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Nov 12, 2016 10:27
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goatse.cx posted:Certain leftists like freddie the beer/jacobin crew are going too far in asserting identity politics caused this failure. laid off steel workers aren't, like, logging onto tumblr and getting yelled at by teens. identity politics exists outside tumblr and is an actual thing irl, you know this right?
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Nov 12, 2016 10:35
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Just to break it out of the typical race narrative, the Clinton campaign sold their supporters on an identity of moral certitude. Hillary supporters were the White Hats combating the deplorable Black Hats, in an epic struggle for the heart and soul of America. It wasn't just enough to vote for Hillary, if you ever criticized her or her campaign you were a bad person. Khaleesi cannot be questioned.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:50
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Padams posted:http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism Just something to highlight that I feel I'm seeing come up a lot (perhaps more on facebook than here)- many Dems who have appointed themselves as the gatekeepers of GOOD RATIONALITY (the motherFUCKING love science!!), have decided that the problem is that the central US is just doomed to die and it's a fact, and it's a fact and these loving people can't just accept facts. This is retarded. The problems facing the rust belt and similar areas are by no means deterministic. There are no facts to it. It is ideology. This pronouncement of death is absurd straight-line projecting and the result of people with little imagination for what else could be. In the early 1900s, I'm sure very smart and facts based people could not imagine a world that would not be simply one large factory. Now we imagine the world will be one giant self-driving Uber where we all sit in the back drinking soylent. They lack imagination because no one in this group dare questions the assumptions of supply-side economics, monetary policies, and silicon-valley philosophy that assumes technology must march forward, and it's only purpose is to replace people. I know there are plenty of marxists on SA who can argue against supply-side so I'm not going to rehearse that stuff- but on this idea that we're on an endless trajectory to total automation, I wanted to share this: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2015/04/29/dont-blame-the-robots-for-lost-manufacturing-jobs/ . Automation (or rather, the expansion of robotics in to manufacturing) does not strongly correlate with manufacturing job loss. If you decide your company strategy is to get rid of labor, you will get rid of workers. You can find machines that replace your workers, or machines that make your workers do their jobs better, or allow your workers to do more. There is no god-like automation market force that grabs these people by the pussy and forces them to take this approach. Also, the vision of automation being absolutely cheaper has by no means panned out. http://www.ibtimes.com/industrial-robots-could-be-16-less-costly-employ-people-2025-1811980. By 2025, smart people project- not know, but project- that automation could reduce business expenses by 16%. Maybe. I'm sure in some very limited cases they can verify it- but at this point we're at the same point companies were at with offshoring several years ago. Everyone thought they were going to save so much money sending jobs overseas! Just look at the hourly wage estimate and boom, FACTS BABY. All great until the work actually got to India and China and American firms found themselves with processes taking 2/3/4 times as long as they expected, product quality drops, and massive overhead to steer communications around the world. But hey, this time it's Google saying it'll work- and Google's certainly never been wrong before... And anyone who thinks they can't improve the economic livelihood of a section of their own country should not be attempting to run a party with far loftier goals of ending racism, ending sexism, reversing climate change, or getting people to Mars.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:52
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And if you bought into that narrative then evil won the campaign. Instead of the american people.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:52
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Martout posted:identity politics exists outside tumblr and is an actual thing irl, you know this right? I think it's greatly overblown.
