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steinrokkan posted:Let's go one step further - if you put forward a candidate so inept she makes a racist enabler look good in comparison, and causes people to vote for racist enabling, you are also a racist enabler. Or in other words, Hillary is von Papen to Trump's Hitler.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:56
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Blowdryer posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/ShaunKing People in this thread and the other one who keep arguing racism is no biggie and Trump isn't a racist and his supporters aren't racist they're just sad white people who feel hurt because those elitist libs just keep calling them racist really need to read this. I mean, they probably won't, but they need to.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:57
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Not a Step posted:The National DNC abandoned Wisconsin unions during their recall battle with Scott Walker while the national RNC pumped millions into his campaign. The Democrats at the national level threw unions under the bus and let them rot, and everyone in the Rust Belt took notice. The Democrats absolutely earned the Rust Belt defection for being spineless shits. Yeah this is why its time for the left to take over, and put our efforts into all parts of the working class. They all want jobs, and they all want power in their jobs. Support Childcare like Bernie did and when called a socialist wear the label with pride. Its when you flinch that you tell the media there is something wrong with you. We can also use the the fact that all the poor are targeted horribly by the police to our advantage. Also rail against the makers of opiates as having poisoned them. Also Trump is racist? Guess what that unforonatley doesn't get people to vote, their natural interest does.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:57
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sumie posted:While Hillary and her campaign are clearly at fault and inept to an extent, let's not forget how effective exactly the republican propaganda campaign was against her that had for last two decades surrounded her with manufactured outrage, controversy and conspiracy theories. I'm starting to think that maybe Clinton's high unfavorable rating really is an issue
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Nov 10, 2016 13:58
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feedmegin posted:Using computers to gauge where to spend effort isn't a bad idea and is something politicians have been using since computers became a thing. The trouble is there's a truism in computing, 'Garbage In, Garbage Out' - the program can be as clever as you like but if you don't feed it reality its output won't reflect reality either. The Clinton campaign was getting the same flawed raw info that the pollsters did because a whole ton of people were willing to vote Trump but not willing to tell anyone they were going to do so. Do we have any evidence that there was a large number of hidden trump voters?
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Nov 10, 2016 13:57
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sumie posted:While Hillary and her campaign are clearly at fault and inept to an extent, let's not forget how effective exactly the republican propaganda campaign was against her that had for last two decades surrounded her with manufactured outrage, controversy and conspiracy theories. While I agree they really should have taken that into account (and people pointed it out at the time but were shouted down) that we all knew this was going to be an issue so even if it wasn't fair it should be respected. Rated PG-34 posted:Do we have any evidence that there was a large number of hidden trump voters? Yeah I think it's more likely they assumed a lot of Obama voters were definitely coming back and then realized way too late it wasn't the case. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 13:59
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feedmegin posted:Using computers to gauge where to spend effort isn't a bad idea and is something politicians have been using since computers became a thing. The trouble is there's a truism in computing, 'Garbage In, Garbage Out' - the program can be as clever as you like but if you don't feed it reality its output won't reflect reality either. The Clinton campaign was getting the same flawed raw info that the pollsters did because a whole ton of people were willing to vote Trump but not willing to tell anyone they were going to do so. Trump got less votes than Romney though. Isn't it more that a bunch of people were willing to vote Democrat but ended up not doing so?
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Nov 10, 2016 13:58
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Non Serviam posted:Despite not being a Trump supporter, I'm really enjoying watching liberals squirm about how OK so in 2 years time when Trump has hosed the economy, you will be back here to blame "liberals" for not persuading people to vote for them. But you'll be innocent - you voted Johnson, right? No blood on your hands.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:00
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Guy Goodbody posted:I'm starting to think that maybe Clinton's high unfavorable rating really is an issue It clearly was, and they banked on her being less unfavourable than Trump, but I guess they greatly misjudged the malaise and apathy of democratic voters when it came to her when it came to the day that mattered.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:00
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kartikeya posted:People in this thread and the other one who keep arguing racism is no biggie and Trump isn't a racist and his supporters aren't racist they're just sad white people who feel hurt because those elitist libs just keep calling them racist really need to read this. I mean, they probably won't, but they need to. I don't think anyone has said that there are no racist Trump supporters or that racism wasn't a factor in Trump's victory. The problem is people throwing up their hands and saying 100% of all Trump supporters are racist to the point that no logic or emotion could sway them ever.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:00
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BarbarianElephant posted:OK so in 2 years time when Trump has hosed the economy, you will be back here to blame "liberals" for not persuading people to vote for them. But you'll be innocent - you voted Johnson, right? No blood on your hands. I believe Non serviam is not American.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:02
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Chrom1um posted:Does this sentiment apply to every other candidate in either primary as well? If so, carry on.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:03
