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Mr Interweb posted:Where the hell is that from? I've never seen such positive numbers on the state of the economy. Ever. They're from here.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:45
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amaranthine posted:The numbers are only positive for Democrats, largely because they have embraced Obama as the election has gone on. Things aren't so peachy economically for the working class.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:46
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Things aren't so peachy economically for the working class. I think this kinda ties into the white college educated demographic too. Sure are a lot of people in that group who are unemployed and massively indebted.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:47
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Not vote correctly? Child please.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:47
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amaranthine posted:The numbers are only positive for Democrats, largely because they have embraced Obama as the election has gone on. So it's only a poll of democrats? That makes more sense. Though I don't see what that has to do with arguing about Trump voters.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:48
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D.Ork Bimboolean posted:Hillary raised and spent more than twice as much money as Trump. Trump is one of the least likeable, least experienced, and absurd candidates get through party primaries let alone run for office, let alone WIN that office. I think the campaign failed. But white people made a conscious decision that they didn't think a candidate running on a platform of racial hatred was worth getting out to vote against. That's on them. Own that. Also the majority of the country did vote for the establishment insider. She lost to the EC, not to Trump.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:49
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:People who supported and voted for Clinton aren't massive pricks. I never claimed they were. They simply didn't vote correctly. The party that nominated the best economic populist candidate would have won this election. We're kind of going in circles, but you still haven't delineated why Bernie articulating a populist economic message would have worked when Trump was offering a populist economic message juiced by racial grievance and an implicit promise to return white-dominated culture. So it's just as likely Bernie would have gotten rat-hosed by it too.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:48
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Every single person who voted for Trump thought that voting for an openly white supremacist, misogynist, transphobic, and homophobic administration was okay. Even if that's not why they voted for him, they still thought it was okay to subject anyone who is not a white, straight, cisgendered male to 4+ years of terror. The election of Donald Trump is entirely on his voters, and I'm not going to blame any Democrat who stood against his hate.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:49
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Things aren't so peachy economically for the working class. Believe me, I know. My (extended) family owns a farm in ultra-rural Ohio, and I drive straight through the heart of meth country to get there. A whole lot of people who claim it was "irrational" for these voters to pick Trump over a candidate that, to them, was the figurehead of the status quo don't realize how hosed some of these places are. Doesn't mean they're not racists, as they very well may be (and probably are), but they have fundamentally unlivable lives and only one candidate genuinely acted like he gave a gently caress about them. (He doesn't, but sometimes, the decency to put in the effort to lie is all that matters.)
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Nov 10, 2016 08:52
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Two things : 1) Will pundits pick up on the fact that dems lost because of low turnout (rather than a Trump wave) or is this something we need to shout about? 2) Let's shut down his inauguration.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:52
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amaranthine posted:Believe me, I know. My (extended) family owns a farm in ultra-rural Ohio, and I drive straight through the heart of meth country to get there. Hillary did make speeches and have platform policy - real policy! - to help them. What the argument comes down to then is a tantrum that she didn't physically campaign enough in those states, which is childish. "Man if Hillary had just spent more time here I would've voted against the fascist." I really don't think Bernie would've won. Economic populism without racism versus economic populism with racism will lose every time in this country.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:54
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ErIog posted:We're kind of going in circles, but you still haven't delineated why Bernie articulating a populist economic message would have worked when Trump was offering a populist economic message juiced by racial grievance and an implicit promise to return white-dominated culture. Most interesting thing was that a lot of the counties in poor white area of the battle ground state went for Trump while they also went for Obama during the earlier elections. DNC really should've picked Bernie instead.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:57
