|
Admiral Ray posted:So is there anything the Republicans did right? Like it's great to autopsy this election and go "Hmm, if the adults had only taken a bit more responsibility then maybe that childish party over there wouldn't have elected a fascist" but what strengths did the Republicans really bring? none really, trump got lucky that tons of left voters preferred an unpredictable confidence trickster in office over a centrist status quo candidate so long as it blew up the establishment
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:52 |
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:So is there anything the Republicans did right? Like it's great to autopsy this election and go "Hmm, if the adults had only taken a bit more responsibility then maybe that childish party over there wouldn't have elected a fascist" but what strengths did the Republicans really bring? Appealing to white nationalism, apparently.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:19
|
|
|
PKJC posted:Straight white liberals being willing to take their ball and go home because 4 years of minorities being terrorized won't affect them personally is a long standing tradition Proud tradition. Like can't you see how much your protest is interrupting my loving latte? How selfish can you be. You want me to protest with you? But why it's not my story to tell. Besides I've got this thing to do, kbye!
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:21
|
|
|
Alec Bald Snatch posted:and yet none of that mattered Frankly I think that's a more damning condemnation of the American electorate than anything. Like I don't like Hillary but all of the hyperbolic "she's evil and not Bernie" garbage right now from leftists is hilarious. Especially from people who will talk about how good Obama is when Obama really, really should be hated by leftists too. I mean if you're at least a consistent leftist who hates both Hillary and Obama then ok I respect that but liking Obama and hating Hillary reeks of hypocritical unfairness.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:20
|
|
|
Boon posted:Haha nice. lol ok on the other hand, we have the strategies that resulted in the election of donald trump
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:20
|
|
|
Alec Bald Snatch posted:and yet none of that mattered it's pretty disheartening to see, from the left, how much more obama's rock star charisma mattered than his actual policy stances. like we're really only this [ ] much better than the republicans in terms of voting for the guy with the biggest smile
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:22
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:so what? that's the reality of what happened. fix it or keep losing. She won the popular vote and had the VRA not been gutted or had Comey not done his last minute fuckery with Weiner's e-mails she would be president right now. Donald Trump won with less votes than Mitt Romney got. He got very lucky. His margin was razor thin. It's not like he was super inspiring either (unless you're a pepe toucher or white supremacist). Yeah, Hillary's not as inspiring as Obama. Neither is Bernie Sanders. Hillary got millions more votes in the Democratic primary. If he was such a great inspiring candidate then maybe he should have bothered to talk to a PoC before attempting to float the "rising tide lifts all boats," rhetoric that's hosed minorities for decades. I know you have a desperate need to gauge in I-told-you-so-ism because you seem to have a grudge against Hillary, but you are pretending this election wasn't mega-hosed-up from the time DJT rode down the escalator. You're just accepting the idea that she's responsible for all this poo poo that was completely outside her control. She made mistakes, but I find it hard to fault her when she won the popular vote and the only reason she lost comes down to a couple hundred thousand people casting their votes in very specific geographic areas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:22
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:So is there anything the Republicans did right? Like it's great to autopsy this election and go "Hmm, if the adults had only taken a bit more responsibility then maybe that childish party over there wouldn't have elected a fascist" but what strengths did the Republicans really bring? They put up a candidate that got people to the polls. Democrats didn't. I hate to admit it, but everyone in D&D who said Clinton was a poo poo candidate was totally right. She was. edit: Whoa holy gently caress what the hell did I say to get this title?  Seriously I don't even know what the hell it's referring to.
