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Tanreall posted:Again I reject the idea that I should only concentrate on what's good for my own survival. In the words of Albert Camus "There are causes worth dying for, but none worth killing for." you're not killing anybody, we have no control over the processes at play here and the sooner you accept that the sooner you can stop wasting time pretending its contributing to post on internet forums about treaties have some empathy for the people around you ffs
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Nov 10, 2016 19:54
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Tanreall posted:Again I reject the idea that I should only concentrate on what's good for my own survival. In the words of Albert Camus "There are causes worth dying for, but none worth killing for." Yeah, I'm with Tanreall. "FYGM" is sort of what got us into this mess to begin with.
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Nov 10, 2016 19:54
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NewForumSoftware posted:you're not killing anybody, we have no control over the processes at play here and the sooner you accept that the sooner you can stop wasting time pretending its contributing to post on internet forums about treaties Inaction is an action and in this instance it's the action that can lead to death on a massive scale. If you wish to bury your head in the sand while others suffer that is your choice but it's not the only choice and it's not a fated outcome.
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Nov 10, 2016 19:59
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NewForumSoftware posted:lol if you think there was any progress under Obama or thought HRC was going to improve things in any way - snip - at the last moment I realized that you are either trolling or uninformed, neither of which was deserving of an effortpost
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Nov 10, 2016 20:02
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Tanreall posted:Inaction is an action and in this instance it's the action that can lead to death on a massive scale. If you wish to bury your head in the sand while others suffer that is your choice but it's not the only choice and it's not a fated outcome. inaction by whom? are you not acting? I'm acting, i'm just not emotionally invested into stopping global climate change because I don't think the human race can pull it off don't equate realism with giving up on fighting for a better future
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Nov 10, 2016 20:18
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NewForumSoftware posted:inaction by whom? are you not acting? I'm acting, i'm just not emotionally invested into stopping global climate change because I don't think the human race can pull it off You have told me to turn my back on the world and to only act in my own local interest. That is inaction to me. That is giving up and rolling over. Again I reject that completely.
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Nov 10, 2016 20:39
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Tanreall posted:You have told me to turn my back on the world and to only act in my own local interest. That is inaction to me. That is giving up and rolling over. Again I reject that completely. it's not giving up to stop caring about things you can't change and focus on those that you can people are literally talking about committing suicide because donald trump got elected president
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Nov 10, 2016 20:41
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TildeATH posted:I don't care, just don't do it in this thread. gently caress off, you don't get to police what happens here. Not despairing means you're not paying attention to the science and our new political reality. Radbot fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 20:44
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NewForumSoftware posted:it's not giving up to stop caring about things you can't change and focus on those that you can Again the only way forward is resilience. If you give up on the possibility that we can change the world then you'll never see the opportunity should it arise.
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Nov 10, 2016 20:58
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Tanreall posted:Again the only way forward is resilience. If you give up on the possibility that we can change the world then you'll never see the opportunity should it arise. did you form your ideology in the children's section of a barnes and noble store?
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Nov 10, 2016 20:59
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This is the "Climate Change - What is to be done?" thread. The focus is on what can be done. There are no restrictions in the title or OP that I can find on starting point or end goal, only "what can we do?" Whether someone has given up "because realism" is irrelevant. Whether we have been set back tremendously is irrelevant. Today, the new reality is that climate change skeptics / deniers are in control of the White House and EPA. My take is that not that much has changed - tech advances and the slow march of renewables continues, but policy and political will are the gatekeepers to accelerated action on climate change. So: DJT is president. We need to remind a young generation that climate change is real so they go out and vote in greater numbers in 2020. We need to convince more middle-aged, educated people that yes, climate change is real, take a second look and consider putting it higher on your issues list. We need to think of ways to expose less-educated Americans to climate science findings and (probably painfully) slowly flip their ranks -- a topic on media access and information in the Post-Information Age. That's the new focus for anyone who wants to continue to take this topic seriously.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:04
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NewForumSoftware posted:did you form your ideology in the children's section of a barnes and noble store? Oh snap, ad hominem!