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I'm not saying this as a told you so, but Bernie would have won. 100k votes in the rust belt isn't an insane margin. Every 3rd Democrat I called in PA had an unsolicited rant about Clinton.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:57
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Fansy posted:I wonder how many stayed home because the media and their infallible analytics predicted a win probably not as many as who stayed home because the clinton campaign had zero presence outside cities Fansy posted:I'm not saying this as a told you so, but Bernie would have won. 100k votes in the rust belt isn't an insane margin. the dnc would've sabotaged a sanders campaign in the general
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Nov 10, 2016 08:59
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Lightning Knight posted:Hillary did make speeches and have platform policy - real policy! - to help them. People don't like Clinton, full stop, end of story. Anyone else without her baggage would have done better. It doesn't matter if any of it is true/deserved or not. You don't put up the scandal plagued candidate for president that goes back 30+ years.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:01
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Or maybe the "Hillary is so awful..." poo poo is just white voters giving themselves permission to vote for ethno-fascism. Yeah, the "scandal-plagued Clinton" where GOP has tried their loving damnedest and was funded by a rich dude who literally had a vendetta against the Clintons and were never able to find any wrongdoing
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Nov 10, 2016 09:03
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ErIog posted:We're kind of going in circles, but you still haven't delineated why Bernie articulating a populist economic message would have worked when Trump was offering a populist economic message juiced by racial grievance and an implicit promise to return white-dominated culture. Hillary didn't appeal at all the rural whites over gun issues or rust belt blue collar whites over economic issues. A chunk of this is not her fault but instead mostly her base's fault, as she did in fact co-opt a lot of bernie stances after the primaries and it was mostly her vocal base that ignored that aspect of the election, but the end story is if you look at the primary results and compare em against the election the reality is hillary won the primary off the decidedly republican states and ended up losing the blue collar vote in important swing states that bernie did win. However you wanna explain the result the obvious conclusion is we shot ourselves in the foot.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:04
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Sylink posted:People don't like Clinton, full stop, end of story. Anyone else without her baggage would have done better. It doesn't matter if any of it is true/deserved or not. So white voters threw a tantrum because they don't like Hillary and voted for Trump, a literal fascist. Like lmao you guys are really self righteous about gently caress Hillary but that's your argument. Absolve white voters for staying home or choosing the white supremacist because they wanted to  about Hillary.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:05
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Lightning Knight posted:Hillary did make speeches and have platform policy - real policy! - to help them. A vanishingly small portion of "real america" (used here to refer to anybody who doesn't consume political media of their own choice) gives a gently caress about policy positions. Nobody goes to hillaryclinton.com or whatever and carefully browses through her assorted drafts and stands before making a rational decision about who will have the most positive impact on their lives. They catch a few soundbites, they hear the slogans, they hear whatever their neighbors are talking about, and they go from there. The biggest problem with her campaign, in the eyes of the poor white folks, is that she responded to "let's make america great again" not with "yeah, let's do that, but maybe without being assholes to minorities" but with "nah america's already great". Everything is hosed for these people. Completely hosed. There are vast swathes of the American countryside that are little more than grassier ghettos. You cannot win these people by saying that you're gonna be basically the same, but with a few minor tweaks. You cannot be the arbiter of The Establishment, and no amount of saying "but she's a woman" is gonna make her not be that. I'm not saying Sanders would have won - it's a hypothesis that nobody can prove, really. I think he probably would have been much better in the Rust Belt, though. Certainly worse in VA/NC/FL. Whether that would have turned out better overall is anyone's guess. Right now, I'm just hoping the accelerationists were right.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:04
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Alec Bald Snatch posted:the dnc would've sabotaged a sanders campaign in the general I highly doubt the DNC would willingly concede all three elected bodies to the GOP for the next 4 years just because of Bernie.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:04
