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Nov 8, 2016 17:46
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:None of those games are even remotely close in scope to Star Citizen. All four are massively multiplayer games, but they lack the graphics and level of detail (and subsequently the computation and networking requirements) that Star Citizen apparently demands. At best you can call them the "half the scope" games that Chris Roberts mentioned in his Escapist rant, and that was $40M ago for a project who has explicitly stated that scope is tied to funding. Furthermore you're once again omitting that Chris Roberts himself declared that development started in 2011, and explicitly did as a means of assuaging concerns that the original schedule was too ambitious. right, those were the closest comparables. representative of the tasks cig are facing. how else was i supposed to answer your question? how else can we have this discussion? so since none of those are even close in scope, then you agree star citizen is going to take longer and cost more... scope *is* tied to funding. they need to run it like a an ongoing service... another thing "comparable" games have not had to due. infrastructure, customer support, etc. that requires revenue. everything that was said in 2011 or 2012 can be tossed out the window as it was informed by what was known at that time. much changed since then, and there is a lot more known now... and the current realities of running that business demonstrate. and sure. you can keep nitpicking on the 2011 date with 4 people in a garage preparing for a crowdfunding campaign were somehow actively contributing to the production of this game with unmatched scope, if you like. chris roberts has since declared (with historical information in-hand) that production actually started in 2013. so lets split the hairs and call in 2012, like I mentioned. i'm not trying to change your (or anyone's) mind, i just want to clarify that the situation they are in right now is not all that different from comparable cases in the industry. the finish? remains to be seen... could work out, could crash and burn.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:47
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next up in star citizen thread: z0r/zazzmatazz chains
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Nov 8, 2016 17:48
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whoa
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Nov 8, 2016 17:48
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nice!
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Nov 8, 2016 17:48
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Lazrin posted:- wildstar - 9 years
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Nov 8, 2016 17:49
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A Neurotic Jew posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5bqt46/constructive_suggestion_to_cig_on_how_better/d9r2a5z/ The best defense is that it's an attack, instead of people coming to realize the promises are not coming true, and the only thing CIG can reliably be counted on is another ship/concept sale for money. Eventually people will maybe start asking questions. They may get a little upset. They may even want their money back. But sure, it's a focused attack and CIG is the huge multinational victim, halted in their tracks because people post on a forum.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:48
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Lazrin posted:games in the same category; large mmos are comparable games. It really amazes me how many of you guys don't seem to understand the underlying premise of so many of the complaints with CIG. You can't compare the development time of a game which is fully funded by a game company with the development time of a game done extensively with pre-sales and "pledges" as if they are the same. The game company can take that length of time because they have the money, and can scale time and scope depending on what they are willing to spend based on potential return. CIG has to rely mainly on pre-sales, and those are going to be driven primarily on the credibility of CIG when it comes to drawing new backers. And they've pretty well burned thru any credibility they started with. Not because of Derek, not because of Goons, but because they couldn't keep their word on sooooo many things once they started seeing dollar signs and really seem to hate the idea of telling the truth about the state of development. And that's when the results seen over time in development starts to weigh in. If they actually had something significant right now with respect to gameplay mechanics, they could probably limp thru some of the credibility issues. If they had actually kept their word and kept backers properly informed instead of lying and breaking promises, they could easily weather the delays and timeline changes. They didn't do either and are now scrambling to try to grab even more cash whatever way they can. Toss in the type of community they've fostered and built, and how it's more likely to drive away a potential backer than attract one, and it does not bode for a bright shiney future for SC.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:52
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Lazrin posted:everything that was said in 2011 or 2012 can be tossed out the window as it was informed by what was known at that time. much changed since then, and there is a lot more known now... and the current realities of running that business demonstrate. This is a good point but I like to think that in years to come (with historical information in-hand) we'll be able to say that there never actually was a production start date.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:54
