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communists and socialists were among the only groups willing to organize unions across racial lines in the first part of the 20th century, then liberals purged them all after world war 2, makes u think
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Nov 14, 2016 15:37
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mcmagic posted:No. Those voters just hated Hillary Clinton. Helped that Trump was promising their jobs back really loudly. Also lightning knight Unions leave the Dems in 80 because Carter to them stabbbed them in the back with his economics policy. Swan Oat posted:communists and socialists were among the only groups willing to organize unions across racial lines in the first part of the 20th century, then liberals purged them all after world war 2, makes u think
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Nov 14, 2016 15:37
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Condiv posted:unions did die because we abandoned them. you're literally wrong on this. No, I'm not. Unions died because conservative politicians who implemented anti-union measures and undermined the working class. Those politicians weren't effectively opposed because they utilized dogwhistle racism and the Southern Strategy to undermine the left and the Democratic Party attempted, and failed, to compensate by moving right. Learn your history. Mahoning posted:Literally nobody made this argument. (Since you did happen to mention strawmen) I said "why should they have to keep waiting?" You responded with: quote:Because apparently the alternative is President Trump. Not to mention a Republican Congress that will only give you racial progress when you pry it from their cold dead hands. That sounds like you think social justice is a reason we lost the election to me. edit: quote:Also lightning knight Unions leave the Dems in 80 because Carter to them stabbbed them in the back with his economics policy. The Southern Strategy was well underway before that and Nixon had already begun the process Reagan perfected. Carter was an incompetent but he wasn't the originator of the problem.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:39
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Are a bunch of thick headed jerks still piling on lightning knight? Yeah? I'll come back later.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:40
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I still can't believe that Trump got over 45% of the union vote in Wisconsin, PA and MI. That is a loving travesty.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:41
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Lightning Knight posted:No, I'm not. Unions died because conservative politicians who implemented anti-union measures and undermined the working class. Those politicians weren't effectively opposed because they utilized dogwhistle racism and the Southern Strategy to undermine the left and the Democratic Party attempted, and failed, to compensate by moving right. yeah i know the southern strategy. i also know it didn't deal a finishing blow to unions. dems abandoning them is right now.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:42
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:Are a bunch of thick headed jerks still piling on lightning knight? Hey Lightning knight is as usual advocating burning bridges so I assume that the democrats will be vindicated by history or some such idiocy. You know rather then preventing America destroying itself. mcmagic posted:I still can't believe that Trump got over 45% of the union vote in Wisconsin, PA and MI. That is a loving travesty.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:43
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Condiv posted:yeah i know the southern strategy. i also know it didn't deal a finishing blow to unions. dems abandoning them is right now. The Democratic Party abandoned unions and I literally have not contested this. What I am arguing, and that you seem to be so offended by, is that they didn't only abandon unions because of neoliberalism. I've also consistently argued, in this very thread, for a push for unionization in every sector of the economy. So what are you mad about? quote:Hey Lightning knight is as usual advocating burning bridges I'm not convinced you're not literally illiterate.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:43
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Crowsbeak posted:Helped that Trump was promising their jobs back really loudly. What? Are you suggesting that for most people, having a job and a future might be more important to them then social reform? What are you, some kind of mega racist?
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Nov 14, 2016 15:46
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My Linux Rig posted:What? Are you suggesting that for most people, having a job and a future might be more important to them then social reform? What are you, some kind of mega racist? I like that in this narrative the notion that black poor people might also want a job and a future is irrelevant.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:47
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean his wider argument is stupid. I didn't realize that "white people will fight for white supremacy in spite of their own economic interests" was a controversial statement in light of history tho. There are definitely people in the world who, convinced that a given platform will benefit them economically, will nonetheless reject it because it would also benefit PoC. I strongly suspect they aren't a majority among the Republican base. They certainly aren't among the Democratic one. White voters, as the racial hegemon in the US, are largely apathetic to racial issues, not hostile to them. This is not, for as much as the GOP would like it to be, the 50s.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Thats because all unions are racists. Thats because so many who voted Obama switched their votes, because they hated blacks.Despite voting for Obama. Also, Catholicism isn't threaded through with misogyny, because Mary.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:48
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Business Gorillas posted:Economic justice and social justice are linked, actually, unless you're some spineless upper middle class white person who counts their social progress in the number of PoC or LGBT people you can have sex with in the new Mass Effect game henry_louis_gates_being_arrested_on_his_own_porch_for_being_black.jpg
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Nov 14, 2016 15:49
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My Linux Rig posted:What? Are you suggesting that for most people, having a job and a future might be more important to them then social reform?
