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Lightning Knight posted:It's cute watching white leftists pretend like white people in this country would care about class identity more than race identity if we would just pander to them more. This kind of reductive, ahistorical stupidity is what caused 2016. There is a long history of Democratic engagement of poor white people against banks and concentrated private power. The Democrats occasionally, despite their idiotic politics, tap into it. The Democrats need to rediscover democracy and build a coalition that works. Starting with examining the collective delusion that Hillary Clinton, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, was a good candidate. Set aside that she won the primary vote (she did) and question why the entire Democratic establishment went to bat for such an awful, anachronistic candidate in that primary.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:27
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Cheesus posted:However it's trivial for Trump/Republican Congress to place the blame on their ineffectualness on literally any other target and based on how the electorate accepted all of the falsehoods in this campaign, why would they stop accepting them? There is no convincing the true believers and never has been. This election was won because the media's focus on HRC's imaginary failings caused elements of her base to stay home. I firmly believe the media shaped this election into whatever form it needed to take to benefit their ratings. Trump's presidency won't be spared either.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:27
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Lightning Knight posted:A small fraction of black people and FYGM Hispanics. Your point is? Yeah lol I think someone hear is trying to hard to troll.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:27
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spacetoaster posted:That's good, right? I mean, was anybody really wanting a war with Russia? War with Russia would be terrible, however, that doesn't mean just standing by while they gently caress the Ukraine and annex Crimea.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:29
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Lightning Knight posted:Trump got less votes because traditionally Republican areas didn't turn out as hard for him, but white people abandoned the Obama coalition in droves in Wi, Mi, and Pa and that's why we lost. I think the Obama coalition can be re-formed again, but it will require someone that voters actually like seeing and hearing talk. Clinton is just kind of hated by democratic voters on a level even most Bernie supporters underestimated. Which is saying a lot, but losing 16 million votes entirely compared to 2012 Obama, which was the low point of his administration, is just a horrible failure. It was masked for some time by all the polls being simultaneously wrong about Trump v. Clinton from start to finish by a large margin in Clinton's favor, of course. But the results don't lie, Clinton made much of the Obama coalition sit this one out.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:29
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Crowsbeak posted:No that would be preety bad. Also what do you think Trump could pull a thatcher with the Gerald Kaufman line or something? Whose the SD/LP in this scenario. People on this forum immediately jumped to "Bernie would've won, discounting racist white people was a mistake, we have to pander to racist whites to win, no war but the class war." Running white class identity candidates like Bernie is the logical conclusion to this. Which won't work because white people care more about race than class here.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:29
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Has anyone checked on Sam Wang?
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Nov 9, 2016 16:30
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Lightning Knight posted:People on this forum immediately jumped to "Bernie would've won, discounting racist white people was a mistake, we have to pander to racist whites to win, no war but the class war." Running white class identity candidates like Bernie is the logical conclusion to this. Which won't work because white people care more about race than class here. We're all angry and pointing the fingers won't make us feel better.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:30
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Lightning Knight posted:People on this forum immediately jumped to "Bernie would've won, discounting racist white people was a mistake, we have to pander to racist whites to win, no war but the class war." Running white class identity candidates like Bernie is the logical conclusion to this. Which won't work because white people care more about race than class here. Its not racist to think it was lovely your job got sent overseas and then wonder why you should vote for the wife of the man who was behind the policies that caused that. I will say I am enjoying the bottom tier trolling.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:30
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Crowsbeak posted:If we're in a recession then probably not. I wouldn't underestimate the stupidity of the population1. A recession would be Obama's fault. 1 Source
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Nov 9, 2016 16:30
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Periodiko posted:This kind of reductive, ahistorical stupidity is what caused 2016. There is a long history of Democratic engagement of poor white people against banks and concentrated private power. The Democrats occasionally, despite their idiotic politics, tap into it. The Democrats need to rediscover democracy and build a coalition that works. Starting with examining the collective delusion that Hillary Clinton, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, was a good candidate. Set aside that she won the primary vote (she did) and question why the entire Democratic establishment went to bat for such an awful, anachronistic candidate in that primary. Unions failed because the neoliberal business class appealed to white racism so they'd vote against their class interests but in their race interests. What makes you think that is different now?
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Nov 9, 2016 16:30
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Space Jam marathon posted:I'd say there's a pretty good chance John Oliver or similar journalist does a piece on it. Wouldn't help. Trump whined about the GOP primaries being rigged against him too, at least until he won. Voters are simply significantly less likely to feel that an election was fair and unbiased if their candidate lost. People will complain no matter what the DNC does.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:31
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Crowsbeak posted:Its not racist to think it was lovely your job got sent overseas and then wonder why you should vote for the wife of the man who was behind the policies that caused that. I will say I am enjoying the bottom tier trolling. You're such a jackass. No it's not racist to be mad about being poor, it's racist to blame Mexicans and Chinese people instead of rich white people who actually did it. Guess which option we just voted for, smart one.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:32
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Iron Lung posted:Has anyone checked on Sam Wang? With all the polls being purestrain trash (even the R leaners predicted a Clinton win easily) there's not much a model using... polls... can even do.  Don't know if he picked out the kind of bug to eat or not. 
