|
Lightning Knight posted:Poor Mexicans wouldn't be used to destroy your nice union job if they weren't poor in the first place, dude. That's on us. No. It's is NOT the fault of the working class that wealthy rear end in a top hat business owners exploited Mexico's underclass to undermine their pay. Americans neither made that underclass nor have any real ability to help them. Also, please explain how Americans are responsible for Mexico's poverty. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 13, 2016 |
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 10:12 |
|
|
readingatwork posted:No. It's is NOT the fault of the working class that wealthy rear end in a top hat business owners exploited Mexico's underclass to undermine their pay. Americans neither made that underclass nor have any real ability to help them. Yeah we kind of did. The war on drugs is a huge part of why Mexico is so hosed up. Those cartels are a direct creation of our policies here, and furthermore are an extension of the same organized crime we have here related to drugs. It's all a big supply chain from Latin America to white suburbia. Like, working class white people didn't, though they probably voted for the people who did. Nixon those who came after him who pushed the war on drugs created that mess.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:10
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:The last quote for what an iPhone would cost built entirely with American materials by Americans making a living wage was in the $15,000 dollar range. poo poo is only affordable because it's made with slave labor, dude. That's just dumb though. Every component in the iPhone IS American (profit), the only reason chips are made overseas with their dozen or so people supervising is that foreign countries literally wave billions in cash to make fabs. Having to pay 50 workers 150k instead of 20k a year wouldn't significantly increase the cost. What is expensive is interest on the uumpteen billion dollars it would cost to build the fab yourself instead of having the government buy it for you. It's not like the machinery they make chips with comes out of china either - that's all from either here or other first world countries (Japan) You don't hand-build an iPhone, you have US designers send CAD drawings to board houses, that etch boards by first-world built machines, glue them together, and drill with (again, first world) robots. Then you take first-world designed chips and place them on the board with first-world built robots, and run that through an oven (made anywhere). LCDs are precision deposition done by machines, not a bunch of 5 cents a month asian slaves toiling over each one with a microscope and paintbrush. It's only the very final step of assembly that requires humans, and if it's poo poo to assemble that requires more hand-time that's on the designers. Only that last step "requires" low-cost workers. The big expenses are having to actually handle your waste products responsibly, having to pay for your own factory instead of being given it, and all of your suppliers being hit with the same costs. It's not about wages, it's about the parts of modern business that cost actual money. That's why jobs may come back in Trump's America - if he kills the EPA on day one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:11
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I like that your article begins with "factory collapses, kills 1,200, system corrupt and rife with low wages, unsafe conditions, and child labor." Totally not being exploited. I'm pretty sure people's Juche USA proposals are going to remove any leverage to improve those conditions. Or just send the workers back to the village where the mostly female workforce has a life of arranged marriage, rape, and backbreaking domestic servitude to look forward to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:11
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:No, I do not live in Madison. No one's acting like latinx coming here for jobs are big evil jerks. The big evil jerks are the companies who violate the law to hire them because they are relatively unprotected class and can easily be deported by the same lawbreakers if they start trying for better conditions. Oh the jerks are also neoliberal shithesds like you that supports said exploitative system as if it were an aid program.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:13
|
|
|
"Slave labor" is a slang term referring to jobs where working conditions are particularly exploitative. Literally everyone knows we're not talking about actual slavery. Please stop being willfully dense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:14
|
|
|
I will note that I corrected myself, I was off by a zero. It's closer to 2,000. I linked the article I was basing this on, people disagree on the number and it could be anywhere from 850 to 5,000. Gail Wynand posted:Kind of a climb down from "slave labor making pennies an hour," eh? I mean it's nominally better but I'm not jumping for joy at it. Condiv posted:No one's acting like latinx coming here for jobs are big evil jerks. The big evil jerks are the companies who violate the law to hire them because they are relatively unprotected class and can easily be deported by the same lawbreakers if they start trying for better conditions. Oh the jerks are also neoliberal shithesds like you that supports said exploitative system as if it were an aid program. And so if they didn't have to come here illegally, our labor laws would apply to them. Imagine that. I think it's cute that we've gone back to throwing neoliberal around like an insult devoid of meaning. I believe that's how "socialist" came to mean nothing to Americans too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:15
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:"Slave labor" is a slang term referring to jobs where working conditions are particularly exploitative. Literally everyone knows we're not talking about actual slavery. Please stop being willfully dense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:15
|
|
|
Gail Wynand posted:So referring to POC earning an honest living as "slaves" is okay with you? Yes Matt I think you just like sweatshop labor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:20