On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Nov 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:21
|
|
|
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but isn't one of the end results of Democrats appealing to disaffected rural whites is to have some Blue Dogs elected again?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:23
|
|
|
plausible case to be made that democratic infighting was because democratic party never had a chance to address the recession, given that obama was already the nominee when it occurred, and we've been kinda coasting since without addressing how to handle it as a party
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:23
|
|
|
On Terra Firma posted:They put up a candidate that got people to the polls. Democrats didn't. I hate to admit it, but everyone in D&D who said Clinton was a poo poo candidate was totally right. She was. she's a totally acceptable candidate, she won the popular vote. she just wasn't the flashiest, most gently caress you dad candidate to drive out the youth vote which gave obama crushing victories in 08 and 12 hillary got more votes than kerry in 04 and gore in 2000, but going back that far is already sensitive to population growth. still,
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:23
|
|
|
On Terra Firma posted:They put up a candidate that got people to the polls. Democrats didn't. I hate to admit it, but everyone in D&D who said Clinton was a poo poo candidate was totally right. She was. Well, the Republican primary voters chose Trump, the RNC sure as poo poo didn't. They didn't think he was gonna win any more than the DNC.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:24
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:So is there anything the Republicans did right? Like it's great to autopsy this election and go "Hmm, if the adults had only taken a bit more responsibility then maybe that childish party over there wouldn't have elected a fascist" but what strengths did the Republicans really bring? They refused to vote on a new supreme court justice for a year. That was pretty smart.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:24
|
|
|
kartikeya posted:Rallying the base is really loving hard at present when so many of them chose to gently caress the rest over in favor of their egos and some fantasy of what could have been, and when they're still tripping over each other to rub what's about to happen in everyone's faces. what do you want to hear? the reality of what happened is hillary's people lost and they did it in a way that upset and alienated a lot of people. its up to them to swallow their pride, admit they were wrong, and that they lost. this reaction didn't come from no where. hillary's people pissed a lot of people off for literally nothing. its up to them to make things right. whether you like it or not, that's the situation. maybe the people that just lost the election should be responding by asking "okay, what did we do wrong and how do we do better next time" instead of fighting for their pride that just caused the damage they're so callously blaming on everyone else Boon posted:Bernie promised that - but that's the rub - there was no way for him to deliver even assuming he did win (I don't make that assumption). deliver doesn't always mean success. it means fighting tooth and nail even if it ends in failure. visibility and optics are just as important. we alway lament at how die-hard conservatives are. where are our die-hard liberals? Lightning Knight posted:This is also true. I am of the belief we would have won NC and Florida if not for effective Republican voter suppression. obama didn't just lose because he failed. he lost voters because it didn't look like he was even trying. it looked like he was capitulating left and right and so people gave up on the dream he promised. later obama realized this and fought a lot harder, but it was too late. 2010 had already happened and that just further stymied his progress which resulted in people becoming more disillusioned. boner confessor posted:if you'd rather increase the odds of the republican winning because you didn't work within the party system and you're mad you didn't get your way then the party is better off without you, to be honest this is exactly the kind of attitude that just ushered donald trump into the white house. people want a democratic party that actually fights for their beliefs. the democrats have been horrible at catering to the established desires of their electorate: financial regulation, less war, ending the national security state, national health care, economic inequality, fighting lobbyist influence and corruption. where are the die-hard democrats fighting publicly and openly for these things?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:25
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:So is there anything the Republicans did right? Like it's great to autopsy this election and go "Hmm, if the adults had only taken a bit more responsibility then maybe that childish party over there wouldn't have elected a fascist" but what strengths did the Republicans really bring? trump did a lot of rallies in east bumfuck and dogpatch which undoubtedly helped boost his performance in the sticks
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:25
|
|
|
SoggyBobcat posted:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but isn't one of the end results of Democrats appealing to disaffected rural whites is to have some Blue Dogs elected again? Yeah the fifty state strategy produces a lot of really, really lovely conservative Democrats. It's why Obama's first term was such a disaster, we only controlled Congress on paper. ErIog posted:She won the popular vote and had the VRA not been gutted or had Comey not done his last minute fuckery with Weiner's e-mails she would be president right now. I largely agree with this assessment except that I do think in hindsight that we would've been better off with Bernie. I don't however think he would've done materially better because there's about a million different factors we can't account for. boner confessor posted:it's pretty disheartening to see, from the left, how much more obama's rock star charisma mattered than his actual policy stances. like we're really only this [ ] much better than the republicans in terms of voting for the guy with the biggest smile I'd argue there isn't a difference really.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:25