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Nov 10, 2016 21:07
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Potato Salad posted:This is the "Climate Change - What is to be done?" thread. Yeah don't look at your local community and try to enact any change there. Let's just wait for politics to save us.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:09
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NewForumSoftware posted:Yeah don't look at your local community and try to enact any change there. Let's just wait for politics to save us. Words I never said ever .txt.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:11
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I'm armchair moderating like crazy right now, but I do not see room for lone survivalist / suicide ethics discussion. Those are philosophical tangents that derail the thread, come across as pointlessly alarmist or detached and hopeless, and do not answer the thread topic. It's one thing to comfort each other a bit, but entirely another to start talking about personal issues (aside from obviously-related personal action things like 'should everyone do solar' or 'local green action ftw'). Reading IPCC reports and following climate change news does not suitably equip us for discussion on psychiatric issues.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:12
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Potato Salad posted:I'm armchair moderating like crazy right now, but I do not see room for lone survivalist / suicide ethics discussion. Those are philosophical tangents that derail the thread, come across as pointlessly alarmist or detached and hopeless, and do not answer the thread topic. I agree quote:It's one thing to comfort each other a bit, but entirely another to start talking about personal issues (aside from obviously-related personal action things like 'should everyone do solar' or 'local green action ftw'). Reading IPCC reports and following climate change news does not suitably equip us for discussion on psychiatric issues. Local green action is literally the only thing we can do so maybe it's what the thread should be about instead of pontificating about the implications of international policy that will never happen. Put it this way, what if government can't save us, climate change is going to happen and what we call global civilization collapses in the next 10 years. Is there literally zero value in discussing what action you might take today to buffer yourself from such a scenario?
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Nov 10, 2016 21:14
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Potato Salad posted:I'm armchair moderating like crazy right now, but I do not see room for lone survivalist / suicide ethics discussion. Who do you care so much about this? The "solutions" being tossed around right now, like "make people believe in climate change before it's too late", are asinine. When will you wake up to the fact that nobody will EVER care about climate change in any significant manner until it's personally affecting them, and thus far too late?
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Nov 10, 2016 21:16
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Radbot posted:Who do you care so much about this? The "solutions" being tossed around right now, like "make people believe in climate change before it's too late", are asinine. When will you wake up to the fact that nobody will EVER care about climate change in any significant manner until it's personally affecting them, and thus far too late? I think it's fair to say both can be stupid. D&D just isn't the place to talk about killing yourself, call a suicide hotline or something. What people need to realize is we live in the blink of an eye of human history and people were just fine before we had iphones and modern medicine. We're moving to new equilibrium, just embrace it. Hope you don't have a chronic illness that requires medication.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:18
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We have enormous weight at the local level. 90% of your township / mayoral / city council staff are actually not very well versed on climate science - specifically rigor - and will engage with you for hours if time allows. They can be receptive. It's easier to discuss projected revenue vs upfront cost of +1 bus route or +1 special local penny sales tax toward commons reclamation or sidewalks. Nationwide policy in energy generation and climate change is a bitch in scale, but you can get poo poo done at local scale as it is much more approachable. Napkin math actually makes sense here. Example: we got Fulton TSPLOST on the ballot and passed on Tuesday  It's a public transportation penny tax. We're expanding this poo poo.Five year projected revenue: • 36.2% - ($236.1M) Congestion Relief / Roadway Projects • 23% - ($150.7M) Operations & Safety • 18.9% - ($123.8M) Maintenance & Safety Enhancements • 14.7% - ($96.3M) Pedestrian /Bike-Landscape / Streetscape Projects • 3.1% - ($20.1M) Bridges • 2.4% - ($15.9M) Quick Response projects • 1.4% - Program / Project Management • 0.2% - Fulton County Airport • 0.2% - Debt Retirement
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Nov 10, 2016 21:24
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Radbot posted:Who do you care so much about this? The "solutions" being tossed around right now, like "make people believe in climate change before it's too late", are asinine. When will you wake up to the fact that nobody will EVER care about climate change in any significant manner until it's personally affecting them, and thus far too late? See above post of actual, real progress. Its one tiny bite. I should give up entirely?
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Nov 10, 2016 21:25
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Potato Salad posted:We have enormous weight at the local level. 90% of your township / mayoral / city council staff are actually not very well versed on climate science - specifically rigor - and will engage with you for hours if time allows. They can be receptive. I also live in an area where this is becoming a real thing and seriously, if you're having mental health issues or trouble coping with this poo poo, if you can afford to, going somewhere people actually recognize it actually helps a lot. gently caress the feds, they are worthless piles of poo poo. There's no law that says we can't do it ourselves. No, we can't save the world, but we can make our worlds better places.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:24
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Goal: take a small nibble out of GA emissions and congestion, improve access to transit Scope: Fulton county GA Status: small victory
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Nov 10, 2016 21:26
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Doing work at the local level is great but don't put yourself in a box where that's all you can hope to accomplish.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:38
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Tanreall posted:Doing work at the local level is great but don't put yourself in a box where that's all you can hope to accomplish. can you actually say something that means something instead of quoting the end of bernstein bears books
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Nov 10, 2016 21:39
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NewForumSoftware posted:can you actually say something that means something instead of quoting the end of bernstein bears books More ad hominem! Let me put it more bluntly. Isolationism is a bad idea with the global problems we face.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:40
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Tanreall posted:More ad hominem! Where am I advocating for isolationism? I'm advocating that you can't change federal policy so you shouldn't care about it. Your argument seems to be "but you can't give up hope!" Like I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, what makes you think, even if the US elected a climate-change first president, that they could muster enough global coordination to reverse or slow down climate change in any meaningful way?