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Nov 9, 2016 16:31
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I mean if white people really cared about class why are have they been electing Republicans to like every position in the country for three decades despite them running on even more gently caress the middle class and poor people platforms?
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Nov 9, 2016 16:32
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corn in the bible posted:you know i'm like 90% sure people would have been perfectly happy here if clinton won the ec and lost the popular vote Well they'd be happierER but there'd be a lot of "what the gently caress, seriously?"
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Nov 9, 2016 16:31
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Iron Lung posted:Has anyone checked on Sam Wang? 
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Nov 9, 2016 16:33
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we know that mainstream news had a big part in this, blowing up that email nonsense. I want to see just how much horseshit on Facebook impacted this. Cable news viewership pales in comparison to Facebook users. Who cares about fact checking when some kids in Estonia can just write some bullshit and get thirty million people to see it?
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Nov 9, 2016 16:33
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mintskoal posted:I wouldn't underestimate the stupidity of the population1. A recession would be Obama's fault. Yeah besides showing the results what were you trying to prove? The GOP having a second crash under its watch would get blamed on it. Lightning Knight posted:Unions failed because the neoliberal business class appealed to white racism so they'd vote against their class interests but in their race interests. What makes you think that is different now? Because Obama showed it was different, you know until a neoliberal who alot of workers saw as the image of their fall was nominated like Hillary. Troll.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:33
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Radish posted:I mean if white people really cared about class why are have they been electing Republicans to like every position in the country for three decades despite them running on even more gently caress the middle class and poor people platforms? I mean white people in super ultra white only states like Vermont do, that's why they have nice things. White people only consistently vote to burn it all down when they have to share.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:33
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Deified Data posted:I firmly believe the media shaped this election into whatever form it needed to take to benefit their ratings. Trump's presidency won't be spared either.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:34
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Pakled posted:They weren't as decisive as the white people who couldn't care enough to get out and vote against Trump's brand of white nationalism. Right, but what was their reasoning? Has anyone done any interviews? It wasn't insignificant, how did the Democrats lose them? Lightning Knight posted:A small fraction of black people and FYGM Hispanics. Your point is? I wasn't making a point. I asked a question.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:36
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Lightning Knight posted:People on this forum immediately jumped to "Bernie would've won, discounting racist white people was a mistake, we have to pander to racist whites to win, no war but the class war." Running white class identity candidates like Bernie is the logical conclusion to this. Which won't work because white people care more about race than class here.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:37
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Kurt Eichenwald probably needs to leave the country.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:36
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Gorelab posted:War with Russia would be terrible, however, that doesn't mean just standing by while they gently caress the Ukraine and annex Crimea. And I'm very curious about how the Ukraine situation will be handled considering it personally affects me.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:38
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Lightning Knight posted:Unions failed because the neoliberal business class appealed to white racism so they'd vote against their class interests but in their race interests. What makes you think that is different now? Democrats started abandoning unions before they failed, so how would you even tell? And union members statistically have more progressive views on race than non-union members. Why are you insistent on pitting the white working class against minorities like this? Why are we pretending a candidate who is basically the embodiment of Democratic contempt for white working class voters (from their perspective) didn't have an impact on their mobilization? Why were these same voters more enthusiastic for Obama than Clinton? Periodiko fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 9, 2016 |
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Nov 9, 2016 16:37
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spacetoaster posted:Right, but what was their reasoning? Has anyone done any interviews? Ah. "Hispanics" isn't a useful designation because you're talking about dozens of different nationalities who are mostly racist against each other and black or Asian people, and have a strong tradition of racial and class privilege in their own nations. Many Hispanic people just want to integrate and become part of the white majority, European immigrant style. Also Cubans. There's your 30% (I'm Hispanic.  )Periodiko posted:Democrats started abandoning unions before they failed, so how would you even tell? And union members statistically have more progressive views on race than non-union members. Why are you insistent on pitting the white working class against minorities like this? Why are we pretending a candidate who is basically the embodiment of Democratic contempt for white working class voters (from their perspective) didn't have an impact on their mobilization? Lmao go gently caress yourself. I am not advocating we pit white working class people against minorities. White working class people hate immigrants and that's what they voted for this election. How do you pander to them without hating immigrants and dismantling international trade (I.e. The basis of the world economy)?