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Nov 12, 2016 10:54
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it wasn't a huge plank of hillary's PR strategy in any case, it was celebrity endorsements, the bizzare 'drumpf' slogan, and the 'trump is a russian agent' line that nobody outside of wonk-poisoned d&d posters bought
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Nov 12, 2016 10:58
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https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/797116812970246144
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Nov 12, 2016 11:06
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goatse.cx posted:I think it's greatly overblown. The importance of identity politics in the positive sense is definitely overblown, but I think what people mean by it more often than not is the deflection of any criticism and dissent as racism and woman-hating, because liberals are obviously and objectively right on all issues, so there's no way anybody could have a reason to vote against them aside from trying to keep black people down.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:20
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Helpful OP. I just e-mailed the VT DNC about supporting Keith. It was tough, but I successfully avoided accusing them of colluding with Clinton or calling them corrupt shills. I also somehow managed to not berate them for nominating a garbage "anti-gun" gubernatorial candidate in VT. To anyone else writing a letter: just be honest about your frustrations but not sanctimonious ~ 
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Nov 12, 2016 11:29
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steinrokkan posted:The importance of identity politics in the positive sense is definitely overblown, but I think what people mean by it more often than not is the deflection of any criticism and dissent as racism and woman-hating, because liberals are obviously and objectively right on all issues, so there's no way anybody could have a reason to vote against them aside from trying to keep black people down. It didn't help that there were a ton of alt-right scum claiming the mantle of Trump's ascendancy. That definitely skewed perceptions of anybody who would support Trump, but if a third of the country was behind him they obviously can't all be Pepe Nazis.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:43
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Pick posted:The mantra has long been, essentially, "learn to code or die" as if programming hasn't hit its own problems already. "We'll just get them all really good service jo http://www.npr.org/2016/10/29/499867685/self-driving-trucks "
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Nov 12, 2016 12:08
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goatse.cx posted:Certain leftists like freddie the beer/jacobin crew are going too far in asserting identity politics caused this failure. laid off steel workers aren't, like, logging onto tumblr and getting yelled at by teens. Very recent example: High school teacher tells students that all white people are racist You don't have to go to tumblr to find this poo poo, it's all over the place. And the first google result when I googled to find the link for this is a uk newspaper, that's how far awareness of this spread. You better believe people on the right deliberately spread word of this poo poo around for months as far and wide as they can because this poo poo is pure gold for them. It's not the only problem but it's part of the failure.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:10
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can't wait for this to be in textbooks about the fall of the us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJgM4_C3gvE
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Nov 12, 2016 12:13
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resar posted:The dems don't just need a mesage, they need to actually follow though. Obama had a message of hope, change, and getting the American economy working again. At the end of his 8 years the American working class still hasn't recovered from the recession and the best they have to show for electing him is a lovely insurance plan. I am deep into my own farts here but I truly believe Obama was genuine about Hope and Change and really did not only want to help these people but was looking for ideas for how to do so and had plans of his own. I believe the reason Obama actually failed to deliver on his promise to the working class is because, even though he had both the House and the Senate at the start of it, he did not have a filibuster proof majority and the Republicans refused to come to the table, legislate and compromise and instead dedicated themselves to obstruction and blocking loving everything. Which they openly gloated about and were promptly rewarded for in 2010 when the electorate didn't care that they were a bunch of petulant children and gave them more of the House and quite a bit of the Senate too. And he really did try to reach out to them. He proposed poo poo they actually wanted like criminal justice reform and immigration reform but they did not go for it. You could see and hear his frustration at how powerless he was and how goddamn insufferable the Republicans were being. Sure, maybe Obama was just as much of an owned corporate stooge as everyone else and was just stringing the desperate middle class along like everyone else. But I truly believe he was legit. Guys, I love Obama so much okay?