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Nov 10, 2016 21:42
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NewForumSoftware posted:Where am I advocating for isolationism? I'm advocating that you can't change federal policy so you shouldn't care about it. Your argument seems to be "but you can't give up hope!" Are you being serious? NewForumSoftware posted:you realize that humans lived for tens of thousands of years without knowing what was happening 10 miles away, much less across the entire world NewForumSoftware posted:I agree "gently caress everyone who isn't in my neck of the woods" is a longer way of saying isolationism. We have one planet, and Climate Change is not a local issue. It is a global issue. I personally believe that it can only be solved completely on a global level, and that solution involves humanity not emitting GHGs into the atmosphere. How we get there is what we have to decide. We either let our economies collapse to the point where we stop emitting and deal with the consequences of that, or we can have a controlled descent in emissions. Local solutions are part of the solution, yes, but in this case, the planet has to be our first priority.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:49
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Inglonias posted:"gently caress everyone who isn't in my neck of the woods" is a longer way of saying isolationism. We have one planet, and Climate Change is not a local issue. It is a global issue. I personally believe that it can only be solved completely on a global level, and that solution involves humanity not emitting GHGs into the atmosphere. How we get there is what we have to decide. We either let our economies collapse to the point where we stop emitting and deal with the consequences of that, or we can have a controlled descent in emissions. Local solutions are part of the solution, yes, but in this case, the planet has to be our first priority. Isolationism is a policy governments pursue, not people. Man some of you are real goombas. If I thought there was a chance in hell global coordination could stop or slow down climate change I would advocate for it. But there isn't, so let's accept it and move on. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 21:50
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NewForumSoftware posted:Where am I advocating for isolationism? I'm advocating that you can't change federal policy so you shouldn't care about it. This is a form of isolationism. You only want to focus at the local level because you believe every thing else is too big to change. NewForumSoftware posted:Your argument seems to be "but you can't give up hope!" I wouldn't call it hope as that's just an escape from reality but part of the message is to be resilient. NewForumSoftware posted:Like I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here Hahahahahahaahah, no you're not. You've already attacked me twice by ad hominem. NewForumSoftware posted:what makes you think, even if the US elected a climate-change first president, that they could muster enough global coordination to reverse or slow down climate change in any meaningful way? I believe we have the technology, wealth, and understanding to do so. We just lack the will to act. What makes you so sure we can't?
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Nov 10, 2016 22:01
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Tanreall posted:This is a form of isolationism. You only want to focus at the local level because you believe every thing else is too big to change. No it's not "too big" to change, it's "impossible". Not because of size, but because of political realities and our failure to form some sort of globally coordinated organization that could possibly stop climate change. quote:I believe we have the technology, wealth, and understanding to do so. We just lack the will to act. What makes you so sure we can't? Oh I think the US can and will act when poo poo gets bad enough, in the form of using our military to enforce climate treaties overseas on countries that have little to do with the carbon heating the atmosphere today. The US isn't the problem, it's the world. The type of global coordination required to stop climate change or even slow it down is impossible if you attempt to take into account any number of political realities in today's world, much less all of them. But beyond that, even with a global autocratic government with unlimited resources it's hard to see a path to stopping climate change in any meaningful way regardless. Maybe you'd like to provide some evidence to the contrary?
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Nov 10, 2016 22:05
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Casual reminder that the majority of Earth's emissions are produced by entities that have ratified the Paris Agreement.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:09
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NewForumSoftware posted:No it's not "too big" to change, it's "impossible". Not because of size, but because of political realities and our failure to form some sort of globally coordinated organization that could possibly stop climate change. This is where we disagree. I believe things can change and that everyday we must choose to make that change a reality. NewForumSoftware posted:But beyond that, even with a global autocratic government with unlimited resources it's hard to see a path to stopping climate change in any meaningful way regardless. Maybe you'd like to provide some evidence to the contrary? This is just a hyperbolic statement because a global autocratic government with unlimited resources could easily stop climate change if the dictator saw fit to do so.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:13
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Tanreall posted:This is where we disagree. I believe things can change and that everyday we must choose to make that change a reality. Based on what? quote:This is just hyperbolic statement because a global autocratic government with unlimited resources could easily stop climate change if the dictator saw fit to do so.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:15
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NewForumSoftware posted:Based on what? Potato Salad posted:Casual reminder that the majority of Earth's emissions are produced by entities that have ratified the Paris Agreement. A dictatorship which is what an autocracy is most known for in this day and age is the most agile form of government.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:17
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Tanreall posted:A dictatorship which is what an autocracy is most known for in this day and age is the most agile form of government. I'm asking you like in reality, you're world dictator, what do you do to stop climate change? You seem convinced it's possible, what does it look like? Also dictators actually do operate under political realities, just in case you were curious. Makes a lot of them easier but they don't go away.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:18
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NewForumSoftware posted:I'm asking you like in reality, you're world dictator, what do you do to stop climate change? You seem convinced it's possible, what does it look like? What reality do you live in that we're going to have a global autocracy?
