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zxqv8 posted:Apparently this is the fault of late night fake-news comedy shows: Of all the many things that made this bullshit election happen I really don't think that's one of them.
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Nov 12, 2016 08:36
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Gail Wynand posted:The moment Ellison does anything remotely conciliatory, the Berniebros will turn on him just like they did with Warren. But see, Clinton was never going to conciliate and in fact would absolutely head the GOP's heads off live once elected. Is conciliation only a thing that the left should do?
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Nov 12, 2016 08:37
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Pollyanna posted:I hardly comprehend it. I think it's an economic thing? Basically the same thing as "compassionate capitalism", except it's even faker? The short version is that after the great depression in the 20's FDR came on the scene and did a bunch of awesome socialist poo poo called the New Deal. This breed of "New Deal" democrat was popular for decades and was characterized by an outlook very similar to Bernie Sanders. Now fast forward to the 90's where Bill Clinton learned that you can often win by abandoning your base and appealing to the center-right (which actually existed at the time) professional STEM major/management class. He did this with stuff like forcing welfare recipients to work or not receive pay, signing trade agreements that allowed for outsourcing, and doubling down on the drug war. This new corporate democrat became known as the "neoliberal" wing of the party and has acted as the leadership ever since. Neoliberal has become something of a bad word in the last 5 years or so as people start to realize that this compromise resulted in a party that stands for little outside of getting their donors more money and doesn't do well in elections since people generally would rather vote for a real Republican over a Republican-lite. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 08:41
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readingatwork posted:Thats... not that far off actually. In fact, New Deal liberalism (minus the price controls) is the epitome of neoliberalism.
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Nov 12, 2016 08:44
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cheese posted:I was just about to reply to that comment. There is no reason to not say that you will give it a shot and then immediately declare yourself in opposition when he does insane thing on day 3. Im with a woman who just got back from a deployment from there and she said they use them sporadically and are very serious about security. She's more worried about her friends who were killed there. I'd just like to interrupt our purity slapfight with the cold truth that we are currently involved in two wars. Good Americans are in foreign countries and no one seems to have mentioned it at all ON VETERANS DAY
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Nov 12, 2016 08:44
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Two important parts of this story I feel you left out: * The New Deal was distinctly not socialism, and this was a problem. It was designed as a stop gap to keep the system going after it's near-collapse in the Great Depression and to actively prevent a socialist movement from brewing. It also explicitly cut racial minorities out from most of its benefits, along with the benefits of the GI Bill and other post-war programs, which is also important. * Bill Clinton was a bad person and kind of a dick President but he didn't spring from the ether. The Republicans took advantage of white backlash to racial progress in the '60s and created the Southern Strategy to peel off white working class voters and convince them to vote for dogwhistle racist candidates who happened to also be anti-labor. These candidates dismantled the labor unions and the New Deal and stole away the Democratic base. Bill Clinton was a rational, if failed, attempt to compensate for this and mitigate the damage by building a new coalition and trying to move with the electorate. It massively backfired and so here we are now.
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Nov 12, 2016 08:46
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Agnosticnixie posted:But see, Clinton was never going to conciliate and in fact would absolutely head the GOP's heads off live once elected. Is conciliation only a thing that the left should do?
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Nov 12, 2016 08:47
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readingatwork posted:The short version is that after the great depression in the 20's FDR came on the scene and did a bunch of awesome socialist poo poo called the New Deal. This breed of "New Deal" democrat was popular for decades and was characterized by an outlook very similar to Bernie Sanders. Now fast forward to the 90's where Bill Clinton learned that you can often win by abandoning your base and appealing to the center-right (which actually existed at the time) professional STEM major/management class. He did this with stuff like forcing welfare recipients to work or not receive pay, signing trade agreements that allowed for outsourcing, and doubling down on the drug war. This new corporate democrat became known as the "neoliberal" wing of the party and has acted as the leadership ever since. Neoliberal has become something of a bad word in the last 5 years or so as people start to realize that this compromise resulted in a party that stands for little outside of getting their donors more money and doesn't do well in elections since people generally would rather vote for a real Republican over a Republican-lite. What the gently caress, that is horrifying. So "neoliberal" means...not liberal at all. That's literally FYGM.
