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jivjov posted:Are ableist slurs really necessary? No, and it's lovely to use them, but neither is using the fact that people are using them as some sort of smoke bomb to distract everyone and run away necessary. As far as I can tell, you care about that sort of thing wholly as a front to get away from questions that you don't want to answer, like Reene's. If you don't want to answer poo poo-- or, you know, talk about these books that you apparently love so much, in the thread devoted to talking about them, then grow the hell up, say that, and leave it to the people who do want to discuss them.
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Nov 7, 2016 08:17
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Reene posted:
I actually just somehow managed to miss that post. Dunno if I had an errant refresh of the app that marked it read or what. It's inventory week at work, so it'll take a me a couple days to knock out something sufficiently "analysis"-worthy, but I can do that. I'm due for another reread of NotW at this point too...lemme get through inventory stuff and I'll make a big ol' effortpost about women in NotW for you
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Nov 7, 2016 10:52
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Reene posted:What would be cool and relevant is if jivjov would reply to my questions regarding Rothfuss' depictions of women. He seems to have forgotten about me. You have to understand, the book's sexism is part of its appeal for its "progressive" fans. Jivjov admits that he enjoys violence, as long as it's just fiction. Likewise, Jivjov and others enjoy Rothfuss's sexism, and it's all good because it's just fiction. It's simple hypocrisy and absence of critical thought. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 11:01
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These books are feminist because Rothfuss is a feminist and he says he's feminist and he writes feminist books. Kvothe says rape is bad, it's super-bad, and he doesn't rape anyone even though he easily could have, which is feminist. Fela is a strong female feminist character who has done all sorts of cool things, so when trouble brews, she's there with her friends, ready to be rescued and to use her cleavage as a distraction. Instead of being repressed by the patriarchy, women are free to have sex with whoever they want, which is Kvothe, which is me. Women should do that in real life too, I guess they're just not feminist enough.
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Nov 7, 2016 11:10
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jivjov posted:Are ableist slurs really necessary? We've been over this. It's not a slur as applied to you, LOL at "ableist", and it's necessary but sadly not yet sufficient to try to get you to do the responsible thing and sip a nice glass of Drano on your next reread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 7, 2016 13:50
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Number Ten Cocks posted:We've been over this. It's not a slur as applied to you, LOL at "ableist", and it's necessary but sadly not yet sufficient to try to get you to do the responsible thing and sip a nice glass of Drano on your next reread. 1) why is something being an ableist slur "lol"-worthy to you? Do you not have respect and compassion for the differently-abled? 2) and also telling me to commit suicide? Over a book? You, friend, have some deeper issues
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Nov 7, 2016 14:10
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Does Drano do gastrointestinal damage? Sorry, I thought it was brain damage and you'd be fine.
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Nov 7, 2016 14:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You have to understand, the book's sexism is part of its appeal for its "progressive" fans. This is why everyone should be nihilists. If you have no values then you can never be hypocritical, and thus you can enjoy whatever you drat want. Vote Trump.
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Nov 7, 2016 14:41
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Okay guys, I get disagreeing with Jivjov on Rothfuss being good and on the quality of Rothfuss' feminism, but can we all agree, that like using "raped" as a synonym for "owned" or whatever, we should not used "retarded" when we want to call someone stupid. There are plenty of people that are sensitive to this. My niece is confined to a wheel chair and has trouble speaking, and as such my wife is very sensitive about the word retarded being thrown around. I'm not trying to be some type of PC crusader here, I just like to think there is a basic level of decency we can hold ourselves to, even on Something Awful.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:22
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This thread has finally achieved Rothfussian level discourse. I knew we could get here, you drano drinking retards.