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:this is exactly the kind of attitude that just ushered donald trump into the white house. people want a democratic party that actually fights for their beliefs. the democrats have been horrible at catering to the established desires of their electorate: financial regulation, less war, ending the national security state, national health care, economic inequality, fighting lobbyist influence and corruption. where are the die-hard democrats fighting publicly and openly for these things? lol at you framing yourself as the majority when hillary won the popular vote. there are plenty of people who thought that hillary fought for their beliefs, it just wasn't you. and you're stomping your feet in the fringe left minority saying that if only you had been waited on more you would have bothered to engage in party solidarity. sorry rear end in a top hat, if you don't play the game you don't win the prize, and there's a much longer history of youth leftists not turning out because they don't get exactly what they want if you don't bother to vote for the dems when they need it, then you don't get to complain that the dems can't enact your pet policies. and because of your tantrum the complete opposite team gets to make policy for the next term. thanks a lot, douchebag
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:29
|
|
|
negromancer posted:Especially since black people have to deal with long term unemployment, have to deal with it for longer periods, and at higher rates. Of course white people are good at selling black people down river.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:28
|
|
|
PKJC posted:Straight white liberals being willing to take their ball and go home because 4 years of minorities being terrorized won't affect them personally is a long standing tradition They took their ball and went home but they're back, they're back baby! They're gonna lead the party now that you've all learned your lesson about not heeding their super wisdom, and we'll all follow them to sunshine and rainbows and totally forget that they straight up went 'I don't really care if you suffer and die' to everyone else. You know, I really don't think Bernie Sanders would agree that the shitlords who sat out on Tuesday should be the ones leading the party, funnily enough. They abandoned him too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:28
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:it's pretty disheartening to see, from the left, how much more obama's rock star charisma mattered than his actual policy stances. like we're really only this [ ] much better than the republicans in terms of voting for the guy with the biggest smile his being the only guy who apparently can run a competent campaign seems more disheartening
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:29
|
|
|
Well, part of the problem with fighting openly against economic inequality is that it takes money. A lot. Labor doesn't have it. People don't have it (good luck replicating Bernie's fundraising for Senate and House races and local elections). So who has it? The people most effected by your calls.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:30
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:Well, the Republican primary voters chose Trump, the RNC sure as poo poo didn't. They didn't think he was gonna win any more than the DNC. DON'T YOU KNOW Hillary actually rigged *both* primaries, duh.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:30
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:this is exactly the kind of attitude that just ushered donald trump into the white house. people want a democratic party that actually fights for their beliefs. the democrats have been horrible at catering to the established desires of their electorate: financial regulation, less war, ending the national security state, national health care, economic inequality, fighting lobbyist influence and corruption. where are the die-hard democrats fighting publicly and openly for these things? Can't help but notice a really important category of issues that you somehow think isn't relevant to the established democratic electorate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:29
|
|
|
i really am doubting that far left greens and unreformed sanderistias even understand how representative democracy works, or the role of compromise in passing legislationAlec Bald Snatch posted:his being the only guy who apparently can run a competent campaign seems more disheartening agreed that hillary 16 ran a bad campaign but i dont think that stroking off unrealistic far leftists was their biggest sin, if anything they should have gone more local and centrist
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:31
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:Yeah the fifty state strategy produces a lot of really, really lovely conservative Democrats. It's why Obama's first term was such a disaster, we only controlled Congress on paper.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:34
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:i really am doubting that far left greens and unreformed sanderistias even understand how representative democracy works, or the role of compromise in passing legislation Ask the Freedom Caucus, controlling the House, Senate, and Presidency, about the role of compromise in electoral success imo
