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Lightning Knight posted:You aren't the white working class. You're one rear end in a top hat on Something Awful. Try again. Dems missing the point again 
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Nov 14, 2016 16:49
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Unzip and Attack posted:If you think all black Americans are about to be murdered by the US government then you should probably step away from the computer for awhile. Seriously, take a break and get your mind off of this poo poo. The next four years are going to suck but if you really think genocide is about to happen, why haven't you left for Canada? Won't matter, this movement won't be confined to a single county and once the bombs start dropping it won't matter where you are.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:51
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Mahoning posted:"I don't care about minorities if voting for their candidate isn't going to make my life better." isn't quite the same as "kill all the dark people" despite the overall effect from minorities' perspectives being the same. What I mean is, these people will be easily convinced if they feel the person with a D next to their name actually understands them. Are they racist? Sure, in a way that is different from the gung ho racists who will never vote D unless we hop in the DeLorean and travel back 60 years or more. To you it may be a minor distinction.. It is a absolutely NOT minor distinction because it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you are denying my rights and humanity, then you are denying my rights and humanity. You are my oppressor. If you are cool with putting civil rights and equality on the metaphorical backburner in order to win over racists, (no matter what 'level' of racist they are) you are contributing to further my oppression. If you say "I don't care about minorities if voting for their candidate isn't going to make my life better." you are contributing to further my oppression.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:51
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I don't know if it makes any sense, but I honestly feel like there is always something you can have people do. having people come into ones country seems like an opportunity to poach for more potential big minds, which seems like a definitely valuable resource in a world where knowledge is power.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:52
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Kilroy posted:A lot of white people thought we lived in a post-racial America - we'll see how the next few years shape their opinions on that but what will not happen is they'll suddenly go "oh, I guess we don't live in a post-racial culture after all, welp time to put people in camps I guess I think the reaction will largely be: "Oh, that's terrible", and then they will carry on with their day. The biggest problem we are going to face is that the people in LA/SF/NYC/DC etc. will simply "disconnect" from the rest of the country. Reading about a black church that burned down in South Carolina will be like reading about a suicide bomb that killed 50 people in a market in Baghdad. All of this anger in the coastal cities is going to quickly turn into apathy as people realize that there is nothing they can do.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:52
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farraday posted:We'll know exact numbers when the finals come in but current estimate is about 27k. I mean in the technical sense absent voter suppression she would've won Wisconsin. That doesn't change the myriad other problems, just adds to them. Torpor posted:With Automation and AI taking up jobs, having a large, recently arrived low-skilled population is a ticking time bomb. Insofar as immigration represents a risk greater than zero, it doesn't seem like a risk worth taking in the current economic and technological environment. Immigrants being exploited as a source of poor undocumented labor is a problem that we can correct for through immigration reform and stronger labor laws. Immigration has been mostly negative coming from Mexico since the recession anyways. We could improve the situation greatly in Mexico via ending the war on drugs, and immigrants wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if they were protected by the same rules as everyone else re: wages and working conditions. Immigrants spend money and pay taxes too.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:52
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Mahoning posted:Dean and Ellison aren't equally good. Howard Dean's time is over....Ellison is the clear choice. I hope he seeks Dean's advice on what did and didn't work with regards to the 50-state strategy, but I don't want more establishment types in leadership positions in the DNC.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:53
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Mahoning posted:Dean and Ellison aren't equally good. Howard Dean's time is over....Ellison is the clear choice. I hope he seeks Dean's advice on what did and didn't work with regards to the 50-state strategy, but I don't want more establishment types in leadership positions in the DNC. Yep, Howard Dean is 67 now and Keith Ellison is 53. If Keith Ellison ends up being a good leader, we could get a solid block of continuity from him. And I wish a few posters in this thread would stop calling all rural people racist. Yes, they tend to have less exposure to minorities and are susceptible to racist rhetoric. But that doesn't mean they can't be reached. Rural voters don't have good schools, they don't have job prospects, and there's a heroine epidemic ravaging them. Every black voter isn't perfect when it comes to every issue. Every Latino voter isn't perfect when it comes to every issue. But we don't ignore them, we always work to raise them up because it is the right thing to do. Helping rural people is also the right thing to do, and helping people even if they hate you is the right thing to do. If we concede to the right wing media bubble at the start, we'll never win the fight.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:54
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Koalas March posted:It is a absolutely NOT minor distinction because it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you are denying my rights and humanity, then you are denying my rights and humanity. You are my oppressor. lol I got a poster or two during the primaries mad at me for characterizing the situation as "the boot is already on my throat" like my experience of violence at the hands of bigots doesn't exist lots of people don't care about our oppression, at all, MLK was 100% correct about tepid white liberals, and almost everything else
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Nov 14, 2016 16:55
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Koalas March posted:It is a absolutely NOT minor distinction because it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you are denying my rights and humanity, then you are denying my rights and humanity. You are my oppressor.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:57
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Koalas March posted:It is a absolutely NOT minor distinction because it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you are denying my rights and humanity, then you are denying my rights and humanity. You are my oppressor. Devil's advocate here, but by focusing on your own problems and not caring about, say, the thousands of innocent people who have been murdered overseas through the foreign policy of one Barack Obama, aren't you doing the exact same thing?
