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Alpha Phoenix posted:Did they announce anything about the new faction other than the edgelord reversed audio clip? They're trying to do some ARG bullshit on the PP Tumblr but there's only like 20 people getting into it. 2 people submitted jack-o-lantern pics and had their names put on a list. There might be some hints at a beast soon, but so far there's no real hook beyond ~spoooky pumpkin head men~.
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Nov 7, 2016 09:30
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Ran that Kreoss1 list over the weekend, popped and dropped Thyra, Nemo3, and Vyros1 (and lost to High Reclaimer) Good times. Highlight was realising Nemo was standing out of feat range behind a line of steady models ... which were all in a trench, so Eiryss could just see over them and tag him.
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Nov 7, 2016 09:43
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They've said they're revealing the new faction at smogcon, so I doubt there will be much else revealed before then, in order to keep it an actually exciting 'reveal'.
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Nov 7, 2016 10:05
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rkajdi posted:Going to be totally different figures, so not really the same thing. If we're playing the invalidated purchase game, Mercs and Minions already got hit with it. Complaining that spam lists for a big boy faction purchased after the edition change are somehow different just strikes me as a dumb double standard. It's almost as if they still fitted PP's rules for converting, being 100% PP model and visibly Gun Mages. I mean, no one will ever give you poo poo over that.
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Nov 7, 2016 10:19
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rkajdi posted:It's funny because there already was non-tier list invalidation this edition. The Puppet Masters contract allowed pistol wraiths and bloat thralls, both of which can't be taken under Operating Room now. It's corner case, but so is every spam list. I was gonna write a big post but that mad dog thread in the khador forums is bad enough. Mad dogs get spammed not just because of the boxes they bring, they also just have far fewer bad matchups than the berserker. They bring so much more to the table and for a point less. They can engage gunlines faster, they can always threaten small based infantry, and on feat they can REALLY threaten any small base model. Boxspam isn't a win condition by itself. It's completely insane why they aren't at least 9 points.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:11
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Just make them mat 2 and give them murderous problem solved
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Nov 7, 2016 16:18
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albany academy posted:I was gonna write a big post but that mad dog thread in the khador forums is bad enough. I agree that Mad Dogs are better than Berserkers, but I don't think the drop off is bad enough that you won't just see one less Berserker as a spam when the Mad Dog is nerfed into the ground. Also, to the guy above who is suggesting cheap jacks are the issue instead of expensive beasts-- is your goal to move the game back more towards infantrymachine? Because that's exactly what nerfing low end jacks instead of improving most beasts (all but the top end really) will do. I rather like the idea of twoish heavies being in every list, and pushing lists away from using jacks again just seems like a negative push to me. The problem isn't too little infantry, it's the imbalance of jacks v. beasts and the spamability of a few cheap jacks.
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Nov 7, 2016 17:49
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rkajdi posted:I agree that Mad Dogs are better than Berserkers, but I don't think the drop off is bad enough that you won't just see one less Berserker as a spam when the Mad Dog is nerfed into the ground. It's actually both things (devalued Infantry and cheap Beasts) that are problems. We live in an environment where Bane Thralls vs Mad Dogs actually favors Mad Dogs in the exchange (17pts vs 7, meaning each BT unit needs to kill 2.5 dogs before being wiped out, which won't happen because Mad Dogs out threat Bane Thralls even without Road to War and can blow up/nuke the whole group), which is insane. When *Bane Thralls* can't keep up with Armor Spam, it's a problem.
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Nov 7, 2016 18:08
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Pure mad dog spam is boring to me. And as the WMW showed, people are branching out by adding more jacks to the list than just mad dogs. Personally, this is how I'd run it. I think karchev benefits a ton from a unit of snipers, to trigger road to war. Khador Army - 75 / 75 points (Karchev 1) Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Mad Dog [7] - Mad Dog [7] - Mad Dog [7] - Berserker [8] - Juggernaut [12] - Juggernaut [12] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Rager [11] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Gobber Tinker [2] Gobber Tinker [2]
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Nov 7, 2016 18:15
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rkajdi posted:I agree that Mad Dogs are better than Berserkers, but I don't think the drop off is bad enough that you won't just see one less Berserker as a spam when the Mad Dog is nerfed into the ground. I wasn't saying they weren't spammable, Im saying they're bad and if you spam them you're spamming a bad jack. The reason mad dog spam is bad is because it's actually good.
