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Waffles Inc. posted:a lot of y'all are saying "omg white nationalists voted for trump" in the face of seeing democratic turnout down and thinking that from now on we need those white nationalists in the fold Part of the problem is Democrats need a white base not just a brown base and the white base doesn't get AS fired up about racial justice issues. Democrats need a strong, passionate economic message that speaks to everyone, not just coastal elites. One of Hillary's big problems was she never convincingly managed to sell the notion that she cared about anyone making under 250k/year. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 15:17
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Radish posted:I mean if you look at it she got less people to vote for Trump then historically vote Republican. It's just that wasn't enough and she didn't get people to vote for her either. The GOP had no control over Trump in the primary nor in the general. Any Republican who thinks he's going to roll over now that he won, in spite of them, is crazy. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Part of the problem is Democrats need a white base not just a brown base and the white base doesn't get AS fired up about racial justice issues. Democrats need a strong, passionate economic message that speaks to everyone, not just coastal elites. A thousand times this. Medicare and Social Security disability show that people in conservative states have no problem with government entitlements. Use that, talk about a national minimum income that will allow coal miners to support their families while they find/train for another job. Pair that with free college education, so that they can transition into more skilled jobs. Talk about how they aren't going to have to pay more than $10 for their child's insulin because Medicare will be opt-out for all and will negotiate drug prices. Gynocentric Regime fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 15:19
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Waffles Inc. posted:right, and that's categorically different from making racial inequality a, what was it you said, "central point" of the campaign
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Nov 10, 2016 15:19
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Remember that time a couple weeks ago when Trump saw a black man approaching the podium at a rally, called him a "thug" on mic, and had him dragged out by security? And then that guy talked to reporters and revealed he was a Trump supporter, not a protester? Trump's campaign was 100% based on racism and getting his supporters to be pissed about immigration and BLM. I can't fathom why a PoC would have supported this guy, unless it's purely a matter of having bought into the conspiracy theories about Clinton. Or I guess those 30% of hispanic voters who want to be white people now, like what happened to Italians back in the day.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Part of the problem is Democrats need a white base not just a brown base and the white base doesn't get AS fired up about racial justice issues. Democrats need a strong, passionate economic message that speaks to everyone, not just coastal elites. Is it possible to run a platform on both economic reform and outreach and social reform and outreach?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:19
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Sharkopath posted:Is it possible to run a platform on both economic reform and outreach and social reform and outreach? I think you meant this rhetorically but I think it's actually a really important question. Bernie tried but it didn't really work. The problem is if you emphasize class issue people think you're avoiding discussions of race and vice-versa.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:20
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Waffles Inc. posted:you don't see how this rhetoric discourages reporting of real cases do you? i mean you said these words so i have to assume you didn't think it through? You missed the second part of what I said there. The real risk of fiscal and legal responsibility for media blindly re-reporting on matters that could be construed by a judge and jury as libelous or malicious is what's having the real chilling effect. That's not rhetorical. That's a real thing that's really happened and that really can happen. Worse, because everything is personal nowadays and everyone is invested in being on the right side of whatever is going on, because being wrong carries the risk of having to eat crow, most private individuals will go, "oh, well, I hope there's more proof than just what they're saying." That's just how it is. That's not rhetorical either; anecdotal perhaps, but it is in no way a rhetorical construct. Assault of any sort is awful, and survivors of attacks need all the support they can get, but as long as there are people who lie about this stuff there's going to be an unhealthy amount of skepticism by both the media and many private individuals. Just saying "this rhetoric doesn't help"... well... it doesn't help.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:20
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Sharkopath posted:Is it possible to run a platform on both economic reform and outreach and social reform and outreach? YES. And a lot of posters here don't seem to be able to understand that.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Part of the problem is Democrats need a white base not just a brown base and the white base doesn't get AS fired up about racial justice issues. Democrats need a strong, passionate economic message that speaks to everyone, not just coastal elites. in 2012 whites were 72% of the total votes cast and obama won 39% of them 1. what percentage of them would be turned off by a platform of racial equality? 2. how much could turnout be up for minority groups to offset any losses from that 39%? I bet it more than evens out
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Nov 10, 2016 15:22
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Bad Decision Dino posted:He is without a doubt a racist, sexist and a bigot. By making it about their characters, it was made a central point of this election. Only it turns out, people aren't as worried about bigotry as they are about the economy. Woops! People don't care about "the economy" either. That's too broad; that didn't decide the election. It was specifically the economic neglect and suffering that the rust belt is experiencing that decided this.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:23
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Oh, the Democratic fuckening is worse than just being fresh out of Obamas. The Republicans are gonna control every branch of government and just lol if you dont think voter suppression isnt going to make this election look free and open. The Democrats have 3 years to find a candidate not tainted by Hillary's stink of failure who can pull Kerry numbers *at least* to even have a shot no matter how bad Trump is. Actually more like 1 year to find a poo poo ton of candidates to try and win the midterms, but thats not going to happen. Thing is, if the Rs still control the state and federal government in 2020 (they will) they get to control redistricting. Then they lock in everything for a decade. Low voter turn out WHITE AND MINORITY has hosed the Dems for the next decade plus. Just lol at Trump having a better showing in *all* minorities than Romney. How did Hillary get nominated? Who let that happen?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:23
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This is one hosed up bargaining stage.John_A_Tallon posted:You missed the second part of what I said there. The real risk of fiscal and legal responsibility for media blindly re-reporting on matters that could be construed by a judge and jury as libelous or malicious is what's having the real chilling effect. That's not rhetorical. That's a real thing that's really happened and that really can happen. Is SA the media now? Are you the media? Am I a media?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think you meant this rhetorically but I think it's actually a really important question. Another problem is if you talk about class AND race together, then white people stop listening. We're talking about people who hear "intersectionality" and think "dumb teenage internet poo poo".