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:34
|
|
|
Alec Bald Snatch posted:his being the only guy who apparently can run a competent campaign seems more disheartening Yeah like I said we're really, really hosed as a party for the next eight years: * We don't have anybody to run. Most people who already have seats are hated by the progressive wing for being "establishment" (seriously tho the adoption of alt-right rhetoric like establishment, globalist, etc. needs to stop. Globalist is a dogwhistle for Jewish people and it's especially inappropriate), and those that aren't don't have any national profile. * The DNC is widely hated and in total disarray. We've been completely routed and there's no meaningful organization. * There's little to no competitive districts and states to run in between gerrymandering and voter suppression. * The two main wings of the party, progressives and business Democrats, utterly hate each other and won't compromise because they don't have substantial overlapping interests in economic policy. Boon posted:Well, part of the problem with fighting openly against economic inequality is that it takes money. A lot. And because business Democrats have all of the money, the progressive wing won't really be able to just take over and run the table. But the business wing can't win elections anymore. Which is why we're hosed. PKJC posted:Can't help but notice a really important category of issues that you somehow think isn't relevant to the established democratic electorate. Hmmmmmmmmm.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:34
|
|
|
ErIog posted:She won the popular vote and had the VRA not been gutted or had Comey not done his last minute fuckery with Weiner's e-mails she would be president right now. this whole line of thinking needs to die. she lost millions of former democratic voters that lovingly embraced obama. trump lost voters too and still won. hillary was a risky candidate going in to the election and we all knew it. you people are refusing to accept it. you LOST to trump. you candidate didn't bring people to the polls. that's your fault. boner confessor posted:lol at you framing yourself as the majority when hillary won the popular vote. there are plenty of people who thought that hillary fought for their beliefs, it just wasn't you. and you're stomping your feet in the fringe left minority saying that if only you had been waited on more you would have bothered to engage in party solidarity. sorry rear end in a top hat, if you don't play the game you don't win the prize, and there's a much longer history of youth leftists not turning out because they don't get exactly what they want hillary lost. you have no leg to stand on. if things were different they'd be different, but they're not. the reality is the democratic party needs more voters and those voters want different things. be upset all you want. you guys played the game perfectly and you still didn't get the prize either. i don't know how to explain to you that the game you're playing is flawed and that the democrats need to make real changes to fix the state of their party. reject the election all you want. ignore the voters that felt alienated. its not going to help. we either move forward together, or we keep losing
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:35
|
|
|
kartikeya posted:They took their ball and went home but they're back, they're back baby! They're gonna lead the party now that you've all learned your lesson about not heeding their super wisdom, and we'll all follow them to sunshine and rainbows and totally forget that they straight up went 'I don't really care if you suffer and die' to everyone else. Yeah if I was Bernie I'd be pretty depressed and feeling betrayed by my Bros. I'm glad he's being quick to push for new leadership in the DNC to hopefully get stronger leftist voices in positions of power in the party apparatus.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:35
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:you guys played the game perfectly and you still didn't get the prize either. i don't know how to explain to you that the game you're playing is flawed and that the democrats need to make real changes to fix the state of their party. reject the election all you want. ignore the voters that felt alienated. its not going to help. You keep framing this as "you Democrats." Bernie wasn't even a Democrat until he ran. Progressives will not gain power until they engage with the party system. So long as we view ourselves as a separate entity that is special, unique, and ideologically pure we will get nothing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:37
|
|
|
On Terra Firma posted:They put up a candidate that got people to the polls. Democrats didn't. I hate to admit it, but everyone in D&D who said Clinton was a poo poo candidate was totally right. She was. There's been one really salty dude giving out "ironic racist" or whatever redtexts since at least the QCS thread about D&D moderation, and another one giving out all these cropped anime porn avs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:37
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:shitthatdidnthappen.tweet gently caress off man. I've already seen poo poo like this happen, in real life. You're free to say anecdote isn't data or whatever but there is definitely a post-election effect happening all over the country and it's making assholes come out in droves, in ways I've never seen before. They remain anecdotes until they happen to you or somebody you care about. I can't speak to this incident but given the aggregate it's pretty safe to assume these things are real.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:38