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Nov 14, 2016 16:57
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Unzip and Attack posted:If you think all black Americans are about to be murdered by the US government then you should probably step away from the computer for awhile. Seriously, take a break and get your mind off of this poo poo. The next four years are going to suck but if you really think genocide is about to happen, why haven't you left for Canada? Black Americans are already being murdered regularly by the police, this will only get worse. SPLC has reported a spike in hate crimes. Some are saying it's worse than post 9/11. PoC, Muslims and LGBT people have been threatened, beatened and killed. Kids at schools have been chanting "Build a wall" in the city I work. Property has been vandalized with racist messages. Teenagers are handing out phony deportation letters to their peers. A noose was thrown around the neck of a black football player. Do not minimize the very real fear that minorities have for their safety. It was difficult enough living in this country before, it's going to get worse. It already has.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:57
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Koalas March posted:It is a absolutely NOT minor distinction because it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you are denying my rights and humanity, then you are denying my rights and humanity. You are my oppressor. So then we are agreed that it is best if we can get these people to start voting for the party which wishes to relieve you of this oppression? This is not a zero sum game, we don't have to hurt white people to help minorities, and we don't have to hurt minorities to help white people.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:57
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"i wish people getting their churches burned down and punched in the head because of a human rights campaign = sticker on their bag would shut up so we can earn the votes of arsonists and nazis" ummmmmmmmmmmmm yea weird that people say your party doesn't stand for poo poo, truly inconceivable that you could fail
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Nov 14, 2016 16:58
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Elotana posted:Nobody's thrilled by it but it's got to be done. It's not like the Democrats have to revert to Woodrow Wilson to get these voters back, they voted for Obama. They just need to offer them meat and potatoes policies so they don't reach for the delicious sugar rush of "it's the Mexicans!" People who voted for Obama and then Trump didn't vote on policy, so you can't win them back on policy.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:59
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean in the technical sense absent voter suppression she would've won Wisconsin. That doesn't change the myriad other problems, just adds to them. It's very hard to tell because even assuming voter suppression provided you just enough D votes to flip the state it's a coin flip on how it actually turns out. There is no acceptable ceteris paribus assumption you can make. So I feel the far more important thing to look at is the large scale change which is the heavy shift in white voters in rural to midsized towns since that not only flipped Wisconsin but hard a very measurable effect on outcomes under a variety of voting conditions.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:59
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We don't have to have racist policies to garner the votes of those who didn't vote in this election. It is unlikely we would need them or any other regressive policies for us to even poach votes from Republicans.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:59
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HorseRenoir posted:Whoops, misread a quote. But the general idea still stands: Voter ID laws are all going to be at the state level correct and it's clear courts aren't too gung ho for striking them down. I get that everyone is all doom and gloom now but people need to get their poo poo together and figure out what they're going to do to organize and start taking back these states to repeal these laws. No, we aren't going to repeal the electoral college. No there will be no appealing to electors to cast their votes for Clinton in December. No, Trump isn't going to round people up and put them in camps. Marching in McConnells office won't do anything. Passing around every single post Shaun King makes on Facebook will not win local elections. Screaming about how Trump will put people in camps does not win the presidency in 4 years.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:00
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TyrantWD posted:People who voted for Obama and then Trump didn't vote on policy, so you can't win them back on policy. Can you show me proof of this (without a nationwide exit poll that has no bearing on an election that isn't popular vote)?
