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Rexides posted:I had great fun with 1UPT when it was introduced in V, but two games later I have to give in and realize that Firaxis have no way of making an AI that knows how it works. If I have to sit down though and play Civ, I'd still take that over Civ 4 stacks. This is how much I dislike them. All fair points. Along with some other recent feedback and I'm starting to envision Endless Space's model for fleets. The max you can stack in a single fleet in ES is based on the technology tree (which in Civ would extend to civics and policies), and the fleets more or less battle as a unit. Depending on the arsenal of the opposing fleets, you may or may not be more likely to outright lose some of the units in the fleet. Medic/support units take up slots like anything else in the fleet, so there are budgetary constraints. Corps/armies are a step in that direction, and I could see the hypothetical Civ VI's version of Beyond The Sword taking a huge step towards something much more robust than corps/armies. The cost of units would have to be greatly diminished or decoupled from infrastructure production for players to reasonably be able to create large armies, though. Chucat posted:Hills offer comical defense bonuses, forests and jungles offer even stupider ones. Attacking across a river is a dumb idea. Wow, it's almost like having your attacking troops go from (forested) hill to hill as they advance, and then parking on a hill as you siege down their city and then attacking NOT across a river might be taking advantage of terrain as you surround their city. Also setting up chokepoints on hills to block attacking units from advancing might also work? No, I have advanced brain damage, I must be wrong. I think that was the point of Civ IV's terrain being flawed - your entire army could employ the same terrain strategy. The world map, in the context of combat, is meant to be a little more abstract from the city layout. As you said yourself, it's impossible for army sizes and city capacities etc to be accurately reflected on a map (you have longbowmen that can reach what roughly looks like the distance from London to Calais? gtfo). If you play a Total War game, which are arguably the most accurate battle strategy games out there, every battle involves taking advantage of multiple terrain types and having an army that does not move as a unit. That's not to say that even Civ V/VI has executed that well (they haven't), but I appreciate what they're trying to do. Troop arrangement in V/VI feels more like chess compared to IV, even if the person sitting across the board is half as intelligent as before. nessin posted:Also the person your replied to about siege units mentioned "splash damage", it's even in your quote. The Flank Attack mechanic in Civ IV was the very definition of splash damage. Also this.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:46
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nessin posted:That image shows a stack that will roll over that city. so yeah they can march right in because you don't have a doomstack and roll over that city in one or two turns. No it doesn't and no it didn't,
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Nov 8, 2016 18:50
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Borsche69 posted:No it doesn't and no it didn't, 8 UU Crossbowman, 3 Axeman, a Spearman, and 3 Trebs will definitely be able to tear down a walled city defended by a chariot, longbowman, and archer with little difficulty. Likely going to lose a unit or two, but they'd do it pretty easy whether they actually did or not. Unless the list on the left isn't showing the stack south of the city, but that is what you implied.
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Nov 8, 2016 18:57
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By the time they show up the defenders should have an additional longbowman plus maybe a rushed one, and they should be able to reinforce from the nearby cities
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Nov 8, 2016 19:07
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Can you guys stop spoiling warfare for me, I am still in the tuber and menagerie era.
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Nov 8, 2016 19:12
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StashAugustine posted:By the time they show up the defenders should have an additional longbowman plus maybe a rushed one, and they should be able to reinforce from the nearby cities yeah that's 5 lb + 3 chaff + 50% walls minimum
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Nov 8, 2016 19:13
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Chalks posted:Wonders are similarly badly handled. I believe you can demolish their construction site to recover some gold from the construction or something but it's a really weird decision. I wonder whether there was some big problem with letting production carry over through the "change production" screen that they had to come up with a bunch of lovely ways to avoid doing it. No, someone said they thought this was the case earlier in the thread, but unless I am missing some special way to do it it is not true. There's nothing to remove on a failed wonder site, putting a builder there doesn't let you click the remove button.
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Nov 8, 2016 19:16
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StashAugustine posted:By the time they show up the defenders should have an additional longbowman plus maybe a rushed one, and they should be able to reinforce from the nearby cities A) 30 gold will not rush produce one longbowman, let alone 2 or 3 to really swing it. B) I accounted for that. The units in the city (including the city itself) would be physically incapable of killing anything in the stack as is by the time they could take down the city, there literally isn't enough shots/combats to do it. In order to kill something, which I did mention, you'd have to assume one or two more units coming in for support. c) If Chucat had moved out on the turn shown, and assuming the Chinese were moving in, at most one single longbowman would have made it in time to reinforce and shoot at something just once. Maybe two if they were just off to the left. Edit: Based entirely on that picture if the Chinese were moving in that city was dead with mininmal losses and any attempt to save it without an opposing stack of at least a quarter to half that size would have resulted in the reinforcements either dying in the city or just outside it after it was taken over. nessin fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 19:24
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Darkrenown posted:No, someone said they thought this was the case earlier in the thread, but unless I am missing some special way to do it it is not true. There's nothing to remove on a failed wonder site, putting a builder there doesn't let you click the remove button. That's really bad, how does something like that not come out in QA as a real feel bad mechanic?