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TheAgent posted:I dunno how anyone could guesstimate more october mocap in august, but okay Ummm, not to rain on your parade. But I can guess more mocap in March and again in May. And will need to do another shoot Augustish.  Knowing how bad Crobbers is at this game development stuff is making the prediction stuff easier and easier.Another prediction: ME:A will be released long before we ever see anything related to SQ42. See like MOMA says--predicting CIG will screw up isn't even hard. If you really, really want to make bold predictions--predict when CIG will do something a company creating a game would do! Predict the impossible--like when the NPOC ratio will be 9 to 1 with NPCs so lifelike you won't be able to tell if they are players or AI. Or maybe predict the next big game mechanic. I predict the next great game mechanic will be crypto-locks. A mini-game where the AI is filling in spots and you have to fill in four in a row--call it Connect-Four-in-Space! Either that or a engine rev bar like the old Activision Dragster game on Atari. (Seeing as how the Links386 swing meter didn't do so good...) Looking forward to the next bath of leaks.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:54
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TheAgent posted:as of October 15th, 2016 they didn't have a basic vertical slice demo of sq42 mission dialogue ready That checks out. "ME:A is going to be 5 years of development just to make a single player in an engine they know inside out (Frostbite in DA:Inquisition), with an experienced team already set up years ago, with a universe imagery and art already done (even if they have now decided to leave the Milky Way) and with tons of money from day one." Either that or SQ42 launches next year as expected and it is crap.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:56
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TheAgent posted:if you want chris to keep pulling down $700k+ a year with bonuses and vacations billed to the company, sure you can keep saying stuff like that but until you can prove it, it's worth less than nothing that would be egregious for sure.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:59
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Welcome to Troll Reviews, where we dissect the masterful posting of Lazrin, troll king-under-mountain.Lazrin posted:games in the same category; large mmos are comparable games. Here he comes in with evidence! A masterful feint! Surely this fact-bomb stuns all goons who read it, unable to comprehend its truth. Lazrin posted:
Look how he runs circles around the helpless goons, his "two games" pincer maneuver is very effective on all but those who think critically for a moment and realize that building another game from common assets with common gameplay should be a work savings. Lazrin posted:
It's always good to throw in some surreal, disturbing assertions out of nowhere, and anything about this game being impressive qualifies as such, easily. Surely readers are catatonic or in seizures by now. Lazrin posted:now... i'll give this - pretty soon it will be harder to make it look like there's progress. up to now, building all of the technical foundational stuff could be relatively nebulous... but that that's the nature of the beast, and progress becomes much more rapid once those pieces are in place. Bookend your fact-feint with a reasonable promise of accountability, that way those TLDRing think you're Cicero or something. Overall, this post has been a great troll. The evidence doesn't apply, the two game maneuver defies all reason and your promise of accountability is sure to be walked back and the goalposts moved along as its "deadline" approaches, just like Star Citizen. 0/10 posting score (Our highest award) for God-Emperor Shithouse.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:59
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Lazrin posted:right, those were the closest comparables. representative of the tasks cig are facing. In what way other than "Make it so a bunch of people can play together" are any of those games representative of the engineering debt CIG has drummed up for themselves? Lazrin posted:they need to run it like a an ongoing service... another thing "comparable" games have not had to due. infrastructure, customer support, etc. that requires revenue. See: every AAA game with a season pass, every game with a monthly subscription, and every other game that uses a publisher to foot initial costs and then uses sales profits to work towards ongoing development Lazrin posted:chris roberts has since declared (with historical information in-hand) that production actually started in 2013. Sure, but first he said 2011. That's not nitpicking. That's quoting him. He said "We started developing in 2011." That's a quote.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:02
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Lazrin posted:you can keep saying stuff like that but until you can prove it, it's worth less than nothing Prove what, another negative? It's CIG's job to prove they can do what they claim to be able to do, not ours to disprove them. They're the ones who want cash from idiots
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Nov 8, 2016 18:02
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Lazrin vs this crab, who is better at not being completely loving pointless and dumb? Discuss. http://i.imgur.com/91Vy8No.gifv
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Nov 8, 2016 18:04
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Beet Wagon posted:Lazrin vs this crab, who is better at not being completely loving pointless and dumb? Discuss. This crab is rad, Lazrin is bad.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:04
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Maw posted:This crab is rad, Lazrin is bad. 