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Nov 7, 2016 18:47
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Benson Cunningham posted:This thread has finally achieved Rothfussian level discourse. I knew we could get here, you drano drinking retards. gently caress you man, I only drink Clorox.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:35
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Hate Fibration posted:gently caress you man, I only drink Clorox. Name brand bitch rear end lunch packing tool box.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:38
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To clarify, I meant that jivjov has Down syndrome.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:02
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CerealCrunch posted:To clarify, I meant that jivjov has Down syndrome. I'm sorry everyone for starting this. Can we go back to talking about how Rothfuss pisses on literature and lives in a crummy drunken tundra full of cheese mines and supper clubs?
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Nov 7, 2016 20:15
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CerealCrunch posted:To clarify, I meant that jivjov has Down syndrome. That is an incorrect assertion.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:20
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jivjov posted:That is an incorrect assertion. Please don't compare people with Down's Syndrome to Jivjov. They in no way deserve that.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:28
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Solice Kirsk posted:I'm sorry everyone for starting this. Can we go back to talking about how Rothfuss pisses on literature and lives in a crummy drunken tundra full of cheese mines and supper clubs? Alas, I'm delaying my update again and again (not in a Rothfussian manner, since it will come out eventually), so the thread will probably be occupied with the autist for a while. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 20:43
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Maybe we could brainstorm a bunch of ideas for book 3 and write our own ending, one where Kvothe is exposed as a hack fraud con man living off the exploits of the much smarter, handsomer, and altruistic Draco Malfoy.
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Nov 7, 2016 21:26
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HIJK posted:Maybe we could brainstorm a bunch of ideas for book 3 and write our own ending, one where Kvothe is exposed as a hack fraud con man living off the exploits of the much smarter, handsomer, and altruistic Draco Malfoy. No, that would still live up to Rothfuss' ideal of a hero. What needs to happen is Kvothe took credit for the deeds of a large collection of completely unrelated people. Also: All of them have to be illiterate peasant women who are slightly racist. Hate Fibration fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 21:34
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What I don't get is how Rothfuss seems to be universally beloved by other fantasy writers and often gets cited as an inspiration. Is he that much of a kingmaker in the genre that so many people are angling for book jacket quotes?
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Nov 7, 2016 23:45
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Paragon8 posted:What I don't get is how Rothfuss seems to be universally beloved by other fantasy writers and often gets cited as an inspiration. He sells a poo poo-ton of books (enough to be set for life plus get a hollywood deal based on two novels. He's selling enough books that he can pretty much tell his publisher "gently caress you, book three will be done when I feel like it," and that's not a common thing). When a writer's on that tier of success, yeah, getting a nod from him can be huge. I can't prove this, but I've heard more than once that a Twitter shout-out from Neil Gaiman can turn a book into a bestseller. Rothfuss is on that level, just without the talent and way creepier. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some fantasy writers kissed his rear end in the hopes of an endorsement.
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Nov 8, 2016 02:14
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Paragon8 posted:What I don't get is how Rothfuss seems to be universally beloved by other fantasy writers and often gets cited as an inspiration. If all genre fantasy writers were people of discerning taste, there would be no genre fantasy.
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Nov 8, 2016 08:00
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If all genre fantasy writers were people of discerning taste, there would be no genre fantasy. I think you mean readers. Writers would still want to make monies.
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Nov 8, 2016 12:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If all genre fantasy writers were people of discerning taste, there would be no genre fantasy. I think Rothfuss is almost talented. He is almost well read. He almost understood picaresque enough to bring it to genre fantasy but then he did the lazy thing and tried smooshing his old stories into a vaguely picaresque shape. The fantasy crowd still loved it.