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Nov 10, 2016 22:22
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Tanreall posted:What reality do you live in that we're going to have a global autocracy? None, but I don't think stopping climate change is possible even if we did have that. I notice you're avoiding answering the question, and I can understand that maybe you haven't read that much about this issue but I can assure you if you take the time to actually try to understand what is happening and how we could possibly stop it you'll realize that you're going to need a time machine at this point to avoid 4C+ of warming. So I mean, I guess you can hold out hope for time travel but I think I'm just going to stop investing myself emotionally into what happens around the world and focus on the people around me that are actually part of my reality and not a digital mirage. Maybe that makes me a bad person but until I see any type of realistic plan that offers another path I don't see much point in talking about it.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:22
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NewForumSoftware posted:None, but I don't think stopping climate change is possible even if we did have that. First, off your question is a ridiculous and pointless hypothetical that I'm not going to waste time on. Second, you don't get to place yourself as some sort of expert without backing it up. Third, expecting any one person to have the entire answer to climate change is just being dishonest with the issue. It's going to take a great many people from all over the world to solve. Shutting down and removing yourself from the discussion on how that happens isn't helping and doesn't work toward making the future a better place.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:32
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If I was dictator of earth I'd get all the best climate change projections, see what we can do to best slow things or not have the very worst outcome possible, and start right now today re-building and re-ordering civilization based on the long term effects. Start moving people/cities, start improving flood and storm infrastructure, start major changes in agriculture (like drastically reducing meat production). Basically start doing everything we can for civilization to survive the best it can given what we know is coming, actually prepare. If we need fewer people, implement some sort of 2-child policy, or maybe something even more crazy and extreme like educating and empowering women and lifting communities out of poverty. Probably destroy or heavily reform capitalism and drastically change society's expectations on what consumerism looks like. Public trials and imprisonment for most of the world's current capital and political elite and a big propaganda push blaming them and their model of global capitalism for the hardships the world is going into. Really long term, heavily invest in better and better GM crops, mass-produce nuclear power (and renewables where it makes sense), and a total war on suburbia and car-centric planning that makes the worst agenda-21 conspiracy theory look like a sun-belt developer's wet dream, asteroid mining and lagrange point colonies to eventually shift most resource gathering and manufacturing off-world, make a new season of "space above and beyond".
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Nov 10, 2016 22:35
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Baronjutter posted:If I was dictator of earth I'd get all the best climate change projections, see what we can do to best slow things or not have the very worst outcome possible, and start right now today re-building and re-ordering civilization based on the long term effects. Start moving people/cities, start improving flood and storm infrastructure, start major changes in agriculture (like drastically reducing meat production). Basically start doing everything we can for civilization to survive the best it can given what we know is coming, actually prepare. If we need fewer people, implement some sort of 2-child policy, or maybe something even more crazy and extreme like educating and empowering women and lifting communities out of poverty. Probably destroy or heavily reform capitalism and drastically change society's expectations on what consumerism looks like. Public trials and imprisonment for most of the world's current capital and political elite and a big propaganda push blaming them and their model of global capitalism for the hardships the world is going into. Really long term, heavily invest in better and better GM crops, mass-produce nuclear power (and renewables where it makes sense), and a total war on suburbia and car-centric planning that makes the worst agenda-21 conspiracy theory look like a sun-belt developer's wet dream, asteroid mining and lagrange point colonies to eventually shift most resource gathering and manufacturing off-world, make a new season of "space above and beyond". Yeah I mean this is great and all and I am behind your plan 100% but it's not going to stop or slow down climate change. What you're talking about is basically putting civilization on overdrive. Tanreall posted:First, off your question is a ridiculous and pointless hypothetical that I'm not going to waste time on. Second, you don't get to place yourself as some sort of expert without backing it up. Third, expecting any one person to have the entire answer to climate change is just being dishonest with the issue. It's going to take a great many people from all over the world to solve. Shutting down and removing yourself from the discussion on how that happens isn't helping and doesn't work toward making the future a better place. The only person shutting down and removing themselves from the conversation is you. I agree that stopping climate change is a noble goal, it's just that there's no way to stop it so pretending like we can is kind of stupid.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:28
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