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a fleshy snood posted:So I received the offer I posted about earlier that I was told would be low, and well, they weren't joking. Sounds like you read the initial situation well. Their next move will be to sell you on the job despite the lousy pay. Your preparation is two mental rehearsals. Before they respond to your desired salary, you rehearse walking. After they respond and try to bullshit you, you have one mantra: "gently caress you, pay me." You will probably end up either having to accept their offer or walk. Walking is hard the first time, but it gets easier the more you do it.
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Nov 3, 2016 14:39
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a fleshy snood posted:So I received the offer I posted about earlier that I was told would be low, and well, they weren't joking. That's a big bummer, but it sounds like you were able to see it coming so that's a point in your corner. The hard part now is deciding whether it's worth signing up to be underpaid. Without knowing all the details, my gut instinct is to say no. If you don't have a burning itch to get out of your current job then you can definitely go back and play hardball with them. They will likely balk at a 30% counter, but that's okay. They need to hear it directly that they are wildly underpaying for this role. As long as you are prepared to stick to your guns and walk away if they don't come close to that you have the upper hand in this. Don't buy into whatever sales pitch they'll give you about why it's "worth it" to take such an undermarket salary for the "amazing opportunity" to work there.
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Nov 3, 2016 18:29
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Guinness posted:Don't buy into whatever sales pitch they'll give you about why it's "worth it" to take such an undermarket salary for the "amazing opportunity" to work there. Good advice, keep in mind that there a ton of other "amazing opportunities" out there, most of which will be paying a lot more than these guys. Also remember that if they're already lowballing new hires by this amount, it's highly unlikely you'll ever get a decent raise. So you'll have to (threaten to) walk to get one later anyway, so better get paid now. In a few years you will probably have to walk anyway.
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Nov 3, 2016 19:07
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So I was told to ask here:ACES CURE PLANES posted:So I just got off the phone with a company willing to hire me, which is nice and exciting and all that, but I'm kind of concerned. The offer they made was 30k a year, which isn't a particularly good improvement to my 27.5k a year that I currently make, which they know. They also are aware of the fact that my current employer is downsizing at the end of the year, and that I'll be out of a job in two months time either way. The problem of course is that the company I will be working for is a subsidiary of the company that is purchasing my current workplace, so they know all the information they could possibly want, and kind of have me by the balls. So I'm in a situation where they know what I make, know I've got little in the way of prospects, and know that I'm on the clock to make a decision. Between 1-11, how hosed am I?
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Nov 4, 2016 04:06
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:So I was told to ask here: 4 They know your BATNA isn't good. They know they're dangling something slightly better in front of you. And they know that in <60 days you'll be unemployed, so you can't even stonewall them and come back later projecting confidence. They probably didn't know what your salary was without you telling them; even if there's a corporate chain of ownership that gets to your pleasant employer, there probably is not a pathway for the info to flow easily. You don't have great options. I would probably take the job and then immediately hunt for something that works for your current situation better.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:34
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I would never trade a 5 min walk for a 1:30 drive. The quality of life improvement you get from a few extra thousand dollars is not worth it for such a soul sucking daily commute. It's hard to appreciate the difference until you live it. Not to mention the gas and wear and tear on your car. What do your job prospects look like otherwise once your current job expires?
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Nov 4, 2016 14:30
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I've got nothing going for me. I've applied to dozens of places and the answer I keep getting is generally not enough relevant work experience or a lack of skills. Plus no degree hurts a lot too. This is the first option I've gotten, and it isn't a good one honestly.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:42
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I would probably take the job and then immediately hunt for something that works for your current situation better. This is your best option and should be the default option for anyone risking unemployment.