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Nov 14, 2016 15:49
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean his wider argument is stupid. I didn't realize that "white people will fight for white supremacy in spite of their own economic interests" was a controversial statement in light of history tho. I think that most of those voters just didn't view white supremacy as a deal breaker or know enough to recognize it.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:50
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Lightning Knight posted:That sounds like you think social justice is a reason we lost the election to me. No, I think a lack of focus on the economy is what lost the election. I mean literally the message from the Hillary campaign was that the economy is great. She was certainly at a disadvantage because she was running as Obama 2.0 so she couldn't exactly run on the same doom and gloom as Trump did. And guess what? She got destroyed among people that thought the economy was in bad shape. And it was enough in 3 states for her to lose the election.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:51
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mcmagic posted:I still can't believe that Trump got over 45% of the union vote in Wisconsin, PA and MI. That is a loving travesty. Guess where huge patterns of voter suppression are. I live in MI and was told by a group of other black women to be careful while entering my polling station because Trump supporters had been harassing people. This + Voter iD laws make it no surprise that turnout was low. In fact iirc, all over election day people had been posting articles about voter suppression. Did y'all forget that was happening or what?
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Nov 14, 2016 15:51
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And, for what it's worth, I suspect the election of Trump and the shitheels coming out of the woodwork even now is going to illuminate to a lot of whites that racial hatred is still a thing in pockets of America, and they are going to outnumber by quite a lot the assholes who are emboldened by Trump's election. I hope I'm not being overly optimistic here but we'll see. A lot of white people thought we lived in a post-racial America - we'll see how the next few years shape their opinions on that but what will not happen is they'll suddenly go "oh, I guess we don't live in a post-racial culture after all, welp time to put people in camps I guess 
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Nov 14, 2016 15:51
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Kilroy posted:Again, white people aren't going to "fight for" white supremacy they're just not going to mobilize as much as you'd like them to, to fight against it. Largely, they just won't believe you that white supremacy is a thing at all. This is the origin behind "SHOULD OF COMPLIED" idiocy and I hate it as much as the next person, but you seem to be imagining some kind of scenario where traditionally Democratic-voting whites suddenly decide to lock arm-in-arm with their Republican-voting brothers to put the boot to the neck of anyone who doesn't pass the paper bag test. That is utter loving nonsense. Not all white people will, no. But the KKK is using economic hardship to radicalize the white working class as we speak. Anti-immigrant rhetoric is steeped in racism just as much as it is about FYGMism. I don't think white people will magically all start voting Republican for racism. I think white progressives need to stop excising racism from history and pretend like all the woes in America are due to neoliberalism, however. And I think we need to acknowledge that racial minorities and women won't have their lives magically made perfect because they aren't poor anymore. Apparently this makes me literally Hillary Clinton. FactsAreUseless posted:And to secure a future for their children?  mcmagic posted:I think that most of those voters just didn't view white supremacy as a deal breaker or know enough to recognize it. This level of societal-wide sociopathy should scare the poo poo out of us, not be dismissed as understandable and fine.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:52
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Kilroy posted:And, for what it's worth, I suspect the election of Trump and the shitheels coming out of the woodwork even now is going to illuminate to a lot of whites that racial hatred is still a thing in pockets of America, and they are going to outnumber by quite a lot the assholes who are emboldened by Trump's election. I hope I'm not being overly optimistic here but we'll see. A lot of white people thought we lived in a post-racial America - we'll see how the next few years shape their opinions on that but what will not happen is they'll suddenly go "oh, I guess we don't live in a post-racial culture after all, welp time to put people in camps I guess :shrugs: These shitheels always vote and they always vote republican. Our side of the ledger LOST the election.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:52
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Kilroy posted:
Yeah this can be worked on, but you have to bring them to this with something that they can beleive benefits them directly. IE Economics.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:52
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If you are aware of the consequences of your actions, apathy IS hostility.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:52
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Koalas March posted:Guess where huge patterns of voter suppression are.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:55
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Mahoning posted:No, I think a lack of focus on the economy is what lost the election. I mean literally the message from the Hillary campaign was that the economy is great. She was certainly at a disadvantage because she was running as Obama 2.0 so she couldn't exactly run on the same doom and gloom as Trump did. And guess what? She got destroyed among people that thought the economy was in bad shape. And it was enough in 3 states for her to lose the election. That's fine. This is a fine argument. We should be making speeches to working class people in the Rust Belt that we're going to make their lives better. That doesn't preclude us from making speeches to black people in the cities that we're going to protect them from the police, and enacting both of those policies in office. If you agree with me then we don't have substantial disagreement.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:56
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Kilroy posted:White voters, as the racial hegemon in the US, are largely apathetic to racial issues, not hostile to them. This is not, for as much as the GOP would like it to be, the 50s. White people are very loving hostile to the idea of dismantling white supremacy. Have you seen the southern strategy? The people angry their tax dollars could benefit anyone else? The ones who oppose affirmative action? The people posting on a forum where black posters are designated to thread ghettos? The people posting itt saying "what's the big deal about white supremacy? Why is that bad?" Trump supporters? Oh and yeah SPLC reporting a huge spike in hate crimes? Koalas March fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 15:56
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Lightning Knight posted:The Democratic Party abandoned unions and I literally have not contested this. What I am arguing, and that you seem to be so offended by, is that they didn't only abandon unions because of neoliberalism. nothing in your post where you say i'm wrong about hillary's economic platform causing her to lose says anything about neoliberalism. why are you so bent on admitting that hillary should have had an economic platform if she wanted to win this election. it's not like she lost the states she lost by wide margins quote:I've also consistently argued, in this very thread, for a push for unionization in every sector of the economy. So what are you mad about? i'm not mad. i just don't know why you insist that "white people will fight for white supremacy in spite of their own economic interests" is fact
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Nov 14, 2016 15:56
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FactsAreUseless posted:I think a lot of people did forget it. Or have ignored it since it doesn't agree with the narrative that they want to form.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:56
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fosborb posted:If you are aware of the consequences of your actions, apathy IS hostility. If you literally don't know a minority, then the consequences are some fiction on TV, not the reality of your every day life. Like were you aware of the fact that if Hillary was elected, thousands people in 3rd world countries were likely to be killed by her foreign policy? Were you apathetic to that because it really doesn't affect your every day life?