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Nov 9, 2016 16:40
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halwain posted:Is calexit even a possibility? (European here, im just curious) Five years ago I'd have said no way. Two years ago I'd have said, "Maybe in a couple of decades when things get really dire." Now? I'd treat it seriously. There's real money that's got an interest in a free California, and a real disconnect between the way Californians want to run government affairs and the way the rest of the country wants to do things. If the movement gets steam up fast and moves quickly, they could be ready in a year to present a resolution for peaceful exit. What happened after that would be Interesting Times. I don't think there'd be a Bear Flag Republic, but weirder things have happened. I wouldn't rule out an armed conflict over it before 2020.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:39
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Lightning Knight posted:People on this forum immediately jumped to "Bernie would've won, discounting racist white people was a mistake, we have to pander to racist whites to win, no war but the class war." Running white class identity candidates like Bernie is the logical conclusion to this. Which won't work because white people care more about race than class here. One thing that bothers me is the assumption that minorities respond better to racial politics and coalition-building compared to class politics. How do we know that to be the case? e: Also, for what it's worth, I'm glad to see you're still posting. Kilroy fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Nov 9, 2016 |
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Nov 9, 2016 16:40
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The consensus in my household is that Biden would have won.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:42
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You keep asking why Hillary couldn't meet Obama's numbers as if Hillary is unique in this scenario, not Obama. Obama is the greatest campaigner in a generation, came in at a time of extreme hardship and change, and ran on a uniquely successful outsider campaign. Of course Hillary couldn't reproduce that. Bernie wouldn't have been able to either.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:42
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Radish posted:I mean if white people really cared about class why are have they been electing Republicans to like every position in the country for three decades despite them running on even more gently caress the middle class and poor people platforms? lol yeah i wonder why the white working class wouldnt vote for the other neoliberals instead
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Nov 9, 2016 16:42
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FizFashizzle posted:we know that mainstream news had a big part in this, blowing up that email nonsense. Here's a more interesting question: why did institutions like the media lose the trust of so many people in the first place. Be careful, you have to treat the public as human beings to find an answer.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:44
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Kilroy posted:So what coalition can the left cobble together if it isn't on class lines nor on racial lines? Or should we just stick with racial politics in spite of this election? Look at how poorly minorities respond to Bernie, a candidate who dismisses BLM and has advocated for keeping Mexican immigrants out in the past. If the Dems run on that platform minorities start abandoning them in droves and white working class people will stifle all race issues with "no war but the class war." Racism is still very real and minorities still experience uniquely racial problems. You can't fix that with just economic policy.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:43
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Are there any good statistical post-mortem analyses that break down the catastrophic electoral implosion that happened yesterday? I assume they've got to be coming soon if there aren't any yet.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:45
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John_A_Tallon posted:Five years ago I'd have said no way. Two years ago I'd have said, "Maybe in a couple of decades when things get really dire." I must move to the west coast. Seriously, what the gently caress do we do? I'm so worried about my friends and family who are not straight white people. I'm glad to see an overwhelming response from people that is mostly "do good, love your family, work with your community" etc, but I dont think that's going to be enough to get people safely through the next many years.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:46
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Lightning Knight posted:You're such a jackass. No it's not racist to be mad about being poor, it's racist to blame Mexicans and Chinese people instead of rich white people who actually did it. Guess which option we just voted for, smart one. You, overall, voted for the only option that acknowledged the issue exists and is worth fixing. That Trump's solution is unrealistic bullshit might have mattered if the media did it's job and actually informed people. But the media didn't, so as far as those voters know it'll all be good.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:46
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Lightning Knight posted:You keep asking why Hillary couldn't meet Obama's numbers as if Hillary is unique in this scenario, not Obama. Obama is the greatest campaigner in a generation, came in at a time of extreme hardship and change, and ran on a uniquely successful outsider campaign. Of course Hillary couldn't reproduce that. Bernie wouldn't have been able to either. This is the same logic that concluded Trump couldn't mobilize white voters. Obama was a great candidate, but he also had a great message that resonated broadly. Instead, we nominated a bad candidate with a bad message, and we're blaming dehumanized masses for the failure.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:46
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Lightning Knight posted:People on this forum immediately jumped to "Bernie would've won, discounting racist white people was a mistake, we have to pander to racist whites to win, no war but the class war." Running white class identity candidates like Bernie is the logical conclusion to this. Which won't work because white people care more about race than class here. I agree. Jumping to "Bernie would have won" is a mistake. Joe Biden would have won.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:47
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Marijuana Nihilist posted:lol yeah i wonder why the white working class wouldnt vote for the other neoliberals instead This would make sense if they were just staying home but they are clearly supporting one party over the other for something other than economics.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:48
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