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Nov 12, 2016 12:18
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Jenner posted:I am deep into my own farts here but I truly believe Obama was genuine about Hope and Change and really did not only want to help these people but was looking for ideas for how to do so and had plans of his own. i dunno how you can still say this when he authorizes the DAPL against native american wishes
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Nov 12, 2016 12:26
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I have a draft of my own letter to badger people about the chairmanshipquote:The election of Donald Trump must serve as a long-needed wakeup call to our party. The last 30 years of Democratic economic policy have been shaped, in large part, by the third-way centrism of the Clinton family. While this has always been the preferable choice to the slash-and-burn economic plans of the Republican party, it has also been a policy that has left increasing numbers of Americans behind. Following the 2008 economic collapse, the American people handed our party power at many levels of government, with the implicit and explicit promises we had made to change the financial system that had led so many Americans into debt, foreclosure, and unemployment. Looking back at the last 8 years, can we really say that we lived up to these promises of change? The economic recovery, such as it is, has been a very good one for Wall Street and the donor class - but for all the ridicule that we have heaped on Republican policies, our party is still telling the American people that they just need to wait for this recovery to “trickle down” to the middle and working classes.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:35
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too prolix
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Nov 12, 2016 12:37
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goatse.cx posted:it wasn't a huge plank of hillary's PR strategy in any case, it was celebrity endorsements, the bizzare 'drumpf' slogan, and the 'trump is a russian agent' line that nobody outside of wonk-poisoned d&d posters bought Accusing your political opponents of being Russian agents is a proud American tradition stretching back to at least the 1950s 
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Nov 12, 2016 12:37
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i called the head of my state's democratic party, hopefully i'll be able to talk to him soon. he should support bernie though, he was very interested in bernie back during the primaries and our state voted for him
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Nov 12, 2016 12:37
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Obama was a center-left technocrat. The phrase 'identity politics' is loaded because it can mean everything from "I think trans people should exist" to "actually, we need to find a way to intersectionally and inclusively decide on the best ovo-vegan pancake." Identity-ONLY politics, as in, politics as quiz, politics as Harry Potter/GoT, was the figleaf for Neo liberal hegemony. And it's a Figleaf Hillary wanted; remember, she defended her status as an outsider candidate by saying "I'm a woman! Can't get more outsider than that!"
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Nov 12, 2016 12:40
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Jose posted:lol lmao look how they are trying to blame everything except the bad canidate they picked for the primary. Let's run a wonk artificial establishment politician at a time in which people are angry over business as usual.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:41
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Baloogan posted:too prolix probably, it'll get shorter after coffee
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Nov 12, 2016 12:46
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also nothing proves you really vote dem like an overly long complaint letter
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Nov 12, 2016 12:51
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steinrokkan posted:The importance of identity politics in the positive sense is definitely overblown, but I think what people mean by it more often than not is the deflection of any criticism and dissent as racism and woman-hating, because liberals are obviously and objectively right on all issues, so there's no way anybody could have a reason to vote against them aside from trying to keep black people down. That's true enough. And I think as the email leak has shown, this is a strategy that dems employed cynically. I think this is an important distinction to make, between Hamilton-style phony liberal elite tokenism and genuine expression of minority grievances like BLM. goatse.cx has issued a correction as of 12:58 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 12:54
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CheesyDog posted:also nothing proves you really vote dem like an overly long complaint letter
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Nov 12, 2016 12:55