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Nov 4, 2016 17:04
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I've got nothing going for me. I've applied to dozens of places and the answer I keep getting is generally not enough relevant work experience or a lack of skills. Plus no degree hurts a lot too. Your short term BATNA is not great because there are related companies looking to scoop up people on the cheap (who thinks this is a good way to get great employees?). But it sounds like it is also suffering because you don't have what employers consider a vital component to the job (the degree). Can you go to school? Have you considered other fields? If you are going to take a pay cut anyway, which it sounds like, maybe you can move to a field you have better prospects in or like more? What about UI? I'm not saying these are good options, I don't know what your responsibilities are. But there are other things you might be able to do other than take or leave this one job, no matter what you should probably working on your long term BATNA. Ninja Edit? Namarrgon posted:This is your best option and should be the default option for anyone risking unemployment. This is definitely true. It is the default option, but it isn't the only option.
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Nov 4, 2016 17:10
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Guinness posted:That's a big bummer, but it sounds like you were able to see it coming so that's a point in your corner. I just wanted to follow up on how this went after I asked for the increase. So, they said meeting my 30% increase wasn't in their budget and was impossible. They phoned me afterwards, we had an awkward call, and they sent a new and improved offer a few days later. This was around 10% over their initial offer and clarified the stock options I'd be eligible for which was nice. This speaks volumes to the value of negotiating, but I still don't think I'll be taking the position. It's a tough decision to make as it's essentially pitting my currently stable and easy job (with potential for growth) against something new and risky, with only a marginal salary increase.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:32
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a fleshy snood posted:I just wanted to follow up on how this went after I asked for the increase. I'd at least give them another shot and just play ultra hardball. "I'm sorry guys, I love your company but the increase just isn't worth the risk of changing jobs. I'd love to join but you and I will have to compromise at ______ for me to accept." Be prepared to accept on the spot if they say yes. ...be prepared for them to not say yes haha CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 23:52
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CarForumPoster posted:I'd at least give them another shot and just play ultra hardball. "I'm sorry guys, I love your company but the increase just isn't worth the risk of changing jobs. I'd love to join but you and I will have to compromise at ______ for me to accept." Be prepared to accept on the spot if they say yes. Eh, it sounds like he's already done that and this was their offer. Just walk away. If they really want you they know how to find you and what it would cost.
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Nov 8, 2016 00:56
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Jordan7hm posted:Eh, it sounds like he's already done that and this was their offer. Seconded. Politely decline and walk away. They know how to contact you if they change their mind (but they likely won't).
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Nov 8, 2016 02:25
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Thirded. Walking on opportunities gets easier as you do it more.
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Nov 8, 2016 15:33
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I got told that another group within my company has requested for me to move there for a second time within a year (the first was shot down by our chief engineer without even mentioning it to me). The person in charge of making that happen if it does asked if I'd be interested and said "I would be very interested if I get promoted to the next level, otherwise I love and trust my current group, manager, etc." Then I went to my manager and said hey this other group is trying to get me again, I realize our chief can shoot them down but a promotion would for sure keep me here. ...wish me luck, I am a little above average salary penetration wise now so getting promoted would put me well below average on the next level and a bit ahead career year wise. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 9, 2016 |
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Nov 9, 2016 00:29
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What is the experience like negotiating with a headhunter/recruiter? I had previously mentioned my current situation in this thread. I've been recently promoted at my current job and when I added my new title on LinkedIn, I got 4 messages and about 10 phone calls within the last week, which were completely unsolicited. One call stated their client is paying up to $95k. It's tempting, as I make ~$20k less now. I haven't called back yet, but I assume these are contract jobs that don't provide health insurance (which I need), and I have great insurance now ($58/mo for great health/dental/vision), so I'd have to take that into effect. Do recruiters typically give an offered salary amount out in an intro call? e: Is there any way to read reviews of how a recruiting firm is? Everything I find is reviews of working for the recruiter, not the 'recruitees' review of the process. Cacafuego fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 18:39