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Nov 10, 2016 15:23
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Who What Now posted:Weird how that only applies when minorities "lie" about problems that primarily affect them, isn't it? Jesus what lovely logic. The action involved is believing a strangers story and presenting it as true as a third party, that is what is being harmed. Which it should because it's stupid.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:People don't care about "the economy" either. That's too broad; that didn't decide the election.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:23
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FourLeaf posted:YES. And a lot of posters here don't seem to be able to understand that. Martha Stewart Undying posted:Another problem is if you talk about class AND race together, then white people stop listening. Let me phrase my answer this way: if the Democrats find a candidate in 2020 who can convincingly talk about both they'll win the election. Even Obama didn't really though. He mostly talked economics and let his skin color speak for him race. With a few notable exceptions he mostly avoided directly addressing racial issues in his campaign speeches.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:25
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John_A_Tallon posted:You missed the second part of what I said there. The real risk of fiscal and legal responsibility for media blindly re-reporting on matters that could be construed by a judge and jury as libelous or malicious is what's having the real chilling effect. That's not rhetorical. That's a real thing that's really happened and that really can happen. welp, since some people lie i guess everyone should keep their real assaults to themselves and not seek justice??? i don't understand what you're getting at here. what burden of proof from poc do you require before you'll believe they got assaulted?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:24
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John_A_Tallon posted:Oh man, I'm so sorry. You really are a believer. They're not wrong. Neither are you though. Even without the DNC helping her she would have won. She had a twenty year head start, that a socialist septugenariean Vermont jew no one without a red and black flag had heard of before gave her a run for her money is indicative of how bad a candidate she was and how bad of a campaign she ran.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:25
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Waffles Inc. posted:in 2012 whites were 72% of the total votes cast and obama won 39% of them Lol this is real dumb because turnout among minorities was sky loving high in 2012, and they broke for Obama by insane margins. The well was tapped out. But no I think it would be cool and good to break up the Democratic coalition. Doesn't seem to be accomplishing much as is
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Nov 10, 2016 15:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:People don't care about "the economy" either. That's too broad; that didn't decide the election. the rust belt is super racist too, perfect 1+1
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Nov 10, 2016 15:27
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Not a Step posted:Lol this is real dumb because turnout among minorities was sky loving high in 2012, and they broke for Obama by insane margins. The well was tapped out. by 2020 (2018), the 12 year olds of 2012 will be old enough to vote--hell, the 17 year olds of 2016 will be able to vote. The demographics are working against white people and you want to court them? there hasn't been a presidential campaign run on explicit racial justice--it hasn't been tried. no candidate has genuinely tapped into the anger. the closest we've ever gotten has been Obama, who basically just let his skin colour speak for itself
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Nov 10, 2016 15:27
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Bad Decision Dino posted:He is without a doubt a racist, sexist and a bigot. By making it about their characters, it was made a central point of this election. Only it turns out, people aren't as worried about bigotry as they are about the economy. Woops! Exactly, it's hard to get people to think about the big concepts at the top when they aren't even at the bottom. 