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lazorexplosion posted:Very recent example: We just can't tolerate this kind of poo poo any more. It's a narrative of moral certitude that only people insulated in a particular class bubble could ever possibly take seriously, and most of us don't say anything about it because they're all so loving annoying to argue with - or you're threatened with a ban or a probe, or maybe in real life you might lose your job - because they'll dogmatically smear you as a sexist or a racist just because you didn't carefully qualify your lingo and committed the grave faux pas of violating their own personal rules of conduct. We're done with it. Queers, women, minorities, they're all in danger now from people who think that Trump's America is going to protect them from the law - whether it's true or not - and we have to move swiftly to make sure that they're protected. We can't have that immediate real need for solidarity be discredited by some socially retarded pipsqueak who's never even worked a single loving day in their life.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:She was confronted by a woman at a donor's dinner in South Carolina (?) and just kept going "let me talk, let me talk" until she was led away by security. Then Clinton immediately went "Now back to the issues." Its really weird being an actual black person in america and being lectured to by liberal elites about the real issues. Blacks are still in the tank of dems but the new generation, not so much. Minorities aren't going to be a solid block anymore because Dems haven't done anything for us since 1965 or whatever. temple has issued a correction as of 13:11 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 13:07
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temple posted:I know that person irl. A does a lot of work outside of trolling candidates and has a large network. And that person, like a lot of their peers, wrote in bozo the clown this election. excuse me, let me finish and I'll be willing to address this post
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Nov 12, 2016 13:13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzXOde57jQY
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Nov 12, 2016 13:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lLxlvLx__A
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Nov 12, 2016 13:16
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Zikan posted:everyone needs to remember that beyond the presidential we need to prepare for the state and local elections as well because... Oh holy gently caress we're doomed. Fast Luck posted:These were Bernie's appointments to the platform committee  How is Bernie so good? How did we get Bernie? We don't deserve Bernie. Condiv posted:i dunno how you can still say this when he authorizes the DAPL against native american wishes From what I have heard, and again I am in a well of farts, he told them to back off and cut it out but the House and Congress were like, "get hosed!" Obama has stopped pipelines before, I don't see why he would balk at this one. But I do agree with posters here. Democrats are being huge pussies. We don't loving speak up on policies or the issues because we'd rather cover our asses. Obama should seriously speak up about DAPL in defense of the Native Americans and I have no idea why he hasn't. It's not like he has to behave himself to secure the Presidency for Hillary anymore. Maybe he is a poo poo but nope nope nope head straight up my rear end. Obama good. Love Obama. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Extremely Hot Take incoming: Alienated people who voted for Trump were absolutely right to do so, because if Clinton had won the establishment would claim to be validated (despite losing Congress, and downtickets) and then nothing would have changed. Their lives would still be mired in the poo poo while every woke pipsqueak confidently asserted that they don't matter.  Yeah... yeah... you're right. We needed a wake up call, change needed to happen.But President loving Donald Trump? Augh. gently caress, gently caress, gently caress. quote:Hawkish Democrats getting baited into wars. *breaks out her tinfoil hat and places it on her head* Hello. Once upon a time I ran a D&D 3.5 campaign where the PCs were sent on quests and missions and such by the king of a kingdom. Seems simple enough. He sent them out to slay a local goblin encampment. He sent them out to take out a den of bandits who were disrupting the trade routes He convinced them to kill off a powerful group in one of the neighboring cities by feeding them a ton of lies and propaganda that they believed without question. Eventually they got pretty high level and he was still sending them out to do random clean up and whatnot. When they stopped getting experience for the low level encounters the party sorcerer finally got frustrated and asked why the king did not just send his military to dispose of the skeletons in the graveyard The king bluntly told them that he had no military. He had strong alliances with all the neighboring kingdoms through the power of trade and marriage arrangements. Having a standing military around would just worry his neighbors who would make a bigger military and then their neighbors would make an even bigger military which he would have to respond to with his own bigger military and so on. It was much cheaper and more efficient to simply hire a group of adventurers to handle this stuff than invest in a standing military which he would then have to keep happy and fed or they might depose him. The money he saved was used to keep his alliances strong and make himself insanely wealthy. The party got fed up and left to find higher level encounters and the king hired a bard to spread the message for his dire need for adventurers. The moral of this story. When you invest a lot of money into something (and we invest a lot of money into our military) you wanna get your money's worth. So we throw our huge over funded military around willy-nilly playing world police because that money has gotta go somewhere. It helps that the military contractors who have plants that make jobs in states pay big money to their campaigns and make big money making things to supply the military even when the military itself has said it does not need all this stuff. Military bases in states have their own microcosm of car dealerships and diners and bars surrounding them and those bases and the soldiers within can often be the only ecomony in that area. The only thing keeping people employed and creating demand. You can see why there is a lot of resistance to closing bases. Finally, starting a war makes the military contractors very rich and if it's in a lovely oil rich country it makes the oil executives very rich. Which makes their donations to the campaigns of politicians very generous. *takes her tinfoil hat off*