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Cacafuego posted:What is the experience like negotiating with a headhunter/recruiter? I had previously mentioned my current situation in this thread. I've been recently promoted at my current job and when I added my new title on LinkedIn, I got 4 messages and about 10 phone calls within the last week, which were completely unsolicited. One call stated their client is paying up to $95k. It's tempting, as I make ~$20k less now. Off the top of my head: 1. Recruiters often ask for exclusivity - it's okay to grant it to them verbally, but don't sign a contract. Then it's okay to wordlessly take it away whenever you want. This sounds a little sketchy, but it's nothing compared to the sketchiness of their whole industry - I do it without remorse. 2. Recruiters, in my experience, are good for 1-3 interviews, after that they'll stop putting in so much effort. If you reach this point, start looking at others. 3. They gossip. If you work in a cutthroat industry that fires people for disloyalty, be extra cautious, because they will throw your resume around with reckless abandon. Once I removed my current company name from my resume for this reason, just put the vague type of company, and the recruiter without my knowledge edited the company name back in before sending it out. I found out because an interviewer was holding a copy of my resume with the company name on it. I know multiple people who have been fired because word got around that they were interviewing, it's not just paranoia. 4. There are (at least?) two styles of recruiters. They generally get paid a portion of your first year's salary. Some of them take this to mean "place a lot of people, with little regard for how good a fit they are or maximizing their salary, just try to get them in and out". Others take it to mean "build relationships with clients to place them somewhere that fits well for them, and negotiate hard for their salary because that's how much you get paid". Obviously you should prefer the latter, but I have no idea how to determine that from a recruiter's initial pitch. One thing is to request that they get explicit permission from you for each individual company they send your resume to. They'll still sometimes ignore this. 5. Worst recruiter story: A friend worked with a recruiter briefly, and he didn't really take the time to understand his situation. (It was genuinely complicated and involved staying at his current company while doing other, overlapping stuff with another. All above-board, but non-standard for sure.) So my friend stopped taking his calls. When the recruiter couldn't get in touch, instead of letting it go, he called up his company's phone number from the website, introduced himself as a recruiter, and asked to speak to my friend by name. Needless to say my friend had to have an uncomfortable meeting where he had to explain to his boss that he was not, in fact, looking to leave the company, just dealing with a sketchy recruiter.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:30
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I started an entry-level job a few months back. The thing is, it's not entry-level although the salary and title are. Everyone at my work, including my bosses, agrees that I'm doing an amazing job, but the job that I'm actually doing is equivalent to a middle-management role. I've talked to people doing the same job as me in other parts of the same organisation about salary (heavily unionised workplace) and they are being paid around £10k more than me for equivalent responsibility. Is there a way to negotiate my salary up effectively? I have repeatedly raised the issue with my managers to half-hearted excuses about budget. The section which I am running cannot function without me and it will take them several months to find an equally effective replacement, if they can even do so without paying a more reasonable salary. I enjoy this role a lot but am unwilling to tolerate being underpaid any more. Should I start applying for other roles and use this as leverage against my current employers? Purple Prince fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 22:17
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CarForumPoster posted:I got told that another group within my company has requested for me to move there for a second time within a year (the first was shot down by our chief engineer without even mentioning it to me). The person in charge of making that happen if it does asked if I'd be interested and said "I would be very interested if I get promoted to the next level, otherwise I love and trust my current group, manager, etc." Then I went to my manager and said hey this other group is trying to get me again, I realize our chief can shoot them down but a promotion would for sure keep me here. My chief engineer shot down me moving saying I was critical to the program. My current group manager was slightly annoyed as they were trying to get a promotion for me already through the convoluted mess and don't like that continuing to do that looks like they're responding to me making a threat. Negotiating subverted :/
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Nov 11, 2016 23:42
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CarForumPoster posted:My chief engineer shot down me moving saying I was critical to the program. My current group manager was slightly annoyed as they were trying to get a promotion for me already through the convoluted mess and don't like that continuing to do that looks like they're responding to me making a threat. Negotiating subverted :/ Look for that promotion externally.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:50
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Jordan7hm posted:Look for that promotion externally.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:53
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CarForumPoster posted:My chief engineer shot down me moving saying I was critical to the program. My current group manager was slightly annoyed as they were trying to get a promotion for me already through the convoluted mess and don't like that continuing to do that looks like they're responding to me making a threat. Negotiating subverted :/ I realize this it too late for you, but for everyone else. Threatening to leave for an internal position will backfire on you in 90%+ of companies as your manager can block the transfer, has no reason to give you anything and will probably take it personally. Pretty much the only time it works is if they can't and for the same reason as an external offer I would generically recommend against taking a counter offer. As someone else said, you should leave.