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sumie posted:It clearly was, and they banked on her being less unfavourable than Trump, but I guess they greatly misjudged the malaise and apathy of democratic voters when it came to her when it came to the day that mattered. I mean the malaise was there to see. They've been losing states and congress even while Obama was winning elections. Anyone could see the Democrats as a brand was not popular, it was Obama himself that people liked. The DNC deluded themselves because they didn't want to appeal to the types of people they felt they owned the votes of.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:04
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feedmegin posted:Using computers to gauge where to spend effort isn't a bad idea and is something politicians have been using since computers became a thing. The trouble is there's a truism in computing, 'Garbage In, Garbage Out' - the program can be as clever as you like but if you don't feed it reality its output won't reflect reality either. The Clinton campaign was getting the same flawed raw info that the pollsters did because a whole ton of people were willing to vote Trump but not willing to tell anyone they were going to do so. If only Hillary had ready access to two successful Democratic Presidents who could have helped her stage her ground game instead of relying entirely on a secretive algorithm accessible only by her top advisors. Its pretty much a microcosm of Hillary's bad decisions.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:07
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steinrokkan posted:Let's go one step further - if you put forward a candidate so inept she makes a racist enabler look good in comparison, and causes people to vote for racist enabling, you are also a racist enabler. Yeah, responsibility is shared. The degree is not the same, though. steinrokkan posted:It's a post material concern for the people who don't believe it concerns them. Otherwise, yes, those objectives are not in any sort of competition, but Democrats hosed up in selling their supposed goals in to each particular demographic in terms that pertain to them. That's all this has been about. Instead of trying to explain to a trailer park white trash from some tumbleweed town why he should care for inner city problems that he doesn't give a poo poo about, tell him how you are going to get his family into new jobs and get them a decent place to live. I agree with your first paragraph, but not with the second one. Apologies if I misrepresent your point, but "We'll really focus on solving social issues (racism, sexism, etc.) when all people feel economically safe enough" seems quite self-contradictory, and it postpones the solving of racial and gender issues to a nebulous future. All these issues must be addressed in the present. I don't believe that we need a consensus. We need a majority - the largest will be the best - but we only need a majority. And I'll wager that America actually has one! Not a Step posted:The National DNC abandoned Wisconsin unions during their recall battle with Scott Walker while the national RNC pumped millions into his campaign. The Democrats at the national level threw unions under the bus and let them rot, and everyone in the Rust Belt took notice. The Democrats absolutely earned the Rust Belt defection for being spineless shits. Yeah that's absolutely true.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:07
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't think anyone has said that there are no racist Trump supporters or that racism wasn't a factor in Trump's victory. The problem is people throwing up their hands and saying 100% of all Trump supporters are racist to the point that no logic or emotion could sway them ever. It's not on PoC, who largely make up the democrat party, to convince white people to not be racist. We can't win them over, period. That's up to white people to either start changing themselves or their communities. As this past election showed most white americans currently sit in two camps: voting for pro-white supremacy or being so apathetic about it all that they stay at home, tacitly supporting white supremacy. I'm not saying these people can't be won over, I'm just saying PoC aren't the ones to do it. Democrats are getting less and less white. How do you expect an increasingly nonwhite party to appeal to people who were galvanized by pro-white appeals?
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Nov 10, 2016 14:07
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Not a Step posted:If only Hillary had ready access to two successful Democratic Presidents who could have helped her stage her ground game instead of relying entirely on a secretive algorithm accessible only by her top advisors. I thought that she had learned from her mistakes in the past not to surround herself with ineffectual yes-men but apparently she didn't.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:08
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So it looks like net neutrality will also be dead.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:10
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Crowsbeak posted:Also Trump is racist? Guess what that unforonatley doesn't get people to vote, their natural interest does. It absolutely does, though. Many people were motivated to vote against him. I'd even argue that a lot of people who voted for Clinton actually voted against racism and sexism and their orange incarnation. It just wasn't enough.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:10
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Radish posted:I thought that she had learned from her mistakes in the past not to surround herself with ineffectual yes-men but apparently she didn't.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:12
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Deadulus posted:So it looks like net neutrality will also be dead. A lot of people are going to be wondering why everything seems to suck real bad suddenly in the next few years while watching a news story about how hilarious President Trump got a pie thrown at him (and then the pie thrower is waterboarded by his police but that isn't mentioned). Bad Decision Dino posted:Why would you want to resort to yes-men when you can build a supercomputer to do that. Man the DNC can't even stop this job killing automation in their own house.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:11
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Guy Goodbody posted:I'm starting to think that maybe Clinton's high unfavorable rating really is an issue If only there had been some way to know in advance that she was going to be an historically unliked candidate so maybe she didn't run... Hmmm. Nope I guess it was her turn! And lol at the idiots who voted for her in the primary knowing full well she was damaged goods from the start but hoping it wouldn't matter