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:And so if they didn't have to come here illegally, our labor laws would apply to them. Imagine that. I think it's cute that we've gone back to throwing neoliberal around like an insult devoid of meaning. I believe that's how "socialist" came to mean nothing to Americans too. They don't have to come here legally or illegally.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:23
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:And so if they didn't have to come here illegally, our labor laws would apply to them. Imagine that. I think it's cute that we've gone back to throwing neoliberal around like an insult devoid of meaning. I believe that's how "socialist" came to mean nothing to Americans too. I'm using neoliberal correctly. Liberals don't pretend capitalism is an aid program. As for having open borders, I'd already said that's my perfect world. Problem is, I'm not in favor of letting the capitalist class exploit unprotected workers in the meantime unlike you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:24
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Yes Matt I think you just like sweatshop labor. On a technical question, what is the difference between sweat shop and slave labour? Wouldn't that be covered under something like (actual) Wage Slavery? SimonCat posted:They don't have to come here legally or illegally. They do if their country is a blasted hellscape. Why wouldn't they? If your country is in the pit of corruption the main thing you've done throughout history is either a) Die uselessly or b) flee to America. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Nov 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:24
|
|
|
Double post again!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
Did we scare off that rural PA pope's toes guy? I wanted to see him defend some of the stuff he said 
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
SimonCat posted:They don't have to come here legally or illegally. I'm confused as to why it's ok for us to tell them to languish in poverty forever but white working class people are entitled to us moving heaven and earth to get them back to work. If you were poor and you could go to another country for a better life - another country that explicitly sells itself as a better life for immigrants mind you - wouldn't you? Condiv posted:I'm using neoliberal correctly. Liberals don't pretend capitalism is an aid program. The fact that you in the same breath are talking about neoliberals and liberals as separate things is hysterical. Further still, I don't view capitalism as an aid program. I'd like to help them more than just "well I guess you can come here and take a lovely job." But that apparently makes me a horrible person who cares more about the foreign poor than poor people here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:26
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:They do if their country is a blasted hellscape. Why wouldn't they, what would your solution be. Is it a wall? Heavy duty fines and legal actions against companies that hire illegal immigrants. It's the companies that bear the blame and responsibility for exploiting illegals, not the immigrants themselves. If you make it untenable to hire undocumented workers, then the immigrants won't come because there will be no jobs for them to work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
fknlo posted:
In light of this isn't the logical solution to deport everyone?
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
"Actually, other countries being poor is your fault therefore x y z" doesn't seem like a winning argument. Sounds like just more blame attempts to guilt and this election seems to suggest people aren't receptive to that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
SimonCat posted:Heavy duty fines and legal actions against companies that hire illegal immigrants. It's the companies that bear the blame and responsibility for exploiting illegals, not the immigrants themselves. If you make it untenable to hire undocumented workers, then the immigrants won't come because there will be no jobs for them to work. Maybe, but why shouldn't people have just as much right to move to the USA and try and build a life for themselves. Not to say I am opposed to kicking companies in the face repeatedly, but I'd like it to go along with providing easier ways to gain citizenship.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
SimonCat posted:Heavy duty fines and legal actions against companies that hire illegal immigrants. It's the companies that bear the blame and responsibility for exploiting illegals, not the immigrants themselves. If you make it untenable to hire undocumented workers, then the immigrants won't come because there will be no jobs for them to work. This is a solution to them coming here. This isn't a solution to why they felt the needed to come in the first place. All you're doing is pushing the problem out of sight, out of mind. A problem we are responsible for in an ongoing manner, not a historical manner.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I question why white working class desperation is worth validating but Mexican working class desperation isn't. This is easy, let me describe to you governmental representatives and eligible voters? Representatives represent their constituents who are voters, they are not supposed to represent extra-nationals.