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Nov 12, 2016 05:17
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CarForumPoster posted:My chief engineer shot down me moving saying I was critical to the program. My current group manager was slightly annoyed as they were trying to get a promotion for me already through the convoluted mess and don't like that continuing to do that looks like they're responding to me making a threat. Negotiating subverted :/ Yep - external promotion time now. I also agree with Asur 100%. The companies that actually let you do the internal transfer thing, even if they say they allow it, are few and far between.
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Nov 12, 2016 19:10
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It is an odd world where "this person is critical to our operations" is combined with "let's do absolutely nothing to make them happy". Yet, apparently, it works the majority of the time. I guess you just have to keep repeating how grateful they should be to have a job at all.
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Nov 12, 2016 19:23
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"This person is critical to our operations" is the code-phrase to exempt your worker from any transfer opportunities. You're not actually critical, this way your manager doesn't have to find a replacement worker (or get stuck down a man if you're in a reduce-by-attrition phase). HR isn't going to take "look, it's really inconvenient right now" as an answer usually, but their policy pretty much always has a clause about critical roles. That's also assuming you don't have literally the minimum possible number of employees in your department, in which case you are critical but not for a good reason. So long story short, any place that talks about lean staffing and claims to have robust internal transfer options is a lying sack of poo poo. They're (almost but not quite) mutually exclusive and completely incompatible.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:00
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That is an excellent point and I should probably be more open to the idea "the other person in the conversation is blatantly lying" if I went to get much better at this negotiation thing.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:56
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All of you commenting "you should leave" should hold your horses. This company, despite my complaints about a promotion, has been exceptionally good to me with 7.5% raises, above average (according to a few sites and talking with friends at other companies locally) starting salary and several performance based bonuses. They've also spent about $20,000 on education related things I wanted to do including sending me on trips to training I wanted to take with a few days vacation ahead of the start. I have a very good reputation here as well so to ditch that and leave would be hella stupid. I was also promised a promotion next year and I'll quote this a year from now and let you know how that goes. Grass ain't always greener. Sundae posted:That's also assuming you don't have literally the minimum possible number of employees in your department, in which case you are critical but not for a good reason. This is the situation, where I work is massively expanding. Roughly 5x the number employees over the course of about 4 years and there were already several hundred to begin with. We're lean because we literally can't hire qualified people fast enough and there are some barriers to entry to starting at this company for any position. The thing I am working needs 3 man-equivalent people but only has 2 including me and schedule-wise is in the middle of the topic I am versed in. I work in a niche engineering subject that takes a while to spool up people with. Sundae posted:Any place that talks about lean staffing and claims to have robust internal transfer options is a lying sack of poo poo. They're (almost but not quite) mutually exclusive and completely incompatible. Many, many people from the thing I am working on to the thing that wanted to take me have transferred and been promoted while doing so. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 00:53
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quote:This is the situation, where I work is massively expanding Yeah, this isn't quite the environment I was talking about. If you're growing as fast as you can and just haven't been able to bring in enough people for everything yet, that's very different from a company that scales its staff to the exact amount needed to do the steady-state job, with no overage or backup for turnover, vacation, illness, etc. My previous company dropped my department from 32 people to 7 while expanding the total workload, as an example. The justification was basically "because they can," except for one executive who liked to refer to it as "attrition by exhaustion." Everyone who tried to escape to other roles in the company was either blocked as "critical staff" or ended up with a multi-job situation (my former manager, as an example) where she technically started a new job, but it was with the understanding that she was still responsible for all of her old department's work as well for the next 6 months, subject to renewal at company's discretion if they couldn't find an appropriate replacement in 6 months. (SURPRISE!!! THEY DIDN'T even try!) If you can't get promoted / transferred because your company is expanding or growing and hasn't caught up to scale yet, or the project is seriously that critical to the company's future, blah blah, that's something where you could have a foreseeable end to the nonsense. It's when that period ends and they still call you critical that the old Get-Out Frog becomes the definite right answer. quote:Many, many people from the thing I am working on to the thing that wanted to take me have transferred and been promoted while doing so. So they just hate you, you mean? Like, unless I'm misreading this part, it's sounding like you're supporting that you should get out ASAP. (My interpretation: Lots of people get to transfer from your department and get promoted, but not you, because you're being called critical but the others weren't.) If I'm not totally off in left field in that interpretation, 