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Nov 8, 2016 19:36
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Chalks posted:That's really bad, how does something like that not come out in QA as a real feel bad mechanic? i'm thinking that the feedback cycle in VI was a more of a straight line
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Nov 8, 2016 19:38
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I finished my first, and I think only game, and no less than 9 achievements popped up 
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Nov 8, 2016 19:41
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I started on Prince and it's simultaneously far too easy and really annoying. Towards the end, the AI just started declaring wars randomly while my apparent lack of knowledge when it comes to how to get tons of production going really slowed down my space race and it just got really annoying. I want to turn the difficulty up, but at the same time, I'm worried that the AI's apparent tendency to randomly declare surprise wars after being at Friendly status for dozens of turns will go beyond annoying on higher difficulties. Any tips for that? Is that just a quirk on Prince, when you can get so far ahead that they all just start declaring war to slow you down or something? Also, are there any good guides for city/district placement and actually getting decent production going? Last question: any recommended rebalancing mods?
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Nov 8, 2016 20:08
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Harrow posted:I started on Prince and it's simultaneously far too easy and really annoying. Towards the end, the AI just started declaring wars randomly while my apparent lack of knowledge when it comes to how to get tons of production going really slowed down my space race and it just got really annoying. Make ranged units and accept the fact that you most likely have to shoot several of their units to death before they surrender.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:17
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Harrow posted:Also, are there any good guides for city/district placement and actually getting decent production going? Overlapping factories/power plants, internal trade routes (some int'l routes will get hammers too), and adjacency bonuses for the industrial zones (near mines/quarries) is most of it right there. Keep in mind the base distance is 6 hexes from the zone, so even (arbitrary) 6 cities in a circle with a lot of empty space in the middle can all help each other if they build their industrial zones towards the center. Also chop old-growth forests and clear jungles strategically. Sometimes you also have to brute-force it and manage citizens, or at least tell the city to emphasize hammers. Harrow posted:I want to turn the difficulty up, but at the same time, I'm worried that the AI's apparent tendency to randomly declare surprise wars after being at Friendly status for dozens of turns will go beyond annoying on higher difficulties. Any tips for that? Is that just a quirk on Prince, when you can get so far ahead that they all just start declaring war to slow you down or something? Early game just tends to be more barbaric and senseless with the wars, which is kind of accurate anyway. They're doing it to each other and to city-states just as much as they're doing it to you. Just get your handful of slingers early on, clear barbarians with them for a couple of boosts (including Archery), then upgrade them to archers for cheap and you'll be fine for the initial onslaught. Even Emperor is pretty easy if you don't dig yourself into an early military hole.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:18
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Fryhtaning posted:Early game just tends to be more barbaric and senseless with the wars, which is kind of accurate anyway. They're doing it to each other and to city-states just as much as they're doing it to you. Just get your handful of slingers early on, clear barbarians with them for a couple of boosts (including Archery), then upgrade them to archers for cheap and you'll be fine for the initial onslaught. Even Emperor is pretty easy if you don't dig yourself into an early military hole. It's actually the late-game wars that were annoying me. Eventually I was in the Atomic Age and everyone else was an age or two behind, and all of my neighbors just started declaring war one after another. None of them were anywhere close to a threat, but it got annoying, and somehow I accrued a huge warmonger penalty just for defending myself.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:28
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The highlight of the lategame for me was when Brazil, the 3rd civ to do this, sailed a settler over to my continent, plopped a city down on my border, and opened up the whinescreen to complain about my forces near his border. I just launched Themonukes at all his cities and razed the one next to me under a wave of modern armour. 
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Nov 8, 2016 21:02
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I spent the entirety of last game at war with Germany. This game, we declared friendship on Turn 23. 
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Nov 8, 2016 21:14
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nessin posted:A) 30 gold will not rush produce one longbowman, let alone 2 or 3 to really swing it. chucat managed to push six longbows into that city by the time the stack reached the borders. that stack might have taken the city but it would have been a pyrrhic victory and the campaign would have stopped in it's tracks. i would have had no trebs by the end of it either. you're completely wrong in every sense and also keep using civ 5 terminology to discuss civ 4
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Nov 8, 2016 21:16
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Botswana! posted:chucat managed to push six longbows into that city by the time the stack reached the borders. that stack might have taken the city but it would have been a pyrrhic victory and the campaign would have stopped in it's tracks. i would have had no trebs by the end of it either. you're completely wrong in every sense and also keep using civ 5 terminology to discuss civ 4 Would've helped if you had roaded the only tile between you two. 