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:"Actually, other countries being poor is your fault therefore x y z" doesn't seem like a winning argument. Sounds like just more blame attempts to guilt and this election seems to suggest people aren't receptive to that. It is, however, true. Same reason I don't think Britain and the rest of Europe should just have hosed off from Africa and the rest of the world without trying to make up for well everything. It's not a vote winner, and never will be, doesn't mean it stops being the truth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I think Bernie's decision to specifically push Keith Ellison, instead of any other progressive Congressmen, is very significant and we should be getting a message from that. I think even he realized that white dudes won't be able to campaign on populism without terrifying minorities. I'm really afraid that people are exaggerating its significance. Appointing a minority leader is a good start, but it's only a start, and it bothers me that no one's talking about next steps beyond that. If we stop there, well, the GOP already tried the whole "appoint a token minority to national committee chair to make up for lack of real minority outreach" thing. Symbolic moves are important, but let's not overvalue them and pretend they're an acceptable substitute for paying real attention to minority problems. skylined! posted:No one is able to tell me what the gently caress the 'establishment' is. It's a loving boogeyman word on par with some alex jones bullshit. That's because rule one of dogwhistles is that if someone can't hear the (((echoes))), they're not supposed to know about them. Kilroy posted:Every time you hear "bring back the factory jobs" just replace it with "bring back economic empowerment". Sure. That still doesn't answer the actually important question of "HOW?". There's an entire thread in D&D devoted to discussing "is it possible to economically revitalize blighted rural areas", it's been going for months, and so far no one's been able to make a realistic case for anything better than "it might be possible to save a few long-term, and slap short-term fixes on some of them". If you've got the magic fix that restores economic prosperity to a massive number of small, remote communities of uneducated workers that have absolutely nothing to offer businesses besides cheap land, feel free to come share it, either here or there. Because I am absolutely goddamn sick of people saying "well we need to address their problems" without offering up any solutions of their own and then smugly mocking anyone who says that's easier said than done. And no, before you say it, government make-work programs and infrastructure investment aren't the solution. They're fine when you need to fill an economic gap during a recession, like in 1932 or in 2009, but they're not a long-term fix. They just fill in the economic holes for a few years while other economic programs work to fix the fundamental issues causing those holes. FAUXTON posted:That's why it's important to have a full-court press on the platform message. Obama built a coalition of voters through bringing hope to resentful blue collared people and a message of idealism to people looking to alleviate social ills. It absolutely helped that he was young and charismatic and incredibly good at giving great speeches, but his platform and messaging did the heavy lifting. It also helped that the economy went into complete meltdown literally two or three months before the 2008 election, and that the auto industry was particularly hard-hit by the recession. I'm not saying that Obama wasn't a good campaigner or that he didn't earn his win, but any time anyone talks about how he won over blue-collar workers in places like Ohio and Michigan, the context of the 2008 recession absolutely can't be ignored. This is also why it doesn't really matter whether Trump delivers on his promises. What matters is what happens to the economy. If it collapses again, Trump gets booted at the first opportunity. If it continues pretty much like it has been, he'll be a two term president with low approval ratings and the Dems will win a few seats in Congress over the course of his administration. If the economy improves, hope you're ready for President Donald Junior to win in a landslide in 2024!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I will note that I corrected myself, I was off by a zero. It's closer to 2,000. I linked the article I was basing this on, people disagree on the number and it could be anywhere from 850 to 5,000. I just disagree that there's any real labor cost to modern electronics. There's some poo poo you get for free when you have zero-cost labor, like being able to rush into a design without proper testing and have an army of workers to make hand-done changes at the last second. I guess "being able to jump to market with a half-assed product" is a benefit? Not one you see promoted by the free-trade types. If the US scrapped waste disposal laws (Or took ownership of waste issues so the company didn't have to) and completely subsidized building of fabs and assembly lines, I doubt the costs of labor would amount to jack and poo poo. Certainly less than the cost of sitting with your thumb up your rear end for a month and a half waiting for the containers of your brand new product to drift across the pacific.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:31
|
|
|
Harik posted:I just disagree that there's any real labor cost to modern electronics. There's some poo poo you get for free when you have zero-cost labor, like being able to rush into a design without proper testing and have an army of workers to make hand-done changes at the last second. I guess "being able to jump to market with a half-assed product" is a benefit? Not one you see promoted by the free-trade types. They may well amount to jack and poo poo, the companies are still going to want to cut them. There is also the on going problem of people not purchasing stuff as much because the overall buying power of people has reduced.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Maybe, but why shouldn't people have just as much right to move to the USA and try and build a life for themselves. Free immigration is never going to be popular in a less-than-stellar economic environment. Hell more people are going south than north at the US-Mex border at the moment. It also doesn't make as much sense in a NAFTA environment. Also with "the jobs not coming back" additional low skilled labor is not an asset. Your contention neither needs to be correct or incorrect, but currently if you try to pass a, "let Mexicans come to the US at will to try to eek out a better existence" law the voters are going to tell you to gently caress off.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:Cheaper electronic garbage is not a good reason to gently caress over the entire American working class, why is this so hard for people to grasp? Also if the costs go up for Wall-mart maybe that will give more American small businesses the ability to compete again. Heck, maybe we'll get REALLY lucky and kill Wall-mart entirely. you completely avoided answering my question. how are you going to force goods to be made in the usa again in the first place? what policy can trump implement to make this happen? the impossibility of your argument is the part you don't grasp also lol at "maybe if we raise the price of goods for everyone, diminished purchasing power won't harm domestic goods production" crack an economics book sometime before you start spouting off economic arguments boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