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Nov 14, 2016 15:57
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I'd just like to know what can be done so that the Democratic party stops getting curbstomped during elections. I already know we need more votes, but how do we get them?
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Nov 14, 2016 15:57
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It's strange that the voter suppression effect hasn't been getting a lot of press.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:57
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Condiv posted:nothing in your post where you say i'm wrong about hillary's economic platform causing her to lose says anything about neoliberalism. why are you so bent on admitting that hillary should have had an economic platform if she wanted to win this election. it's not like she lost the states she lost by wide margins Hillary had an economic platform, that was in fact fairly ok. She didn't run on it almost at all very effectively, she didn't control her narrative, and she probably wouldn't have enacted most of her platform. That last part is important and I've never disagreed that it wasn't. Because historically, it is fact. Edit: Also as has been said, voter suppression is a way bigger deal than we seem to be acknowledging. Several times as many minority voters were prevented from voting in the states we ought to have won than would've been needed to win.
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Nov 14, 2016 15:59
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Condiv posted:yeah i know the southern strategy. i also know it didn't deal a finishing blow to unions. dems abandoning them is right now. You are concentrating on why all the fish are behaving strangely and Lightning Knight is trying to explain to you that its because the water the fish live in became toxic. IMO a major factor in why rural/poor white people went for Trump is because that group of people has been targeted by the most complex propaganda machine ever created for a period nearing half a century now. ANY population group subjected that that kind of sustained assault on their psyche will eventually lash out in the way we are seeing Trump supporters do now. Not to diminish the importance of race and class in this discussion, but in my view 65% of the source of the problems is the propaganda machine itself and so long as the propaganda machine exists no meaningful solution to our present quandary is possible. What I am saying is that the propaganda machine itself will need to be addressed first before any issues of race or income inequality can be addressed. I am also arguing that in the absence of the propaganda machine our country would be able to have a real discussion and move forwards in the way that things did in the past. To me the single most pressing issue in our society is not the (very real complaints) of white people, but rather it is the lies that have been screamed into those white heads for three generations that are the real source of our present collective misery. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 15:59
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I'm sure voter suppression had a significant effect, but how much of our over six million voter deficit does it account for?
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Nov 14, 2016 16:00
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thechosenone posted:I'd just like to know what can be done so that the Democratic party stops getting curbstomped during elections. I already know we need more votes, but how do we get them?
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Nov 14, 2016 16:00
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Hollismason posted:It's strange that the voter suppression effect hasn't been getting a lot of press. It really isn't, unfortunately. It's something that conflicts with The Narrative. We may see some academic articles in a couple of years about it that might get some brief mention in the news or (more likely) get passed around in various social circles online.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:00
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thechosenone posted:I'm sure voter suppression had a significant effect, but how much of our over six million voter deficit does it account for? At least 300,000 in Milwaukee alone. Almost certainly enough to swing the election between WI, MI, and NC.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:01
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What the hell audience is this for? The "moderate republicans" who voted for Trump anyway??? http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-senate-democrats-231256
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Nov 14, 2016 16:01
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Hollismason posted:It's strange that the voter suppression effect hasn't been getting a lot of press. It's complicated and there is a simpler narrative (Hillary bad). Same reason that Gannon's white supremacist past is getting covered bit not his past with Goldman Sachs.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:02
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mcmagic posted:I still can't believe that Trump got over 45% of the union vote in Wisconsin, PA and MI. That is a loving travesty. They're in a union; they already organized on the basis of labor. Yikes
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Nov 14, 2016 16:02
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Maybe jobs are more important than minority issues? At least the people in the rust belt thought so. We need a GMI and free college education. That will at least take some of the job equation out. Provide enough money to live while going to college and picking up a job that both pays better and isn't vulnerable to automation.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:02
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