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Nov 7, 2016 18:22
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susan posted:It's actually both things (devalued Infantry and cheap Beasts) that are problems. We live in an environment where Bane Thralls vs Mad Dogs actually favors Mad Dogs in the exchange (17pts vs 7, meaning each BT unit needs to kill 2.5 dogs before being wiped out, which won't happen because Mad Dogs out threat Bane Thralls even without Road to War and can blow up/nuke the whole group), which is insane. When *Bane Thralls* can't keep up with Armor Spam, it's a problem. But if Bane Warriors get improved too much, we get stuck back with the stupid MOAR BANEZ lists again, and those were very boring in the first place. Though I guess that since they are now actually vulnerable to shooting they have a decent counter. I guess I'm part of the problem, since I massively prefer a game where infantry is support to the mecha vs. kaiju fight rather than a central piece like it was in MKII. The bait and switch of the starter game being about giant robots but the main game not using them always rubbed me the wrong way.
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Nov 7, 2016 18:31
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Jacks have better stats/cost because fury is way better than focus.
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Nov 7, 2016 18:42
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Mat 7 and powerup was an over correction of the fury/focus disparity. At 12 points a Juggernaut is criminally undercosted compared to most beasts, and it's not even the one that people are spamming.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:25
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Jimmy Hats posted:Jacks have better stats/cost because fury is way better than focus. You say that, but are you really saying that a Troll Impaler is equal to a Juggernaut? Even neglecting the difference in roles, paying the price of a value heavy for a fairly standard shooting light seems excessive. And troll heavies start at 15 for a Mauler and go up from there. The heavy beasts in the value price range (10-12) are things like Neraphs and Rhinodons. So stuff that is on the garbage end of things as opposed to the cost efficient rear end kickers like an Ironclad or Crusader. Beasts pay for their animus and for the superior fury system. Since animi got nerfed this edition, I feel that lots of heavies and even more lights are paying points well beyond their tabletop effectiveness.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:35
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Yes I do think the game needs to swing alittle bit more back towards infantry but only by a tiny bit.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:36
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As a minions player, a juggernaut costs less than: 4 micro-pigs OR 2 bonepiles or 3 bullsnappers.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:41
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counterspin posted:As a minions player, a juggernaut costs less than: 4 micro-pigs OR 2 bonepiles or 3 bullsnappers. Also poor pricing. I don't think you can compare prices on any of the light beasts with the value heavy jacks. That's the issue. I don't think the value jacks will be adjusted upwards because it wrecks the battle box parity, since 3 of the 4 value jacks get used in the battle boxes.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:55
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Panzeh posted:Box spam lists sound like the dumbest poo poo and i'm glad i dropped out of the game in late mk2. What a helpful and entertaining post. Re: Mad Dogs. You guys are overthinking it. Spam lists exist because something is both too cheap for what it does and also good or at least decent against everything they can face. If Mad Dogs were correctly priced, or if there was something which hard-countered lists which are just tons of boxes and armor, this wouldn't be a problem.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:06
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I believe the only 10pt heavy warjack that should be 10pts is the Slayer. It can hit like a truck, but it's weakness are many and it can be dealt with. The other 10pters, being the Crusader and Marauder both hit hard, and can arrive alive/unbroken. Khador makes up for it's one flaw, low spd, with a good chunk of spells to speed them up. I've played vs Menoth far less in mk3 so I'm not sure how easy it is for Menoth to speed 'em up, but they have tons of ways help their jacks. I don't believe Cygnar has a 10pt heavy, The ironclad is their cheapest at 12. Overall though I believe Khador just needs a slight fine tune in points costs across almost all of their jacks. The cheap ones are way better then the pricey ones in all but corner cases. I'd do this, it'd need to be play tested, but I'd think it'd be a much better internal balance for Khador like this then currently. Juggernaut :13pts Decimator: 15pts (maybe even 14) Berserker: 10pts, +1 Mat, Sidestep, -1 arm, maybe +1 str Behemoth: 26-27pts, he should cost an arm and a leg because he's so friggin' good. Black Ivan: 17pts Demolisher: 15pts Destoryer: 15pts Devastator: 14pts (unchanged) Drago: 13pts add sidestep, drop 1 arm, also maybe +1 str. Grolar: 16pts Kodiak: 14pts Mad Dog's: 10pts +1 mat -1arm, +1str Mararuder: 12pts Rager: 10pts, -1 arm. +1 mat Ruin: 18pts Spriggin: 16pts Torch: 19pts Saalkin fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 20:10
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counterspin posted:Mat 7 and powerup was an over correction of the fury/focus disparity. At 12 points a Juggernaut is criminally undercosted compared to most beasts, and it's not even the one that people are spamming. Agreed. Power up felt great and right in the tail end of mk2, and seemed like a good enough answer. I don't really see why they had to nerf animi, fury stats and fury management as well.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:10
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Geisladisk posted:What a helpful and entertaining post. Yep.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:12
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Okay then the only minions value heavy is the blindwalker, functionally an arc node that requires you to pay to use it and damages you with each use, with mat 5 and 2 pow 14 hits at 12 points.