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Yeah, Indiana went Bernie in the primary, I did my part. By the time I actually come to terms with this it'll be inauguration time and start all over again. Life has just become an 80's movie, and I just had a baby girl 5 months ago. That's the hardest part about this I think. What a world she is gonna grow up in, me and the wife were planning on having another and now we both are wondering if we shouldn't.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:05
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Lightning Knight posted:So white voters threw a tantrum because they don't like Hillary and voted for Trump, a literal fascist. Listen man. These are delicate wilting flowers who had their feel feels hurt by  . They voted to make America a safe space for themselves. I thought leftists liked safe spaces?amaranthine posted:A vanishingly small portion of "real america" (used here to refer to anybody who doesn't consume political media of their own choice) gives a gently caress about policy positions. If nobody cares about policy then ethno-fascism wins every single time because it's a hell of a drug for white voters who feel stressed. So unless Bernie's gonna get on board with the anti-feminists and the rest of the alt right and dog whistle his way into the White House he loses the same way she did. Everyone would have been saying, "Of course a SOCIALIST lost to Donald Trump. This is  "
ErIog fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 09:06
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dp'ed myself, shameful
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Nov 10, 2016 09:06
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Lightning Knight posted:So white voters threw a tantrum because they don't like Hillary and voted for Trump, a literal fascist. I voted Hillary, but she was always a poo poo tier candidate. If you don't want people to stay home, convince them not to. Fascism ultimately isn't going to affect whites so you need to use something else, they don't care about your attempt to guilt them.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:08
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amaranthine posted:A vanishingly small portion of "real america" (used here to refer to anybody who doesn't consume political media of their own choice) gives a gently caress about policy positions. Nobody goes to hillaryclinton.com or whatever and carefully browses through her assorted drafts and stands before making a rational decision about who will have the most positive impact on their lives. They catch a few soundbites, they hear the slogans, they hear whatever their neighbors are talking about, and they go from there. I strongly disagree that there's any message the Democrats could've run that would've resonated with this group. "Make America Great Again" can't be divorced from its racist implications. It's "Make America Great Again for White People." Economic populism versus economic populism with racism will not win the democrats white voters.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:08
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PantherWill posted:So it'd wind up being like McConnell AFB when I was stationed there, where clinic, dental, and pharmacy stuff are handled on-base while the off-base visits get handled through Tricare? Kinda sorta. It was made to sound more like "here's x dollars per month for this area, find you own doc/plan". Basically BAH for healthcare (better not use it all up!).
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Nov 10, 2016 09:07
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Infidel Castro posted:I highly doubt the DNC would willingly concede all three elected bodies to the GOP for the next 4 years just because of Bernie. Yeah they probably would have done about as well as they did with Clinton.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:08
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Sylink posted:I voted Hillary, but she was always a poo poo tier candidate. If you don't want people to stay home, convince them not to. Fascism ultimately isn't going to affect whites so you need to use something else, they don't care about your attempt to guilt them. Frankly then they deserve what they get. Your delusional if you think Trump won't make life hell for non-rich white people. They're in for a real rude loving awakening.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:09
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Lightning Knight posted:So white voters threw a tantrum because they don't like Hillary and voted for Trump, a literal fascist. I dunno about you but I voted for a Hispanic women in a state that was p much guaranteed (and did end up going) for Hillary regardless.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:08
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I'm new to accelerationism ideology. Can an expert tell me how long it normally takes for the revolution to kick in
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Nov 10, 2016 09:08
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Hey for anyone interested I made a discord to chat and talk on with others at https://discord.gg/BMP5U which I am still getting up to speed on. join me and chat and talk in real time if you want.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:10
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ArbitraryC posted:I dunno about you but I voted for a Hispanic women in a state that was p much guaranteed (and did end up going) for Hillary regardless. I voted Hillary in Wisconsin. 