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Nov 12, 2016 08:47
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Stereotype posted:I'd just like to interrupt our purity slapfight with the cold truth that we are currently involved in two wars. Good Americans are in foreign countries and no one seems to have mentioned it at all ON VETERANS DAY And guess who's gonna continue those wars? Honestly, both candidates would have done so. 
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Nov 12, 2016 08:48
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Pollyanna posted:And guess who's gonna continue those wars? Honestly, both candidates would have done so. It's really early to tell, but it seems like Trump's idea is to antagonize China, which he still plans to do, while corralling Pacific allies as a bulwark. Those Pacific allies include Russia. Could the rest of Washington go along with this?
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Nov 12, 2016 08:52
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Lightning Knight posted:Two important parts of this story I feel you left out: To note: after Republicans appealed to those New Deal voters who wanted to keep black people out of their unions and social programs, liberal candidates lost five of the six elections from 1968 to 1988, and the win was because of Watergate, not policy. Clinton style centrist Democrats won the popular vote in six of the seven elections1992-2016, with the loss being against an incumbent running on a "don't change horses in midstream" wartime campaign. Two of those popular wins were electoral losses, and those also happened to be the rightmost and leftmost Democratic platforms of that era.
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Nov 12, 2016 08:54
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Pollyanna posted:I hardly comprehend it. I think it's an economic thing? Basically the same thing as "compassionate capitalism", except it's even faker? No, neoliberalism is a comprehensive philosophic position in national economy on what the role of regulation and state spending is in the national economy. Mainly, that its primary purpose is to enable free competition while keeping its own role minimal. In practice this means de-regulation, tax cuts and privatization. Its assumptions are derived from a number of political philosophies but the primary one is classical liberalism which is a strand of liberalism which believes freedom is represented by individuals ability to form voluntary contracts with one another. Pollyanna posted:What the gently caress, that is horrifying. So "neoliberal" means...not liberal at all. That's literally FYGM. The above is needed to answer this. There's no one 'liberalism', modern social democracy is based on the polar opposite of classical liberalism, egalitarianism, which believes that people are free when they have the resources needed to make the decisions they want. Of course there is nothing voluntary about forced redistribution so these position are what academia calls ontologically opposed as their base assumptions are incompatible. These are both 'liberalism'. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 08:54
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Gail Wynand posted:By conciliatory I mean conciliatory to the people in the Democratic Party to the right of Bernie in any way. Concilating with the democratic party right got us the shitshow that turned UHC into the ACA so like, at this point it just becomes maintain the status quo, don't rock the boat, we want to line our pockets. The right isn't what needs to be conciliated with.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:02
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Hope Trump supporters are strapped in and ready for at least 4 years of this from congressional Republicans https://twitter.com/jasonbordoff/status/797262654746279937 And this from the White House https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/797301426376626176 This seems like a very dangerous mix!