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Nov 8, 2016 15:25
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Yeah, Rothfuss is not a good author by critical literary standards. His prose isn't half as nice as he thinks it is, his editors are clearly whipped into submission, and he has a whole hell of a lot of trouble writing characters that fulfill the objectives he has for them (in regards to character quality). He has, however, managed to write books that are incredibly entertaining when not approached critically. I can enjoy Rothfuss in a similar way as I can enjoy a generic action flick. It doesn't require me to exercise my brain at all, and yields an appropriate amount of entertainment. It obviously falls apart completely when you bring it within arms reach of a critical analysis, but so do a lot of other things I enjoy 
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Nov 8, 2016 16:32
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ChickenWing posted:Yeah, Rothfuss is not a good author by critical literary standards. His prose isn't half as nice as he thinks it is, his editors are clearly whipped into submission, and he has a whole hell of a lot of trouble writing characters that fulfill the objectives he has for them (in regards to character quality). But nothing happens in his books for pages and pages, chapters and chapters. I also never understood the "turn your brain off thing". There are both good and bad action movies. See: Mad Max versus Transformers. If I'm picking up a book, I'm explicitly not turning my brain off. That doesn't mean it has to be the highest quality text in the world, but it should inspire something in me.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:37
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How are they entertaining? There's no plot, there's no action, there's no characterization, there's no conflict that isn't immediately resolved? Where's the fun? Like, I know gently caress all about Literature, but can pretty safely tell you he's an atrocious fantasy writer. For one, there's no loving fantasy in it in the first place, his unrealistic elements are as unimaginative as they come.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:39
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ChickenWing posted:He has, however, managed to write books that are incredibly entertaining when not approached critically. They're actually quite bad by any standatds. The jumbled plot, the awkward writing, poor characterization, and the dullness of its fantasy among other things are all readily perceptible without ever touching Harold Bloom or whatever. This is why when pressed to ask what about the books is good, the fake fans just avoid answering and start blathering.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:41
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Atlas Hugged posted:But nothing happens in his books for pages and pages, chapters and chapters. I also never understood the "turn your brain off thing". There are both good and bad action movies. See: Mad Max versus Transformers. If I'm picking up a book, I'm explicitly not turning my brain off. That doesn't mean it has to be the highest quality text in the world, but it should inspire something in me. I don't turn my brain off, per se. I just don't delve particularly deep into what I'm reading. I read for entertainment because it provokes my imagination. Different part of the brain.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:42
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As with the classism and sexism, the lack of entertainment is exactly the draw. The banal and the boring are what attract readers to the books. Nobody actually enjoys the world-building, they want to be bored and distracted.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:As with the classism and sexism, the lack of entertainment is exactly the draw. The banal and the boring are what attract readers to the books. Nobody actually enjoys the world-building, they want to be bored and distracted. I like world building. Rothfuss is just awful at it.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:47
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anilEhilated posted:How are they entertaining? There's no plot, there's no action, there's no characterization, there's no conflict that isn't immediately resolved? Where's the fun? There is a plot, it's just not very good. There is characterization, it's just not very good. There is long-term conflict, it's just not very good. They're not bad. They're just not very good. However, they come together and end up being enjoyable to read. BravestOfTheLamps posted:As with the classism and sexism, the lack of entertainment is exactly the draw. The banal and the boring are what attract readers to the books. Nobody actually enjoys the world-building, they want to be bored and distracted. I'm not bored when I read them, though. I'm interested in what's happening, and I'm interested in how that will affect what happens next. I'm okay with hearing about Some gently caress: The Search For More Money, because it's vaguely relatable, while still being exciting and fantasy. (e: to clarify, it's "The Search For More Money" bit that's relatable. I'm not relating to killing rapists and caressing their victims.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:52
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Atlas Hugged posted:But nothing happens in his books for pages and pages, chapters and chapters. I also never understood the "turn your brain off thing". There are both good and bad action movies. See: Mad Max versus Transformers. If I'm picking up a book, I'm explicitly not turning my brain off. That doesn't mean it has to be the highest quality text in the world, but it should inspire something in me. The Mad Max/Transformers thing is a great analogy. Rothfuss isn't aggressively awful. He's competent, at least, and I've read way, way worse, but watching his hardcore fans discuss his work genuinely sounds like, "No, you just don't understand the epic poetry and symbolism of Michael Bay! That moment when the two jive-talking autobots commented about the giant robot's balls was one of the finest moments in science fiction cinema!" On the other hand, I can respect people who just want to kick back and read his books as a fantasy romp, and not even consider approaching it on a literary level, but in that situation Rothfuss is a poor choice compared to any number of fantasy writers who do the "turn off your brain and have fun" thing better than he ever could. Go get some Sanderson. (It doesn't help that Rothfuss is such a dick. I've met Sanderson, and just like everyone else who's met him, I can say he's an incredibly nice dude, super-gracious, just the model of what you'd hope a celebrity would act like. That doesn't magically make Sanderson a brilliant writer, but I'm willing to go a long way to give him the benefit of the doubt and stick around even if some of his books are clunkers. He worked hard to earn me as a fan. Rothfuss, on the other hand, acts like he can barely stand his own readers and he's entitled to his fame. That is, when he isn't going off on random tirades about how we all closed his favorite airport bookstore or some poo poo.)