Sundae fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 02:12
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Sundae posted:So they just hate you, you mean? Like, unless I'm misreading this part, it's sounding like you're supporting that you should get out ASAP. (My interpretation: Lots of people get to transfer from your department and get promoted, but not you, because you're being called critical but the others weren't.) If I'm not totally off in left field in that interpretation, My department is basically 2-4 person niches rolled up under one manager to make a 20ish person "team" of these small disciplines. So far no one has transferred over because our program holds them until they have both been backfilled and the backfill is up to speed. Other departments have had many transfers (an example is mechanical drafting where there are 15+ people doing that one specific thing and it's both a subject that colleges actually teach undergrads/grad students and we have enough of them we can do this sort of horse trading) Suffice it to say I don't feel screwed by my company because they won't give me what I want right now. I'll still demand it, even if it is an impotent demand, and if I dont get it in a few years I'll move around. ...but to say move companies now would be ignoring the many factors that make it worth staying. By the way I actually like my current role better. The only incentive to move was to move up on the payscale and show a bit of career progression. My same-grad-year friends at other companies aren't getting paid as much, aren't getting a free master's degree they want, don't get paid a nice bonuses, etc. EDIT: I work in aerospace and each one of these 2-4 person teams issue statements that either allow the "item" to proceed or not. We can stop 500 peoples work if we say things like "unsafe". It's reasonable (IMO) to call us critical given the aforementioned circumstances. The guy backfilling me just simply isn't ready to make those calls yet. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 02:54
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It sounds to me like you got screwed and are trying to convince yourself that you didn't and thus don't need to leave. Your list of reasons to stay isn't very persuasive as you could potentially get everything you are getting and more at another company and this is ignoring that your manager torpedoed a transfer and promotion and also appears to have reduced the possibility that he'll promote you. Finally you being critical isn't your loving problem. I doubt you are, but if you were then the company should be compensating you accordingly and if an offer to transfer is compelling then they aren't and you should leave.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:42
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asur posted:It sounds to me like you got screwed and are trying to convince yourself that you didn't and thus don't need to leave. Your list of reasons to stay isn't very persuasive as you could potentially get everything you are getting and more at another company and this is ignoring that your manager torpedoed a transfer and promotion and also appears to have reduced the possibility that he'll promote you. Finally you being critical isn't your loving problem. I doubt you are, but if you were then the company should be compensating you accordingly and if an offer to transfer is compelling then they aren't and you should leave. I've outlined why what you're stating so matter-of-factly likely isn't true based on significant research. Getting transferred isn't the good thing. It's only good if I also get promoted along with the transfer, and they explicitly state they will promote me regardless, though if I get transferred I'd likely wiggle a promotion out of it in 4 months rather than 12. In the mean time they pay me decently, give me lots of things I want (Master's degree, out of state week long courses in subject I want to learn, etc.) give me monetary bonuses, recognition, etc.
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Nov 21, 2016 05:02
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CarForumPoster posted:Suffice it to say I don't feel screwed by my company because they won't give me what I want right now. I'll still demand it, even if it is an impotent demand, and if I dont get it in a few years I'll move around. you're never gonna get it because you've tried to transfer twice and stuck around when denied both times. literally everyone else in the department is gonna be ahead of you on the transfer priority list now if you were truly critical they'd offer you more money when denying your transfer because they'd be terrified to piss you off enough that you walked. no raise means they don't actually care if you walk. or your managers are as impotent as you if you're happy with your job then stay, but you should keep your mouth shut about transferring. you're ruining your career progression by showing you'll take no for an answer
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Nov 21, 2016 05:03
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I tried to transfer 0 times. I like my program but another, larger one that swallows up engineers from mine tried to take me twice. (The first time without asking me at all.) I tried to wiggle a promotion out of the attempt to take me the second time and was told I wouldn't be going.
CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 06:03
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I've just been transferred to a different department after doing my new position's responsibilities since the beginning of spring. This also prompted HR to notice they've been incorrectly paying me shift premium that entire time and hold it out my check resulting in an effective 70% pay cut until sometime in february. Should I even come back from lunch?
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Nov 21, 2016 18:21
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shame on an IGA posted:I've just been transferred to a different department after doing my new position's responsibilities since the beginning of spring. This also prompted HR to notice they've been incorrectly paying me shift premium that entire time and hold it out my check resulting in an effective 70% pay cut until sometime in february. Should I even come back from lunch? Yeah, but look for a new job immediately and don't give two weeks? Wow, I would be monumentally pissed.
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Nov 21, 2016 19:05
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Yeah that is garbage. I bet they will want that money back no matter what, so be prepared for them to send you a big bill for the balance due when you stop working there.
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Nov 21, 2016 19:43
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You will be promoted when it is useful for your superiors to promote you, hope you enjoy living life on their schedule. shame on an IGA posted:I've just been transferred to a different department after doing my new position's responsibilities since the beginning of spring. This also prompted HR to notice they've been incorrectly paying me shift premium that entire time and hold it out my check resulting in an effective 70% pay cut until sometime in february. Should I even come back from lunch? Your BATNA for the new employers you should absolutely have already spoken to is still making something now vs. making nothing if you up and leave. Best time to find a job is when you already have one.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:42
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So I am in this situation: Currently work as a butcher at a major retailer making $17/hr (32 hrs normal, 8 OT every week). I recently graduated college and have been applying and interviewing for positions in my field. My research into average salary is inconsistent because the titles for positions vary widely from place to place (research assistant vs research technician vs research technologist) but overall the average seems to be at or higher than what I make. I am honestly trying to get a minimum $40k/year as that will allow me to pay bills and save a little. How do I negotiate to get to this number? I unfortunately only got the opportunity to do one internship during school but I tried to take as many applicable classes during school that could transfer to a real lab. I've currently been trying to highlight the managerial aspects of my current job along with how the work is self driven, independent, time sensitive, etc.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:32
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Someone suggested I ask this in here. I got an email back about a job I applied for and they had a bunch of questions for me about my experience and then said "What is the salary range you are looking for I may have other positions that support the salary you are looking for if this one does not". So I looked up salaries for the position and found info on Glassdoor.com. Looks like across all companies/US the average is $60k for this position. There was one person who left anonymous salary range for the company that's asking me and it says they said it ranges from $54-$58k for the position. I don't necessarily have the credentials they're looking for, so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by asking for too much, but I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot for asking for too little. Also, I live in Boston, and it's been brought up to me that salary should be bumped higher for cost of living. From reading the OP it seems like I should not give a range, or a number first at all. So how do I word a reply in regard to the pay question she posed? Also, I know it takes confidence to negotiate, but I don't feel like I have what they are looking for in terms of experience and I'm also not a very confident person when it comes to interviews. Any advice on how to change that?
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Nov 29, 2016 19:16
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It depends on where that average is coming from (Metro area). For example, a COLA calculator says I'd need a ~70% upward adjustment to maintain my current standard of living if I moved from Mississippi to Boston, MA. I would, personally, say my number is 65K and then adjust up X% for Boston from where those salary reports are coming from. So, if someone in Jackson, MS is making 60K, the COLA adjustment means they should be asking for 104K. Only you know how realistic that is. Obviously you won't ask for 2x their rate, but you see how you can get a little more than you may think you can.
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Nov 29, 2016 19:49
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