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Nov 10, 2016 09:10
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Lightning Knight posted:I strongly disagree that there's any message the Democrats could've run that would've resonated with this group. "Make America Great Again" can't be divorced from its racist implications. It's "Make America Great Again for White People." So here is my disagreement. There isn't a way to do it now, but that's what the left has to do. They have to tie all this poo poo together so that we can have an emotionally compelling journey for white idiots that somehow doesn't scare them while being true and authentic to our core values and communities.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:11
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Lightning Knight posted:Frankly then they deserve what they get. Your delusional if you think Trump won't make life hell for non-rich white people. They're in for a real rude loving awakening. I think you over-estimate what he cares about, which is probably nothing. The GOP is still the exact same people in office, no Tea Party revolution occurred in the legislature. They will gently caress things up for sure, but there aren't going to be death squads. It may be grift at an unprecedented scale, though.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:12
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Lightning Knight posted:I voted Hillary in Wisconsin.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:13
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Lightning Knight posted:I voted Hillary in Wisconsin. I think you're missing my point here. I disliked hillary but was still very much pro both social and economic progressiveness. Trump got less votes than romney, it's not about people voting for trump it's clinton being such a garbage candidate no one wanted to vote for her. That's what happened this election, you should probably stop blaming everyone else for not sucking it up in the name of the greater good and admit trump largely won because of how the democrats ran this election. The it's her turn bullshit is why we have trump, we did this to ourselves and if we're gonna climb back up out of this hole we dug step 1 is admitting that.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:14
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Trabisnikof posted:So here is my disagreement. There isn't a way to do it now, but that's what the left has to do. Call me when you figure out how to get white labor to pick class over race. Sylink posted:I think you over-estimate what he cares about, which is probably nothing. The GOP is still the exact same people in office, no Tea Party revolution occurred in the legislature. They will gently caress things up for sure, but there aren't going to be death squads. I'm not holding my breath for him not to do most of what he wanted to. Who is gonna stop him? I'm scared my dad and uncle would get deported. They're legal citizens but they were born in Mexico. That isn't an irrational fear. That is the country white people voted for. Casimir Radon posted:What the gently caress happened to your state? I'm going to do my best to stay on the Minnesota side of the line for a good long while after this. We've been a poo poo tier state since we elected Walker. Now the Dems just know we can't be relied on for poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:15
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amaranthine posted:A vanishingly small portion of "real america" (used here to refer to anybody who doesn't consume political media of their own choice) gives a gently caress about policy positions. Nobody goes to hillaryclinton.com or whatever and carefully browses through her assorted drafts and stands before making a rational decision about who will have the most positive impact on their lives. They catch a few soundbites, they hear the slogans, they hear whatever their neighbors are talking about, and they go from there.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:15
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ErIog posted:If nobody cares about policy then ethno-fascism wins every single time because it's a hell of a drug for white voters who feel stressed. So unless Bernie's gonna get on board with the anti-feminists and the rest of the alt right and dog whistle his way into the White House he loses the same way she did. This is very possible! It is extremely possible that white voters lash out vindictively because they are living lovely lives, even if the choices are "person that improves your life" vs "person that improves your life but is also racist". That's not the offer that they thought was given to them. The offer, in their eyes, was "this racist wants to make your lives better" vs. "this person wants to have an inclusive america where you still sell the shingles on your roof for meth". I do not know how they would have voted in a Sanders/Trump matchup. I feel fairly confident that the margins would have been smaller in rural areas. I do not know if the margins would also have been smaller in urban areas or, if nothing else, that turnout would have been lower there (it certainly seems feasible). I didn't enter this thread to defend Sanders, and I did vote for Hillary in my home state of Ohio, and I am not one of those people who still holds a grudge about the primary. I just think that, on a fundamental level, this campaign had a disastrous message for the white working class and they paid the price for it.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:17
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ArbitraryC posted:I think you're missing my point here. I disliked hillary but was still very much pro both social and economic progressiveness. Trump got less votes than romney, it's not about people voting for trump it's clinton being such a garbage candidate no one wanted to vote for her. That's what happened this election, you should probably stop blaming everyone else for not sucking it up in the name of the greater good and admit trump largely won because of how the democrats ran this election. The it's her turn bullshit is why we have trump, we did this to ourselves and if we're gonna climb back up out of this hole we dug step 1 is admitting that. Clinton was a bad candidate who was still better than Trump. White people didn't care enough about minorities to vote against him. Why do they deserve absolution. White voters being poo poo isn't mutually exclusive with Clinton being bad or the DNC being bad.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:16
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