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Nov 8, 2016 21:43
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Botswana! posted:chucat managed to push six longbows into that city by the time the stack reached the borders. that stack might have taken the city but it would have been a pyrrhic victory and the campaign would have stopped in it's tracks. i would have had no trebs by the end of it either. you're completely wrong in every sense and also keep using civ 5 terminology to discuss civ 4 Look. He knows more about what happened in your own MP game then you bucko. Just accept it and move on.
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Nov 8, 2016 21:47
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Kibbles n Shits posted:Hmm yes tanks vs chariots on a tactical map sounds like a big improvement. I'm sure it'll never get old mopping up the AI's ancient era units in a series of tedious battles. Bring back Civ 1 combat. The purely random chance of a militia unit crushing your battleship makes the AI's obsolete units still a threat, frees up a lot of the map since every combat results in a unit death and makes mobility more important.
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Nov 8, 2016 21:53
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I seem to be missing something in terms of founding religions. I've been in the lead in terms of GP points (and GP per turn) since there were 1/7 religions, and now I'm still in the lead but with 6/7 religions founded. I know Arabia gets the last one by default, but they're not in the game or it'd be 7/7 now. What else can get you a GP so quickly? Started this game in Classical era, for what it's worth.
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Nov 8, 2016 22:12
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Fryhtaning posted:I seem to be missing something in terms of founding religions. I've been in the lead in terms of GP points (and GP per turn) since there were 1/7 religions, and now I'm still in the lead but with 6/7 religions founded. I know Arabia gets the last one by default, but they're not in the game or it'd be 7/7 now. What else can get you a GP so quickly? Started this game in Classical era, for what it's worth. Building Stonehenge?
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Nov 8, 2016 22:12
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If you're planning to build Stonehenge, remember to take the policy that gives you faith in the early game, as the Great Prophet Stonehenge gives you is useless until you get a pantheon!
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Nov 8, 2016 22:18
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The AI has a serious problem with strategy in warfare in addition to tactics. My strategy in most CIV V games on King translated into CIV VI - build a solid infrastructure, maximize production, build a core of 3 ranged / 3 melee / 3 siege units, wait for someone to declare war on me, kill his units when he attacks awfully, then counter-attack and take his entire civilization. At King it's super easy to do so. What I've noticed in 6 is that the AI will get just flustered by city states. Victoria declared war on me and after I killed a few random attackers I noticed almost 20 horsemen running around two of my city states getting picked off, letting me walk into her empire. I've yet to use the army / fleet system but it sounds like it'd up the ante on my 9 base unit strategy. Also having a bonus wildcard policy as Greece is so good. Free faith early on without sacrificing production to get a pantheon, then can rush a religion and transition into some great scientists. I discovered in my latest game that when you pass on a great person a new one doesn't come along, you have to wait until someone claims the one you passed on. 1,000 great engineer points later and I'm still waiting after passing on someone who would give me an extra district space and a eureka for a tech I already had a eureka on... edit: one more design element, building wonders becomes a real hassle with all the space taken up by districts and other wonders. Big Ben shouldn't take up the same space as an entire commercial district. Some wonders should be able to be placed in districts or heck even just a cosmetic element when you have to build it next to a district anyway make it turn the commercial district into a 2-hex area where the wonder isn't absurdly out of proportion with everything and is integrated into a financial area that extends over a larger area. Tom Tucker fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 22:21
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I don't understand ever passing on any great person. Even on higher difficulties I seem to be pumping out like 30+ GPPs of my chosen focus while everyone else is like 2-4 tops. Even if I don't need that GP ability, I'm pumping them out so fast and raising the GPP cost so high that it would take for-loving-ever for another civ to cash it in. So passing on one is like missing out on 2-3.
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Nov 8, 2016 22:40
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nessin posted:A) 30 gold will not rush produce one longbowman, let alone 2 or 3 to really swing it. You seem to have forgotten that slavery was a thing in Civ 4. That city could easily whip out 3 more longbows.
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Nov 8, 2016 22:46
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Fhqwhgads posted:I don't understand ever passing on any great person. Even on higher difficulties I seem to be pumping out like 30+ GPPs of my chosen focus while everyone else is like 2-4 tops. Even if I don't need that GP ability, I'm pumping them out so fast and raising the GPP cost so high that it would take for-loving-ever for another civ to cash it in. So passing on one is like missing out on 2-3. A lesson I learned the hard way. It's pretty much hopeless if you raise the cost for everyone else.