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Nov 8, 2016 18:06
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Lazrin posted:games in the same category; large mmos are comparable games. Even trying to be effective by sharing tech and assets between two games done in parallel (which was the case do all the aforementioned studios) apparently hasn't improved things. That's a pretty grim appraisal of the situation you end up with there… Tippis fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 18:06
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Lazrin posted:you can keep saying stuff like that but until you can prove it, it's worth less than nothing combine that with maui vacations, limited edition porches, a $4 to $5m dollar home these are not things that a guy in LA making $200k a year can even come close to affording and dont forget they drive a porsche cayenne to ferry the kids around. that poo poo aint cheap man I know $100 to $200k/y sounds like a lot of money (and it is) but living the high life, especially in LA, is very, very loving expensive. chris roberts is the CEO of a very, very large global company with hundreds of employees, you bet your rear end he's pulling down $700k+ and living like it now he is giving back to the company, reinvesting, but he gets benefits for that too TheAgent fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 18:06
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Lazrin posted:@the titanic - take a look at the responses - this is how i know they don't have anything to say when faced with facts, or won't acknowledge when i highlight potential problems. they just make noises I'm looking at your list, and they are hotbar type games. Damage is rolled instead of calculated. Combat mechanics are tied to server handled timers. I don't think any of them emphasize vehicular combat either. It's all personal level combat, but I could be wrong. The only similarities may be inventory management, character customization, and that Star Citizen is hoping to eventually support as many players as they do. I think you need to look at the vision of Star Citizen. Maybe you don't get it? In a nutshell I think Star Citizen is trying to be: 1: Battlefield with vehicles and personal combat, except infinitely large with no map borders. 2: EVE Online in size, population, and trading. 3: No Mans Sky in that you can walk anywhere on any landable surface. 4: GTA5 in AI, more highly detailed mini games, and just as capable in a seamless world delivery. 5: Unreal Engine sizzle reel level of fidelity and detail. And all of this and more in a massive online game where twitch reflexes are supposed to be the accepted play level instead of MMO target-timer stuff. The games you listed were nothing near what Star Citizen wants to be. I think you might want to review what Star Citizen is supposed to be, and then hopefully come to a similar conclusion that there is nothing of this scope. I feel like you just chose MMOs with long development times close to or exceeding Star Citizen currently and hoped for the best, despite there is no similarities.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:09
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Beet Wagon posted:Sure, but first he said 2011. That's not nitpicking. That's quoting him. He said "We started developing in 2011." That's a quote. Don't argue against abrogation, it's a theological concept protected by whatever amendment.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:10
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Lazrin posted:games in the same category; large mmos are comparable games. Mr. Lazrin - As idiotic as it might be (and any mocking by thread sheriffs I receive will be well received) I would like to engage in a discussion of your 'facts' presented here. Specifically, your example of SW:TOR. Where do you source this 6 year development time? Bioware Austin was founded in March 2006. A 2008 preview noted that some of the writing staff (less than a dozen) had already been working on the game for nearly 2 years. The game released in 2011, with a full beta test occurring mid 2010. That is 5.5 years AT MOST for a game that is still one of THE biggest titles in terms of development ever, from studio founding. The equivalent point for SC was 2011. You can argue all you want about when development 'really started', but if you are doing an apples-to-apples comparison, the time is from studio founding to releasing the game. In that regard, SC is leagues behind BioWare. Okay, you might say, but BioWare had an engine to use and a talent pool from its other branches to pull from and an already licensed IP etc etc. So counter example: the only other truly "living universe" example out there, EVE Online. The timeline for THAT game? CCP Founded - June 1997 CCP Develops a freaking board game to finance themselves - Sometime after 1997 and before 2003 EVE Online Released - May 2003 That's 5 years, 11 months from inception of a studio in a guys garage and thinking 'oh hey we can't crowfund nerds out of millions of dollars so lets do the next best thing and create a board game that will become a national bestseller so we can make the craziest MMO of all time' to releasing an MMO that is one of the few decade long successes in the industry, with nearly bespoke everything. Also of note, they did that without hundreds of millions of dollars of funding and in Iceland, not in the middle of several of the most fertile game development locales in the world. So how does this stack up against where we are currently with SC, in your view, and why is the fact that a fully functioning, playable vertical slice is not available so far in when other devs had fully functional games shipped and in players hands? Thread, forgive me, but I need something other than electionchat to fill my pointless arguing on the internet itch. Beluga Snail fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 18:11
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Beet Wagon posted:No way man, I'm a lifer. I've been in too long, gone too deep. I've stared into the abyss such that it has seen all that I am and ever will be. Interspersed with yet more proof (vis a vis my shitposts) I am not NEARLY as funny as I think I am.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:14
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just out of curiosity does anyone else think lazrin might not be mentally ill or just dumb, but literally mentally retarded? and if he is, should I be feeling bad for laughing at him? thanks for any assistance.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:13
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TheAgent posted:I don't think you understand just how much a high end vacation on the italian coast costs The backers will never 
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Nov 8, 2016 18:14
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Lazrin posted:@the titanic - take a look at the responses - this is how i know they don't have anything to say when faced with facts, or won't acknowledge when i highlight potential problems. they just make noises You're describing yourself here, you know that, right? You don't mean “they”; you mean “you”. You've been offered facts and you make ignorant, uncomprehending, and woefully misinformed blubbering noises in return when those facts don't match your head canon — i.e. every time.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:18
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A Neurotic Jew posted:just out of curiosity does anyone else think lazrin might not be mentally ill or just dumb, but literally mentally retarded?
