a long time before the recent church (multiple churches) scandals. At some point there came a tipping point between Sunday (or whatever) service being what everybody, even lukewarm believers, did; and going to church being a thing that only passionate believers did. There's no community pressure to be a churchgoer in the greater U.S.-- although there certainly is in the Bible Belt, at least in my experience of it. It's not just "people don't want to show membership in a community", it's "the greater community doesn't consider church attendance to be a normal and expected part of life". Are we going to be the only Christians in America
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Nov 2, 2016 20:13
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I'm in the deep south and want to show explicit dismembership from the community
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Nov 2, 2016 20:56
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shame on an IGA posted:I'm in the deep south and want to show explicit dismembership from the community Eat a bible in front of people and I guarantee you the community will ignore you
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Nov 2, 2016 21:01
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shame on an IGA posted:I'm in the deep south and want to show explicit dismembership from the community I'm in the deep south and have a very different idea of Christianity from many people in the deep south.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:01
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I think we have a very different idea of Christianity in general, at least in comparison to the mainstream
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Nov 2, 2016 21:26
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Moscow Mule posted:American Academy of Religion? God I wish. Yeah, it's a monster of a conference--three full days of meetings, plus half days on either side depending on your group. It's also just before Thanksgiving break, so there will be professors gone a full week before Thanksgiving. I'm not one of them, but still. The program is here, for those interested. Vatican II has its own group! https://papers.aarweb.org/AAR_Sessions.pdf
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Nov 3, 2016 07:04
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That reminds me. Who are some good 20th century Catholic theologians to read? I've read some of Karl Rahner and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's works. Who else is there of note?
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Nov 4, 2016 21:48
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The Phlegmatist posted:That reminds me. Who are some good 20th century Catholic theologians to read? I've read some of Karl Rahner and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's works. Who else is there of note? I don't agree with him but Gustavo Gutierrez is important
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Nov 4, 2016 21:58
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Hans Urs von Balthasar definitely, who in turn was very much inspired by the “nouvelle théologie“ of scholars like Henri de Lubac and Yves Congar. Hans Küng is also important, if only as a foil to official church doctrine in his more contentious points. Karl Barth is afaik *the* Protestant/Lutheran theologian of the 20th century. ...why are most of these guys Germans who pretty much grew up together?
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Nov 4, 2016 22:11
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The Phlegmatist posted:That reminds me. Who are some good 20th century Catholic theologians to read? I've read some of Karl Rahner and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's works. Who else is there of note? Edward Schillebeeckx is a good one.
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Nov 4, 2016 22:19
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No love for Étienne Gilson?
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Nov 4, 2016 22:29
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The Phlegmatist posted:That reminds me. Who are some good 20th century Catholic theologians to read? I've read some of Karl Rahner and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's works. Who else is there of note? ALOYSIUS PIERIS i am probably the only person who would say that also ignacio ellacuria
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Nov 4, 2016 22:39
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Another non-Catholic who is fun to read about is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was a pastor and theologian. That dude died in a Nazi concentration camp because he tried to infiltrate the Nazi government and assassinate Hitler. He also tried to help protect Jews.
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Nov 4, 2016 23:24
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Hans Urs Van Balthasar is pretty rad.
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Nov 5, 2016 00:37
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Hans Urs Van Balthasar is pretty rad. i say this as someone who wanted to go into theology after reading van balthasar no he is not thank you for taking the time to read this message
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Nov 5, 2016 01:09
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Mo Tzu posted:i say this as someone who wanted to go into theology after reading van balthasar he is
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Nov 5, 2016 01:19
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