counterspin fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 20:13
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Box spam lists existed in mk2 and they basically defined the evolution of the meta for its last couple years. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Mad dogs do cover too many bases though.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:14
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PaintVagrant posted:Scaling cost FA, as I have advocated a million times in the past few years! Even that probably wouldn't prevent it entirely, but at some point the issue becomes one of underlying imbalances instead of just FA. albany academy posted:Agreed. Power up felt great and right in the tail end of mk2, and seemed like a good enough answer. I don't really see why they had to nerf animi, fury stats and fury management as well.  Old Far Strike and Lightning Strike had to go, but man did PP ever go too far. Too many animi don't matter at all and they're just way underutilized.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:29
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rkajdi posted:You say that, but are you really saying that a Troll Impaler is equal to a Juggernaut? Even neglecting the difference in roles, paying the price of a value heavy for a fairly standard shooting light seems excessive. And troll heavies start at 15 for a Mauler and go up from there. The heavy beasts in the value price range (10-12) are things like Neraphs and Rhinodons. So stuff that is on the garbage end of things as opposed to the cost efficient rear end kickers like an Ironclad or Crusader. An impaler and a jugg are apples and oranges: you're comparing a shooting utility dude to a dedicated melee dude and there's no ground for comparison. As for the jugg/mauler, a mauler has higher speed, fury 5, and a chain attack. Even completely unsupported, a mauler can rage himself and make 5 pow 19 attacks + the grab and smash, and if he gets his warlock to cast his animus for him he gets 7 attacks. A jugg maxes out at 4 pow 19s and a pow 15. Add in the fact that maulers can spend fury without needing it assigned to them, even spending more fury than their warlock can possibly leech, and can have their spirit healed and spend fury in the same turn. (whereas a crippled cortex fucks your jack for at least a turn regardless of repairs), and you can see where that 15 points comes from.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:36
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S.J. posted:Box spam lists existed in mk2 and they basically defined the evolution of the meta for its last couple years. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Mad dogs do cover too many bases though. Box spam as a concept isn't problematic, but a list that just picks one underpriced thing and crams a list full of it and as a result is really powerful is just a textbook game design mistake.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:40
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Geisladisk posted:Box spam as a concept isn't problematic, but a list that just picks one underpriced thing and crams a list full of it and as a result is really powerful is just a textbook game design mistake. What? There's nothing wrong with that being powerful. That should be a viable way to play the game. Mad dogs were 3 of the lists in the masters event but aren't exactly running roughshod over the meta yet.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:46
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S.J. posted:What? There's nothing wrong with that being powerful. That should be a viable way to play the game. Mad dogs were 3 of the lists in the masters event but aren't exactly running roughshod over the meta yet. Only because it costs 550 bux or whatever to field and everyone knows that poo poo is getting nerfed
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Nov 7, 2016 20:54
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Wizard Styles posted:I don't think that alone would be enough, since people would just spam several different cheap jacks instead of the best one. You could make the scaling chassis/type-based, so if you take one Mad Dog and then a Berserker, the Berserker costs 1 point more. Same with taking a unit of Black Dragons and one of regular IFP. I don't think of it a "spam list" if you're taking a bunch of different jacks or units. That's just a "jack heavy list" or an "infantry heavy list" in my book. I may be wrong in my definition though. My biggest problem playing with or against what I consider a spam is that everything does the same thing. Just mixing up weapons on jacks or abilities goes a long way to making things more interesting as far as I'm concerned.