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Nov 12, 2016 13:24
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You are part of the problem. check post history and sex vid
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Nov 12, 2016 13:41
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Fidel Castronaut posted:I remember when there was this little voice in my head that said "Remember Kerry? You can't win based purely on fear of the other guy!" But then the louder voice in my head said "But this is different because it's Trump and he is far scarier than Bush was." Pro-tier post.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:42
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Lastgirl posted:You definitely did. The optics ghost was not safe for Bernie. i think it was mostly fine for bernie, only people who are deep into being pieces of poo poo would psyche themselves up with those photoshops of bernie bowing in the back of an interracial porn shoot
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Nov 12, 2016 13:43
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:There's no reason for anybody on the Left to treat this reactionary nonsense with kid gloves. It's torches and pitchforks time. 'torches and pitchforks' is the attitude people should have in general the right took a torches and pitchforks attitude of massive opposition to the illegitimate usurper obama, who was a dangerous authoritarian. this paid dividends in 2010, 2014 and ultimately 2016 yet obama won his elections fair and square, by large margins with no irregularities. trump & the republicans won with a minority in a lopsided map, after an unprecedentedly dishonest campaign and criminal election interference by foreign intelligence and a republican fbi director, both magnified by a craven news media that sold the country out. his legitimacy is genuinely compromised and this should not be forgotten or normalised. it should be used to mobilise resistance and overthrow. maybe challenging the legitimacy of the president is bad for the republic. but guess what: so is trump, ten times more. the case for decorum in the face of right-wing extremity applied while it looked like clinton would succeed obama and relatively normal politics would continue. in that situation you can make an argument (challengable) for maintaining standards of discussion until demographic changes force the republicans to reform. that's not the case any more. white supremacy is still capable of taking power in america by mobilising at moments of liberal-left weakness. don't give them any more until you've put them to bed forever. your country has been stolen from you. feel free to get mad about taking it back, imo
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Nov 12, 2016 13:45
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Jenner posted:From what I have heard, and again I am in a well of farts, he told them to back off and cut it out but the House and Congress were like, "get hosed!" Obama has stopped pipelines before, I don't see why he would balk at this one. last night or a bit earlier it came out that obama was approving the rest of the DAPL, basically steam rolling native americans turns out that was false: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-approve-dakota-access-pipeline-231255 hopefully he fights it as long as he can
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Nov 12, 2016 13:45
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goatse.cx posted:Certain leftists like freddie the beer/jacobin crew are going too far in asserting identity politics caused this failure. laid off steel workers aren't, like, logging onto tumblr and getting yelled at by teens. On the other hand, Scott Lemeiux and the Lawyers, Guns, Money / balloonjuice crowd are taking the position that Comey and voter suppression are wholly to blame, while pointing to any criticism of the DNC platform (the one in practice, not the one adopted for political convenience) as the efforts of white supremacist leftists to abandon everyone else.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:48
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Condiv posted:last night or a bit earlier it came out that obama was approving the rest of the DAPL, basically steam rolling native americans *From deep within her own rear end* I never stopped believing in you Obama. 😍 ---------------- I really wish we had the numbers to filibuster in the House but we do not and it will probably be a long time before we do. It's a shame. Because we could bring Keith Ellison in to explain to Republicans what sharia law really is. I mean, they wouldn't listen and wouldn't care and it would change no minds or do anything but it would be cathartic.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:50
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also don't be too worried about the whole 'hermetic partisan media bubble' thing, given that the mainstream media is going to be unable to deal with a trump presidency. they were bad during the campaign, and now trump & the republicans have all the resources of the federal government and the security state to pressure corporate and independent outlets. never forget to look outside your own house, particularly while resisting the attempts to mobilise anti-racism in service of classism, but you're going to need something of an independent information infrastructure just to keep a grip on the truth remember the projection rule from the campaign: everything trump & the republicans accused obama of, they are actually guilty of themselves
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Nov 12, 2016 13:51
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