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:what do you want to hear? I'll tell you what I'd like to hear, I'd like to hear one of you shits say something like 'I voted for Hillary Clinton in spite of my bruised ego because I recognized the utter tsunami of poo poo that would be unleashed on the least powerful in our country if Donald Trump won with a Republican Congress and a vacant Supreme Court seat'. Not 'you need to swallow your pride and admit you were wrong and my candidate was better and you lost in part because I didn't feel it was important enough to actually help people'. There were some early fellow Bernie folks who said this in these threads and then said 'Bernie was better' who loving got it. Not many, but some. 'Hillary's people' didn't lose. Everyone did. Every loving one of us. We all lose, but no, gotta bow your head to people who claimed to support the democratic socialist and then said 'gently caress You Got Mine' when it mattered. I voted for the old man and then I actually loving listened to him when he lost.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:42
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:This is also true. I am of the belief we would have won NC and Florida if not for effective Republican voter suppression. in nc, clinton outperformed obama in urban counties which were the targets of the worst suppression tactics and trump severely underperformed romney she lost all the suburban and rural counties by 25-30% where democrats typically only lose by 10-15 the dem gubernatorial candidate won, barring a wacky recount, running the exact opposite of clinton's campaign asking people if they've been on the receiving end of the incumbent governor's claims of economic recovery
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:42
|
|
|
SoggyBobcat posted:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but isn't one of the end results of Democrats appealing to disaffected rural whites is to have some Blue Dogs elected again? I don't think Rust Belt is exactly the same as rural. Former industrial laborers and their families are not farmers. They support strong worker rights and protections, higher salaries and benefits, and striking out against multinational corporations. Blue Dogs never particularly supported labor as far as I recall. In any event, even if you got a bunch of Blue Dogs in, it'd still be better than what we currently have. They're lovely, but they'll give you the House and/or Senate, meaning that judges get appointed and legislation is a possibility. It may get watered down tremendously, but it can get passed. See ACA, Dodd-Frank, and the stimulus. You can argue whether the bad from the first was really worth the (nonetheless incredible) good that came (especially before SCOTUS cut the Medicaid expansion), but having the last two was unequivocally better than not. In a choice between a Blue Dog and a Republican, you choose the Blue Dog every time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:42
|
|
|
Nevvy Z posted:Just because it wasn't their primary concern doesn't mean half the country didn't sign off on all the racist poo poo Trump said Maybe they decided that, "Bernie Sanders, except he's a racist" was preferable to, "Mitt Romney, except she's a SJW."
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:42
|
|
|
Alec Bald Snatch posted:in nc, clinton outperformed obama in urban counties which were the targets of the worst suppression tactics and trump severely underperformed romney Interesting. Also lmao gently caress everybody who voted for him and not for Clinton what a bunch of assholes. Xequecal posted:Maybe they decided that, "Bernie Sanders, except he's a racist" was preferable to, "Mitt Romney, except she's a SJW." Anyone who ironically says "SJW" is an rear end in a top hat, gently caress off dude. Also this revision of history for Hillary to be this pseudo-Republican Blue Dog who was evil and wanted to destroy progressivism is hilarious. You want to know what an actual Blue Dog neoliberal candidate looks like look at Bill Clinton. Hillary ran on free loving college for poor and middle class people like what the gently caress is wrong with you calling her female Mitt Romney lmao.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:45
|
|
|
On Terra Firma posted:They put up a candidate that got people to the polls. Democrats didn't. I hate to admit it, but everyone in D&D who said Clinton was a poo poo candidate was totally right. She was. Have you visited the Negrotown thread recently? Might be why if so.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:44
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:christ people, relax. abortion is not going to be banned at the federal level. that's loving ridiculous. This also requires Trump to replace 2 SCOTUS seats, rather than just 1. Scalia was a conservative shitheel, so appointing someone just as bad would just be the status quo
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:52 |
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:hillary lost. you have no leg to stand on. if things were different they'd be different, but they're not. the reality is the democratic party needs more voters and those voters want different things. be upset all you want. Bernie couldn't even win over a majority of Democrats. You have no leg to stand on. If things were different they'd be different, but they're not. There was a primary. The reality is the Bernie coalition needed to convince more voters. Be upset all you want, but he was a bad candidate. You see how easy it is to play this game and how insufferably stupid it is? These are just reheated Bernie tears you're crying now instead of before. poo poo is hosed. Situation is mega unfortunate. Yet you seem to have a very real need to point the finger at Hillary Clinton instead of people in 'burbs who thought Trump wasn't really racist or didn't care. ErIog fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Nov 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 08:45
|
|