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Nov 7, 2016 21:32
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GoodBee posted:I don't think of it a "spam list" if you're taking a bunch of different jacks or units. That's just a "jack heavy list" or an "infantry heavy list" in my book. I may be wrong in my definition though.  The thread had moved to a discussion of box spam, so that's where I was coming from. To me the problem with lists like that is when the skew goes so far they can only be approached by specific lists and generalist builds are no longer really able to succeed. That's not so much a problem with individual models unless no alternatives exist and they're effectively enabling a specific list in their faction (like Woldwatchers when Bradigus still existed).
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Nov 7, 2016 22:07
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This's also why I think specialists ought to be a default for tournaments rather than an optional rule.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:09
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S.J. posted:This's also why I think specialists ought to be a default for tournaments rather than an optional rule.  serious tournaments.For small local tournaments being inclusive is more important to me, though, and getting two functional 75 point lists together when you're still relatively new to the game is hard enough. e: Or new to a faction. I can barely put together a decent Ret pairing right now myself. Wizard Styles fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 22:19
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So I have been thinking a lot about Una2 and her feat and how its broken. Example, Barnabas's feat is knockdown for all things non amphibious. Based on the current interactions, Barnabas's army wouldn't be able to make any melee attacks on knock downed targets. I feel this puts us back into the helga gang and knockdown situation. Similarly it seems messed up that you can hit with a ranged drag attack, but still not be able to make the melee attacks.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:19
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Wizard Styles posted:Yeah, they should absolutely be default for the Well they don't have to be used even when they're in the rules, so it's no biggie for local tournaments to do it. But yeah. waah posted:So I have been thinking a lot about Una2 and her feat and how its broken. Granted it's more restricted, but they took the 'no melee attacks' poo poo away from Saeryn for what I presume was a reason. Giving no melee attacks to a bunch of DEF 15 stealth models is, uhhhhh
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Nov 7, 2016 22:24
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waah posted:So I have been thinking a lot about Una2 and her feat and how its broken. I mean, it's annoying, but I don't think any of that qualifies as broken. Like, did you think Saeryn was broken in Mk2? Because Una is just a more limited Saeryn, fest wise.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:25
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CaptCommy posted:I mean, it's annoying, but I don't think any of that qualifies as broken. Like, did you think Saeryn was broken in Mk2? Because Una is just a more limited Saeryn, fest wise. Yeah broken is me being a little bitter, but yeah it is definitively annoying.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:27
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S.J. posted:Granted it's more restricted, but they took the 'no melee attacks' poo poo away from Saeryn for what I presume was a reason. Giving no melee attacks to a bunch of DEF 15 stealth models is, uhhhhh 
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Nov 7, 2016 22:31
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Yeah my scaling FA idea only works with the actual base point values being as close to "correct" as possible. It's not a fix for bad costing, just a mild pressure to diversify lists a bit and stop the spams.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:36
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PaintVagrant posted:Yeah my scaling FA idea only works with the actual base point values being as close to "correct" as possible. It's not a fix for bad costing, just a mild pressure to diversify lists a bit and stop the spams. I think it would be a good idea if it started on the 3rd jack instead of the 2nd. Nothing wrong with taking 2 chargers or w/e, and only scaled to +2 points over original cost. e: Someone critique this list please. This's the only caster I don't have for Cygnar and I'd like to start trying him, I think he could have potential. http://conflictchamber.com/#b11b8Z9B9B9F9G9vanaj9b9b7k9u2T4k Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points (Darius 1) Captain E. Dominic Darius [+29] - Halfjack - Centurion [17] - Centurion [17] - Hammersmith [12] - Ironclad [12] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4] Journeyman Warcaster [4] - Charger [9] - Charger [9] Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4] Ragman [4] Alten Ashley [5] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [3] S.J. fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 22:37
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xiw posted:Ran that Kreoss1 list over the weekend, popped and dropped Thyra, Nemo3, and Vyros1 (and lost to High Reclaimer) Good times. Highlight was realising Nemo was standing out of feat range behind a line of steady models ... which were all in a trench, so Eiryss could just see over them and tag him. Did you find the extra shots with the second Redeemer more valuable than the damage buff from Aiyana & Holt or were you wishing you had them? I have a hard time letting A&H go in my list
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Nov 7, 2016 22:52
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