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Nov 10, 2016 15:26
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John_A_Tallon posted:You missed the second part of what I said there. The real risk of fiscal and legal responsibility for media blindly re-reporting on matters that could be construed by a judge and jury as libelous or malicious is what's having the real chilling effect. That's not rhetorical. That's a real thing that's really happened and that really can happen. So why did this never happen when loving racist dipshits were/are talking about "the knockout game", hm? Why is that taken at face value by the media? Why are people like you never wringing your hands or tut-tutting the morons propagating the lie that non-whites are feral sub-humans that prowl the streets at night looking for innocent white blood to devour? gently caress off with this loving horseshit.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:28
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As early as next year the Dems have a chance to actually give a poo poo about state elections and take back all the Governor spots they've been giving up for the past couple of decades. If they somehow find a way to motivate the left enough to show up more that once every four years, that'd change everything and quickly. I hope to hell Obama gets involved in this, he could be a huge force to motivate the typical voters and figures like Warren and Sanders help with the left. Too many voters thought they could claim the moral high ground and sit this one out because she had consistently polled so well. Trump's election has proven that false and this is the best chance since 2000 for the Dems to really act like the majority they clearly are.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:27
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cw1lpKHOi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeOKyjcRnU8
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Nov 10, 2016 15:28
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Waffles Inc. posted:welp, since some people lie i guess everyone should keep their real assaults to themselves and not seek justice??? Well, the smug white man answer is always going to be: a legal conviction. Since the system's rigged, in a lot of places anyway, the only ethical answer is going to have to be: when someone I personally know and trust vouches for what the victim said, based either on their own experience with the victim and trust in the victim's account or based on my friend's trust in a third party who is willing to vouch to that degree for the victim.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:27
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Bad Decision Dino posted:He is without a doubt a racist, sexist and a bigot. By making it about their characters, it was made a central point of this election. Only it turns out, people aren't as worried about bigotry as they are about the economy. Woops! Lol, what was Bill Clinton's slogan back in the 90s again? That seems an odd thing for Hillary to forget.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:29
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John_A_Tallon posted:Well, the smug white man answer is always going to be: a legal conviction. goddamn this is some hosed up poo poo i'll be honest how about you just loving believe people?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:30
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Scent of Worf posted:They only voted for her because Trump is so garbage. This is where I wait for you to show me a favorability poll with Trump ahead of Clinton.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:29
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Waffles Inc. posted:by 2020 (2018), the 12 year olds of 2012 will be old enough to vote--hell, the 17 year olds of 2016 will be able to vote. The demographics are working against white people and you want to court them? Yes. White people are still an enormous amount of all voters nationwide, and an even bigger amount in many states that you need to win in order to get a victory in the Electoral College.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:30
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John_A_Tallon posted:Well, the smug white man answer is always going to be: a legal conviction. gently caress you.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:30
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This is exactly my point. Trump ran has campaign on the belief that he could find a large enough following who felt insecure in their basic needs that they would not care about his inability to appeal to higher needs. Hillary reasoned from higher needs issues (of which social progress is one, if you yourself are not a minority). Simply put, Trump bet on the gut and it won him the White House. You cannot respond to this by trying to appeal to the mind harder. It will not work.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:32
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Waffles Inc. posted:goddamn this is some hosed up poo poo i'll be honest People lie.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:31
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Waffles Inc. posted:by 2020 (2018), the 12 year olds of 2012 will be old enough to vote--hell, the 17 year olds of 2016 will be able to vote. The demographics are working against white people and you want to court them? White people were 70% of the electorate in this election. Its not changing that fast. And Hispanics are shaping up to be white lite instead of a big ol monolithic slab of group think. Obama won by taking a large amount of the white vote in addition to his minority support. Minorities can't win a national election on their own without a white base. There aren't enough of them. Court white votes of get crushed by Trumps.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:33
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Waffles Inc. posted:goddamn this is some hosed up poo poo i'll be honest Unfortunately the reality of things in America is that nobody believes anything they don't want to without video evidence, and usually not even then.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:34
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Waffles Inc. posted:
you really are one of the dumbest illiterate motherfuckers on the planet if you think that's what I'm saying. here, let me help you DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:as I said nobody says you have to appeal to the klan Somehow in your hosed up broken brain you translated that as "you have to appeal to the klan," like you have a weird aphasia where you only read the second half of clauses. Here, I'll make it easy for you: purple monkey dishwasher you don't have to appeal to the klan, gleeble snirf whirr but you have to appeal to people who aren't as viscerally disgusted by the klan as you are. your plan is "we just need to get Obama level turnout and we'll win!" so basically try to catch lightning in a bottle again or completely give up any chance of victory. there won't be another Obama in our lifetime.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:34
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Waffles Inc. posted:goddamn this is some hosed up poo poo i'll be honest Do you believe the kkk was roaming the campus at muzzou based only on hysterical tweets? It turned out some guy in the road was cussing btw.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:36
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Unfortunately the reality of things in America is that nobody believes anything they don't want to without video evidence, and usually not even then. I would say that is the case in most of the world.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:37
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John_A_Tallon posted:People lie. cool nice of you to throw your hat in with police who tell women that they probably consented before they passed out you're a real humanitarian my friend pro tip: believe people when they say they were assaulted and if contrary evidence comes out later then act on that
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Nov 10, 2016 15:35
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Kind of like how an explicit socialist message appeals to both the rust belt and to the left base. Or you could be like hillary and think populism is bad and experts uber alles.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:37
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