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Nov 10, 2016 14:12
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Trump won because an ancient Egyptian frog God endorsed him, imho ditch Moloch and get a better God.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:12
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't think anyone has said that there are no racist Trump supporters or that racism wasn't a factor in Trump's victory. The problem is people throwing up their hands and saying 100% of all Trump supporters are racist to the point that no logic or emotion could sway them ever. A number of people have said exactly that over the past day, actually (I don't know about this thread, but definitely the election thread). Meanwhile, I haven't seen anyone say that racist Trump supporters could never possibly be swayed, but I have seen people pointing out how lovely it is to talk about how minorities should go make friends with them now. I've also seen a number of posters on this forum blaming every single minority for Trump's win (black people, latinos, women, LGBTQ, general 'identity politics), or saying they should have voted for Bernie and not criticized him. There was also someone in the other thread denying that Trump or his policies were racist (that gem also was like 'yay native american genocide'). I'm not saying it's the only factor and I don't think many, if any posters are doing that, but I'm certainly pushing the gently caress back on this 'no it's just economic anxiety stop talking about racism' nonsense.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:13
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Blowdryer posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/ShaunKing Ever since that McCain supporter carved a backwards B into their face, I've become tremendously leery of stories that could end with 'and then everyone
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Nov 10, 2016 14:13
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:It's not on PoC ... to convince white people to not be racist.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:15
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:It's not on PoC, who largely make up the democrat party, to convince white people to not be racist. Isn't it, though? Isn't it the role of activists of color to educate white people on people's of color lives? If you're going to argue that it's not fair that people of color have to fight for their rights, and their rights shouldn't be contingent explaining to midwesterners that Escape From New York isn't an actual depiction of inner city life, yeah, absolutely. It sucks that equal rights aren't guaranteed, and it sucks that they have to be fought for. But just because it sucks doesn't mean you can throw your hands up and walk away
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Nov 10, 2016 14:17
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:It's not on PoC, who largely make up the democrat party, to convince white people to not be racist. We can't win them over, period. That's up to white people to either start changing themselves or their communities. As this past election showed most white americans currently sit in two camps: voting for pro-white supremacy or being so apathetic about it all that they stay at home, tacitly supporting white supremacy. You're a minority. Its your job to build a coalition if you want to get anything done. Thats work you have to do. Otherwise enjoy your irrelevancy. White people don't need minorities to do whatever they want. The inverse is not true.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:17
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if your position is "it's not my job to educate you about why supporting a racist is bad" you are correct, and you also helped elect president trump and share responsibility for your current predicament. the person whose job it is to stop racist policies is the person who will be hurt by this policies. expecting someone else to do it is a stupid, dangerous gamble. if your position is "a candidate's bigotry should be enough to disqualify them in the eyes of the voters" then you have vaulted the is/ought gap and you are completely unequipped to deal with the reality that it is not enough to disqualify them. either re-evaluate your position or shut up and get out of the way while people with a grown-up understanding of politics try to fix the mess you made.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:18
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Why are issues of race and class mutually exclusive Why does this thread always go around and around, insisting there can only be room for good opinions on either social politics or economic politics, but not both Why
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Nov 10, 2016 14:19
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Guy Goodbody posted:But just because it sucks doesn't mean you can throw your hands up and walk away
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Nov 10, 2016 14:20
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I agree with your first paragraph, but not with the second one. Apologies if I misrepresent your point, but "We'll really focus on solving social issues (racism, sexism, etc.) when all people feel economically safe enough" seems quite self-contradictory, and it postpones the solving of racial and gender issues to a nebulous future. All these issues must be addressed in the present. Yeah, I don't think those issues need to be postponed, what I mean is that now you can deal with social issues that don't undermine your majority and can be passed with the current level of social pervasiveness (which I believe to be a lot, in competent hands), and as more and more people become sympathetic with your methods, then you can sell more people on more radical reforms because they will feel on average safer and more comfortable. Now is not a time for a hard sell on social justice to the average Trumpist, but if you show them you care about them, they will come, and they will listen to more proposals. And the closer you get to a consensus, the closer you get to some approximation of a socialist plan, but that is for the long game, of course. I mean, now that I write it, it is really banal, but lots of people itt don't believe this is even possible. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 14:20
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Flowers For Algeria posted:It absolutely does, though. Many people were motivated to vote against him. I'd even argue that a lot of people who voted for Clinton actually voted against racism and sexism and their orange incarnation. Then work to actually appeal to the working class non voters interests. Guess what? Hillary didn't. Also for everyone in despair I think you should read this article. https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/donald-trump-will-be-president-this-is-what-we-do-next/