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Nov 8, 2016 17:07
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ChickenWing posted:I'm not bored when I read them, though. I'm interested in what's happening, and I'm interested in how that will affect what happens next. As Jivjov described way back, anyone who enjoys Kingkiller actually ignores the text. Like you can't even describe what's entertaining, merely that "things happen" and "you want to find out about things happening". The actual text is almost incidental. StonecutterJoe posted:Rothfuss isn't aggressively awful. quote:I moved a finger and the chord went minor in a way that always sounded to me as if the lute were saying sad. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 17:56
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To be fair, dropping to a minor key especially after some nice suspension does scream sad. Its also not something a musician would ever say.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:15
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And as someone who knows incredibly little about music theory, there's literally nothing wrong with that line to me.BravestOfTheLamps posted:As Jivjov described way back, anyone who enjoys Kingkiller actually ignores the text. Like you can't even describe what's entertaining, merely that "things happen" and "you want to find out about things happening". The actual text is almost incidental. I don't understand what you mean by this. The text is required for reading. I'm not ignoring it. It is fulfilling its function of describing the events of the story to me and stimulating my imagination in such a way that I am entertained. I'm currently in search of my copy of NotW so that I can finally give it a reread (finished The Crippled God in like a week, forgot how
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Nov 8, 2016 18:21
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ChickenWing posted:And as someone who knows incredibly little about music theory, there's literally nothing wrong with that line to me. It's clunkily written. The prose is gracelessly blunt in a way that suggests the writer is attempting to be humorous or ironic, but if that's the intention it doesn't come across at all. You don't have to know poo poo about musical theory to think that line is hamfisted. It's something a kid would write during a creative writing class. In high school. I tried to do the empty literary calories thing. I like plenty of books that are bad -- Anne Rice is some of my favorite filler reading. But I genuinely don't understand how people sit down and read through the series without constantly thinking either "I wish something was happening" or "I wish literally anything except this was happening." And I read through the series twice.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:As with the classism and sexism, the lack of entertainment is exactly the draw. The banal and the boring are what attract readers to the books. Nobody actually enjoys the world-building, they want to be bored and distracted. Yeah in that respect the lack of clear throughlines is a feature, not a bug. It's easy for the reader to go from vignette to vignette without getting lost because there's not enough information you're asked to track that you could lose yourself in. Kvothe is there, now he's here. Does there affect here? No, not really. All you need to do is focus on the moment of the scene you're reading. It goes a long way towards explaining how people can burn through two huge books as fast as they often do. You never have to slow down and recall information
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Nov 8, 2016 18:32
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ChickenWing posted:And as someone who knows incredibly little about music theory, You could have stopped there.
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Nov 8, 2016 19:04
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Yeah in that respect the lack of clear throughlines is a feature, not a bug. It's easy for the reader to go from vignette to vignette without getting lost because there's not enough information you're asked to track that you could lose yourself in. Kvothe is there, now he's here. Does there affect here? No, not really. All you need to do is focus on the moment of the scene you're reading. And anytime information needs to be recalled it will just be regurgitated. How many times does Kvothe mention how hard it is to find Denna and how long he spend looking for his waifu?
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Nov 8, 2016 19:06
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