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Nov 8, 2016 22:59
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nessin posted:8 UU Crossbowman, 3 Axeman, a Spearman, and 3 Trebs will definitely be able to tear down a walled city defended by a chariot, longbowman, and archer with little difficulty. Likely going to lose a unit or two, but they'd do it pretty easy whether they actually did or not. Unless the list on the left isn't showing the stack south of the city, but that is what you implied. That's the island that's two tiles North and one tile East of the city in question you dolt. nessin posted:A) 30 gold will not rush produce one longbowman, let alone 2 or 3 to really swing it. 1) I was not in Universal Suffrage, I was in Slavery, this allows me to sacrifice population to finish production of units or structures. I whipped out 3 Longbows in the three cities shown every turn, this produces 6 Longbowmen. 2) Death Scythe had 4 Longbowmen in it at this point, you're looking at Sargasso, which was ferrying Longbows (which I was slaving out) and Archers (which would then cash upgrade to Longbows), by the time he moved forward one tile, I had 7 Longbowmen in Death Scythe. In another turn I could have 10. 3) Why the gently caress would I move out when Longbowmen get massive defensive bonuses when defending inside of a city? What the gently caress are you talking about when you say "shoot at something"?
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Nov 8, 2016 23:00
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Gort posted:Civ 1 had the best solution to this, which would work with a little modification. Civ 1 didn't have unit HP.
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Nov 8, 2016 23:11
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Powercrazy posted:Civ 1 didn't have unit HP. I understood that part to be the "with a little modification" mentioned.
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Nov 8, 2016 23:21
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homullus posted:I understood that part to be the "with a little modification" mentioned. Ah, right.
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Nov 8, 2016 23:31
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How did those people make that giant america map? What's the trick for making maps, huh?
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Nov 8, 2016 23:52
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Chucat posted:That's the island that's two tiles North and one tile East of the city in question you dolt. Ironically, long coastal territory like you had there is actually a classic example of where building up a big stack is the bad. Navies are faster than land troops (even galleys, because you get +1 range with the unit attacking off a boat), and thus allow you to attack unexpectedly out of the shadows and then fork towards multiple different attack points. Even if the defender would have sufficient defensive troops to handle yours in a stack vs stack battle, you can simply maneuver around them and attack everywhere they *aren't* defending. For example, from that same game, here's how I attacked into Botswana's own coastline 40T later:  He had a sizeable defensive "stack of death" at the time I attacked, holed up in his core, which might have been able to wipe mine (or at least deal heavy enough losses to stop my invasion) had I just stupidly dumped all my units on one tile in front of a city and then let his heavy seige lay into me. Instead, I choose to take many cities by splitting my units into many fronts, taking advantage of the fact that he had concentrated most of his defenses elsewhere and thus had only 3-4 defenders per city on his long channel border with me. I lost some units this way, and even more were damaged enough that they weren't in shape to confront his main defenses for some time. So, by the time I finally pushed into his core I had maybe only half the units I might have otherwise been able to field. However, taking cities gave me a tactical advantage by collapsing his culture and forced him to choose between watching me take one city after another or else send his stack out into the open to try to confront me. He choose the latter, and so I was able to engage (and defeat) it with fewer units committed - and with less losses taken! - than a brainless "stack of death" strategy.
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Nov 9, 2016 00:09
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Powercrazy posted:This is a real dumb design decision imo. I assume it was put in as an anti-slingshot mechanism, but what it ends up doing is making new cities completely unable to contribute after the renaissance. 50 turns to build your unique district? Absurd.
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Nov 9, 2016 01:26
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 Turn 17 on Immortal, epic speed 
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Nov 9, 2016 01:41
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Sanctum posted:Do unique districts not increase the cost of future districts? Or do they not increase in cost from other districts, number of techs, maybe both? They are on a different multiplier, and do not count against the district number. Also district multiplier is based on era, not previous districts, afaik. Which is the dumb design decision I was referring to.
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Nov 9, 2016 01:46
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Ugghhh the documentation and descriptions are such poo poo. Colosseum needs flat land next to entertainment district. No, flood plains are apparently not flat land.
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Nov 9, 2016 01:51
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Apparently Egypt has a bunch of exceptions for flood plains for building districts and wonders. Talk about niche, my question is "Why?"
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Nov 9, 2016 02:29
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Powercrazy posted:They are on a different multiplier, and do not count against the district number. Also district multiplier is based on era, not previous districts, afaik. Which is the dumb design decision I was referring to. District cost (production) = 60*(1+9*Larger of [100*Number of Techs/67 OR Number of Civics/50]) * 75% IF you have less of this district than the "average." More here. Also the cost is established when they're placed so place early. You don't have to finish the district immediately. Also unfinished districts still provide their adjacency bonuses.
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Nov 9, 2016 02:48
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