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Nov 10, 2016 14:19
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Clawtopsy posted:Ever since that McCain supporter carved a backwards B into their face, I've become tremendously leery of stories that could end with 'and then everyone Surreal doesn't mean it isn't real. It is. This is going on. He's not the only one reporting it. One of those stories has photos of a beaten child. Seriously why do you think minorities who already catch this poo poo to a maddening degree would suddenly be making it all up now? Have you just not heard any Trump supporters talk about their views on minorities or something? Or do you think somehow that just never ends up translating into action? Because this poo poo is not new, it's just raised in volume after one drat day and the people responsible are making it clear why they feel like they can get away with it.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:19
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Blowdryer posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/ShaunKing Shaun King makes race hustling tweets every time a mass shooting happens where we don't know the race of the perpetrator. He just literally posts peoples facebook claims of hate crimes and never recants the few times people show its bullshit. please stop linking his feed. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2016 14:20
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Clawtopsy posted:Ever since that McCain supporter carved a backwards B into their face, I've become tremendously leery of stories that could end with 'and then everyone The difference between McCain's supporter and these people is: McCain's supporter was a crazy white woman who honestly believed white people face enough oppression that someone would attack her and carve something into her face. Shaun King's gallery is composed of minorities, women. Both groups very much have faced verbal/physical attacks based on their race, gender. Lumping these people with a crazy white woman who thinks white people are the ones really attacked by society is ridiculous at best and racist/sexistly dismissive at worst. Bad Decision Dino posted:Man, I wish someone told Ghandi and MLK. Could have saved those dudes a lot of trouble. If MLK could have gotten white people to not be racist... he'd have done it. If any minority could get a white person to not be racist we'd do it. You think we want this poo poo or that we bring it on ourselves? No. White people choose to be racist and only white people can choose not to be racist.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:20
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:It's not on PoC, who largely make up the democrat party, to convince white people to not be racist. We can't win them over, period. That's up to white people to either start changing themselves or their communities. As this past election showed most white americans currently sit in two camps: voting for pro-white supremacy or being so apathetic about it all that they stay at home, tacitly supporting white supremacy. Yeah sure, putting it off on another group and sitting around waiting for it to happen: that's the ticket alright! Look, sarcasm aside it's this sort of "can't somebody else do it?" lazy assed mentality that caused what happened Tuesday night. I'm not calling minorities lazy, white people are plenty lazy too and they just proved it. Racism and fear are lazy. What's work is ALL of us, minorities, gays, trans, white, middle eastern, Latino, etc, EVERYONE who oppose fear and bigotry and hate WORKING TOGETHER, ACTIVELY coming together as one group against a common enemy, a cipher for all the collective fear and racism in this country. Anyone sitting around and waiting for someone else to do something, I'm sorry to say, deserves what they get. No more sitting on the sidelines. Your country needs you in the fight if you're opposed to what Trump and his ilk stand for, period. We no longer have the luxury of sitting around waiting.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:22
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Trump ran a racist campaign straight up. You can't just ignore that and assume that well people are angry about their jobs.. so they deserve a pass. It's the same stuff that's pushed by far right groups in Europe where they talk about the evil Polish/Jews/Albanians/whatever stealing the jobs of good "natural" citizens. No one should be saying that Greeks should be reaching out to the Golden Dawn or that British people need to learn from UKIP. There's plenty of people in this country that have shown they are willing to vote if the candidate actually tries to appeal to them, which Clinton apparently did not, without resorting to trying to reach across and steal people that, at best, are totally accepting of a blatantly racist platform if they get some benefit and at worst are actively promoting it as a benefit. If the Democrats want to try getting Trump voters by getting back into unions or promoting jobs in the midwest then that's fine (since that would really be a side benefit of getting back Obama's pool). However it should end there and the idea that the racism of the Trump campaign is just this minor thing that people don't REALLY care about while hate crimes are happening all around us is dangerous.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:24
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:If MLK could have gotten white people to not be racist... he'd have done it. If any minority could get a white person to not be racist we'd do it. You think we want this poo poo or that we bring it on ourselves? No. White people choose to be racist and only white people can choose not to be racist. well they clearly haven't chosen that so I guess it's time to give up, gave it your best shot but it wasn't enough. good luck being born white next time.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:24
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:if your position is "it's not my job to educate you about why supporting a racist is bad" you are correct, and you also helped elect president trump and share responsibility for your current predicament. This just in, new DNC outreach plan: shame minorities into somehow getting racist white people to vote for us with their magical 'please stop thinking of me as sub-human powers they are hiding somewhere', because gently caress we sure can't be bothered. Seriously, gently caress right off with this stupid poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:24
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