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Nov 12, 2016 09:05
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Agnosticnixie posted:Concilating with the democratic party right got us the shitshow that turned UHC into the ACA so like, at this point it just becomes maintain the status quo, don't rock the boat, we want to line our pockets. The right isn't what needs to be conciliated with.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:06
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Gail Wynand posted:Yeah the ACA was kinda poo poo. Too bad that we didn't go with the much better UHC plan originally proposed by...I don't know, some random lady, definitely not that neoliberal bitch Hillary... Stopped clocks, etc. Her actual presidential platform didn't include the plan until she was attacked from the left and she spent most of the primaries effectively railing about how unrealistic a plan similar to hers was. Am I supposed to be impressed by a movement that includes Kissinger and Negroponte? Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 09:09
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Expect things like this in Congress as well. The GOP has the most power it's had in half a century and they're going to squander it on this poo poo while the Dems play kingmaker in the senate.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:10
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Maybe they will be so caught up in internal squabbles they'll forgot to dick over the American people. Trump's America: Everyone hold still and they won't see us
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Nov 12, 2016 09:10
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Xand_Man posted:Maybe they will be so caught up in internal squabbles they'll forgot to dick over the American people. Unfortunately America is hopelessly broken already that in-action also constitutes dicking people over.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:11
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Agnosticnixie posted:Stopped clocks, etc. Her actual presidential platform didn't include the plan until she was attacked from the left and she spent most of the primaries effectively railing about how unrealistic a plan similar to hers was. lmao, she was pushing UHC back in the nineties if not earlier.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:14
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Pollyanna posted:What the gently caress, that is horrifying. So "neoliberal" means...not liberal at all. That's literally FYGM. Neoliberals are liberals up to the point that they will support intentionally bland social justice causes so they can feel "liberal" without it affecting their bottom line or actually disrupt their lifestyles. The biggest incident I can think of of this was that twitter post from the Huffington Post board of directors congratulating themselves from going from an entirely white male board to an entirely white female board. Gail Wynand posted:Yeah the ACA was kinda poo poo. Too bad that we didn't go with the much better UHC plan originally proposed by...I don't know, some random lady, definitely not that neoliberal bitch Hillary... One of the major lessons you should take away from this is that dissent isn't some form of misogyny or bigotry. We absolutely lost this election because people like you decided to make any criticism against bountiful abuela a gendered or bigoted insult. You can angrily lash out at people all you want, but the party is either going to move to the left despite your best interests or (deservedly) die. edit: Pretty sure I didn't hear any sort of claim of UHC this time around. In fact, I'm pretty sure the people that were championing it were scoffed at for being too idealistic and unreasonable. Turns out they took that message to heart and stayed at home. Business Gorillas fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 09:14
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Fojar38 posted:I guess that protests don't count if they're organized by Democrats It's not that protests don't count, it's that these aren't "paid protestors" and anyone suggesting that they are being paid as some sort of shadowy conspiracy is indicting (either directly or in cowardly dogwhistles) George Soros, because the part of the GOP base that believes in shadowy conspiracies are the same people that like to bitch about Jews (and also pretend to have no idea who Sheldon Adelson is and what party he funds, but that's another matter.) When media pays these nuts lip service they're indoctrinating the common man into their thought process.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:24
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Nonsense posted:It's really early to tell, but it seems like Trump's idea is to antagonize China, which he still plans to do, while corralling Pacific allies as a bulwark. Those Pacific allies include Russia. Could the rest of Washington go along with this? This could go very wrong indeed. The situation between China and Japan is very tense now as it is. The last thing we need is the orange buffoon marching in and antagonising one side. We need to sit down and talk about it like adults. For a man who wrote a book on making deals (which was relatively well-received) Trump doesn't seem to be very good at compromise.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:25
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cgo posted:This could go very wrong indeed. The situation between China and Japan is very tense now as it is. The last thing we need is the orange buffoon marching in and antagonising one side. We need to sit down and talk about it like adults. For a man who wrote a book on making deals (which was relatively well-received) Trump doesn't seem to be very good at compromise. Obviously the art of the deal is they compromise and you don't.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:26
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Fojar38 posted:Expect things like this in Congress as well. The GOP has the most power it's had in half a century and they're going to squander it on this poo poo while the Dems play kingmaker in the senate. i'm actually worried about this because if this is our timeline it proves that the accelerationists were actually right and we'll never hear the end of it
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Nov 12, 2016 09:27
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Craptacular! posted:It's not that protests don't count, it's that these aren't "paid protestors" and anyone suggesting that they are being paid as some sort of shadowy conspiracy is indicting (either directly or in cowardly dogwhistles) George Soros, because the part of the GOP base that believes in shadowy conspiracies are the same people that like to bitch about Jews (and also pretend to have no idea who Sheldon Adelson is and what party he funds, but that's another matter.) The media is absolutely going to pay these idiots lip service because the second the people that own the media sniff out that the left is angry and ready to revolt in this country, they're going to do everything to discredit it. See: Literally any other time our country has flirted with leftist ideology in history.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:30