In an interview with Leslie Stahl airing tonight, Trump clarified his Immigration plans. - Goal is 2 to 3 million people gone in the first year. - Going to focus on criminals first. No deportation force initially. - Focus on criminals includes the following elements: - Checking immigration status for everyone arrested or held in detention. - "Sanctuary Cities" will be abolished by making any Sanctuary City ineligible to receive federal policing, DOJ, ICE, or DHS grants. - Mandatory jail sentences for anyone caught twice or who has a felony. - Anyone who overstays a visa will automatically have it revoked permanently. - Any country that has more than 5% of its Student Visa or Tourist Visa program overstay their visa will have their visa programs suspended pending review. Parts of the wall will be a fence and parts will be an actual wall. It will cover the entire border. The U.S. might initially pay for the wall. But there will be temporary tariffs and a freeze on Mexican remittance payments and diplomatic visas until Mexico pays for it in full. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Another point we have to acknowledge is that even in the fantasy "jobs come back" scenario a lot of these people are just not fit for the labor force any longer. Joe Sixpack is now a heroin addict and you think he's going to consistently show up for a 7am shift ready to work?
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:36
|
|
|
SimonCat posted:Heavy duty fines and legal actions against companies that hire illegal immigrants. It's the companies that bear the blame and responsibility for exploiting illegals, not the immigrants themselves. If you make it untenable to hire undocumented workers, then the immigrants won't come because there will be no jobs for them to work. This exactly, but I'd also add that we need to give businesses better tools to weed out people working illegaly as well. Right now it's kind of hard to police. Josef bugman posted:Maybe, but why shouldn't people have just as much right to move to the USA and try and build a life for themselves. Not to say I am opposed to kicking companies in the face repeatedly, but I'd like it to go along with providing easier ways to gain citizenship. Because there are way to many people who want to come to the US to reasonably accommodate. I'm totally on board with streamlining the immigration process though. That poo poo is awful.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:
Get rid of excess labor. That will increase empowerment. All we gotta do is re-enact the Black Death and the big creditors will come to the table pretty fast. There are no long term economic fixes to anything.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Torpor posted:Free immigration is never going to be popular in a less-than-stellar economic environment. Hell more people are going south than north at the US-Mex border at the moment. It's never going to be popular at any time because people fear "the other" like everything else. Even if they pay more in taxes and more in various ways it still won't seem "good enough". Well in case you haven't noticed, labour is no longer an asset for most sections of current jobs either. Ever since the spinning jenny this kind of poo poo has been on the increase, it's just gotten faster and faster. Probably, but at this point I think all we can say is that our best ideas are just farts in a hurricane.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Not sure how many more "soul searching" hot takes I can handle
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
Anyone want to take bets on how long it will take for Trump to abolish ESTA? I hear there are a lot of mooselimbs in Europe these days who may not be getting the EXTREME VETTING they deserve.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:you completely avoided answering my question. how are you going to force goods to be made in the usa again in the first place? what policy can trump implement to make this happen? the impossibility of your argument is the part you don't grasp You pass a law saying that if you want to sell a product in the US you have to manufacture it here as well. Done.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Here's the thing though. Long haul trucking and shipping is one of the largest employment sectors in the United States with 1.8 million long haul truck drivers alone. Then you have all the other logistics people, etc. etc. Drivers are also 955 male and 60% white. People losing their jobs over a switch to toll roads would spark intense backlash.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:Because there are way to many people who want to come to the US to reasonably accommodate. Maybe in its current state. But the fact is that if you want life to come back to those little farming and mining communities the old fashioned way of doing it was infrastructure works and mass immigration. I think the latter helps the former.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
Oh by the way this idea that the entire third world wants to move to America is just absurd. Most people even in the Third World do not want to uproot themselves from their communities to move to a place where they don't speak the language and know no one. Those who do are probably the people we want, honestly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 10:12 |
|
|
Madre de dios.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 18:41
|
|