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Nov 8, 2016 18:18
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A Neurotic Jew posted:just out of curiosity does anyone else think lazrin might not be mentally ill or just dumb, but literally mentally retarded? No and no, in roughly that order. Or… well, I suppose “why choose” is a better fit in the first case.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:20
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Lazrin posted:right, those were the closest comparables. representative of the tasks cig are facing. how else was i supposed to answer your question? how else can we have this discussion? So in the end you agree with me. Star Citizen has no comparable game, scope is tied to funding, and this is going to take forever (if it can even be done). Glad we're on the same page. Now you can quit regurgitating that line about how typical Star Citizen's development is when compared to other games. Star Citizen started development in 2011. Chris said so. Bringing that up, especially when the original purpose of that statement was to justify the original schedule, is not nit-picking. That Chris also said that production started in 2013 is irrelevant and certainly doesn't justified shifting a factual date around. Trying to bargain is a wonderful coping mechanism but it's not really useful when discussing actual facts. Here's another fact; if you go by the descriptions of other developers then Star Citizen isn't even in production yet. Given how readily CIG is willing to throw out terms while acknowledging they're not how the rest of the industry uses them (such as what an "alpha" means), that seems disingenuous. So you have a game that is definitely not progressing normally compared to other games (because no other game is anywhere near their scope), has been in development for five years but can't even show a single level for a game due
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Nov 8, 2016 18:20
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Star Citizen's development began in 2011. This is something Chris has confirmed. The change in scope does not matter, it is still the same project, with the same engine, with the same leads/people in charge. So, either you believe Chris lied about 2011, so that he could fool people into giving him money, or you believe that the project began in earnest in 2011. 5 years. 5 years and no vertical slice and very little functioning gameplay, which means it'll take even longer and require more money. But Chris said they had enough, 2 years ago. Or did the scope change after 2014? EA was right to tell Chris to gently caress off with his ideas when he approached them half a decade ago.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:19
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A Neurotic Jew posted:just out of curiosity does anyone else think lazrin might not be mentally ill or just dumb, but literally mentally retarded? You just gotta be a retard to withstand the Prowler imo I mean that's a Smart man's ship
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Nov 8, 2016 18:22
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Beluga Snail posted:Mr. Lazrin - You are forgiven, friend. This was a good read!
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Nov 8, 2016 18:25
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TheAgent posted:I know $100 to $200k/y sounds like a lot of money (and it is) but living the high life, especially in LA, is very, very loving expensive. chris roberts is the CEO of a very, very large global company with hundreds of employees, you bet your rear end he's pulling down $700k+ and living like it Around here it makes you middle class.  But on the upside. I'll be able to retire to a southern state and live the bourgeoisie life. ALA Derek. Also going back to Sandi's pic. I think it is interesting that they put them all into that room that was obviously not designed for it. I mean look at the access panel on the floor. That's where your desk goes when your a fancy pants man and don't want to have wires leading to your desk that's in the middle of the room. From the lack of distress on the carpet squares, that room had not seen a lot of use. Ben's old office perhaps? 
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Nov 8, 2016 18:28
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Hamburger Test posted:Facts: Yeah, no. KoA actually came out and was playable (and actually fun for the most part). It also had amazingly good graphics given it's high potato compatibility.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:28
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upper end 3~ bedroom house in LA (near beach) average, $2.8m (crazy low interest rate of 2.9%, 25/y) = $14k/m (does not include insurance or taxes) 3 porsche leases: $2.5k/m (probably a lot more) (does not include insurance) just right there you're looking at over $16k/m to clear your basic expenses that's about $200k a year, just for your house and cars you'd need to make around $800k/y to make that feasible obviously chris roberts was just super successful and had all these things before he got untold millions from idiots
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Nov 8, 2016 18:30
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TheAgent posted:I don't think you understand just how much a high end vacation on the italian coast costs chris was already quite successful and quite wealthy before this all started. but again. throw down some proof, and i'll completely agree.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:30
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Lazrin posted:chris was already quite successful and quite wealthy before this all started. where's your proof
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Nov 8, 2016 18:32
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Lazrin posted:chris was already quite successful and quite wealthy before this all started.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:32
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Lazrin posted:chris was already quite successful and quite wealthy before this all started.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:33
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