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Business Gorillas posted:The media is absolutely going to pay these idiots lip service because the second the people that own the media sniff out that the left is angry and ready to revolt in this country, they're going to do everything to discredit it. Imagine the opposition Corbyn is facing in the UK, times a thousand.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:31
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Fojar38 posted:Expect things like this in Congress as well. The GOP has the most power it's had in half a century and they're going to squander it on this poo poo while the Dems play kingmaker in the senate. Reminds me of the New Hampshire state house post-2010. The NH Republicans got 300+ of the 400 State House seats and fell into infighting between the different factions.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:07
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Pollyanna posted:What the gently caress, that is horrifying. So "neoliberal" means...not liberal at all. That's literally FYGM. Liberalism means an ideology of unrestricted property rights and free market everywhere but in the US. Neoliberalism refers to a new wave in market liberal thinking, not to American liberalsim.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:08
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Agnosticnixie posted:Stopped clocks, etc. Her actual presidential platform didn't include the plan until she was attacked from the left and she spent most of the primaries effectively railing about how unrealistic a plan similar to hers was. Yeah, she was really working on her platform as FLOTUS
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Nov 12, 2016 10:09
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Yeah, she was really working on her platform as FLOTUS Oh my god that av 
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Nov 12, 2016 10:11
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Business Gorillas posted:The media is absolutely going to pay these idiots lip service because the second the people that own the media sniff out that the left is angry and ready to revolt in this country, they're going to do everything to discredit it. I suppose the left could adopt the conservative attack line that the media are dishonest liars? My more leftist friends don't trust the MSM for treating Sanders unfairly during the primary.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:15
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Pollyanna posted:What the gently caress, that is horrifying. So "neoliberal" means...not liberal at all. That's literally FYGM. No, "neoliberal" means "actually liberal". What you think liberalism means is really social democracy; liberals have always been FYGM. The Liberty that Liberals define themselves with is Liberty for property owning businessmen to gently caress you over. That's the keystone of their entire ideology. Freedom and liberty for the bourgeoisie to do whatever. That's why abolitionists were criticized by liberals, they were impeding on the "right" of rich people to own slaves. Same re: the labour movement. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 10:22
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Swedish media claims that someone just got shot at a anti-trump demonstration but I literally cannot find a media mention of it anywhere else. EDIT: Nevermind, here it is http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-idUSKBN1343CO?il=0 Lets not hope this is not the first death. 
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 11:02
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Hilldawg was more interested in ensuring that the banks had diverse boards than in breaking them up so another collapse doesn't happen.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:12
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Has this been posted? https://newrepublic.com/article/138674/beware-donald-trumps-infrastructure-planquote:Democrats think they can work with Trump to repair the country's roads and bridges. But there's a hitch. quote:But that’s not likely. Trump’s “Contract with the American Voter” (get to know this document) stresses that his American Energy and Infrastructure Act “leverages public-private partnerships, and private investments through tax incentives, to spur $1 trillion in infrastructure investment over ten years. It is revenue neutral.” quote:Does this sound familiar? It’s the common justification for privatization, and it’s been a disaster virtually everywhere it’s been tried. First of all, this specifically ties infrastructure—designed for the common good—to a grab for profits. Private operators will only undertake projects if they promise a revenue stream. You may end up with another bridge in New York City or another road in Los Angeles, which can be monetized. But someplace that actually needs infrastructure investment is more dicey without user fees. Hope is a lie.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:31
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#NeverDean has been a thing for the last 24 hours. Good, good.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:57
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Stereotype posted:I'd just like to interrupt our purity slapfight with the cold truth that we are currently involved in two wars. Good Americans are in foreign countries and no one seems to have mentioned it at all ON VETERANS DAY This was a topic recently on Reuter's War College. Basically we have been, for a long time now, unofficially fighting wars in the middle-east and we've been doing so by sending marines over there and saying they're there to train Iraqi forces. Except that's mostly bullshit. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/war-college/id1023774600?mt=2&i=377124721 War College is the best podcast about war and basically anyone with any interest in politics should be subscribed to it.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:11
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Considering that Trump is back pedaling on a lot of issues, has there been any backlash from his base?
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Nov 12, 2016 13:14
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Non Serviam posted:Considering that Trump is back pedaling on a lot of issues, has there been any backlash from his base? Probably, we can only hope.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:17
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