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Nov 14, 2016 17:01
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:Do you have a good family / friend network to talk to? You sound like you might need to talk to someone (that isn't in a dead online forum). The thread could probably find numbers for you to call if need be. I don't want to worry anyone else. I'll just go through the motions until it's time to die. 
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Nov 14, 2016 17:02
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Koalas March posted:It is a absolutely NOT minor distinction because it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you are denying my rights and humanity, then you are denying my rights and humanity. You are my oppressor. So how do you feel about approaches to expanding social safety nets. Let's assume a candidate is running and we know he can only get one big change through and that big change that we are virtually certain of is a single payer health care system paid for through a reduction in military spending, negotiating pharmaceutical costs directly with manufacturers, and a return of the step tax. Assuming you agree that single payer is beneficial, is this a candidate you could vote for? It will disproportionately help black people who represent 15% of the uninsured population but less than 13% of the total population. But it doesn't directly appeal to race. I feel like these are the sorts of policies that people who are accused of putting race on the "backburner" support.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:02
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farraday posted:It's very hard to tell because even assuming voter suppression provided you just enough D votes to flip the state it's a coin flip on how it actually turns out. There is no acceptable ceteris paribus assumption you can make. So I feel the far more important thing to look at is the large scale change which is the heavy shift in white voters in rural to midsized towns since that not only flipped Wisconsin but hard a very measurable effect on outcomes under a variety of voting conditions. I dunno. I don't think that "Hillary would've won if not for voter suppression" is the correct lesson. The correct lesson, besides the stuff about white voters, is that the Republicans will keep on chipping away at the right of minorities to even vote for us. That's a very alarming long-term problem.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:03
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TyrantWD posted:People who voted for Obama and then Trump didn't vote on policy, so you can't win them back on policy. They did vote on policy, though. Or, more technically, the promise of policy. Clinton's policies were - in actuality - almost certainly better for those voters than Trump's, but she did a godawul job of explaining to rural and minority voters what the policy differences were. She's awful at messaging, and her inability to explain to many Americans why she's better was a major contributing factor in her loss in the Electoral vote. Niton fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 17:03
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Glazier posted:I don't want to worry anyone else. I'll just go through the motions until it's time to die. Yo dude you need help. I don't really know what to say to make it better in this moment, but you need to talk to someone in real life because you're depression spiraling and I have definitely been there before and it isn't going to get better if you just sit here letting it fester. I'm not telling you it isn't bad. But you need help.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:05
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Okay USPOL I think I'm just going to sit out the oncoming pages and pages of poo poo posts again about how any attention paid to economic issues is equivalent to advocating for genocide. See you in a day or two 
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Nov 14, 2016 17:05
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Mahoning posted:Can you show me proof of this (without a nationwide exit poll that has no bearing on an election that isn't popular vote)? Obama and Trump are polar opposites when it comes to policy. Trump ran on undoing the Obama presidency so if you voted for both, chances are you were a rube who got caught up in celebrity and personality rather than did a 180 in your beliefs.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:07
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TyrantWD posted:People who voted for Obama and then Trump didn't vote on policy, so you can't win them back on policy. Some of them voted for Trump because the candidate had an R by his name. Some voted for Trump because of the whistling in their ears. Some voted for Trump because he spoke to them about jobs. One of these groups can be won back but not if your message is "Hey, that Trump is super terrible, right? Say, have you kids seen Hamilton?"
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Nov 14, 2016 17:07
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Lightning Knight posted:I dunno. I don't think that "Hillary would've won if not for voter suppression" is the correct lesson. The correct lesson, besides the stuff about white voters, is that the Republicans will keep on chipping away at the right of minorities to even vote for us. That's a very alarming long-term problem. It makes me think that, over time, voter ID laws will eventually start to act like a gerrymandering which has not been refurbished in a long time: it will start to hurt even the GOP as minorities and poor whites get the shaft due to it. Also, this is pretty much just me being sour grapes, but I wonder if They had just told people about what they planned to do, while trump just kvetched, if it would have warped the narrative. I mean, do people actually like negative campaigning? Positive campaigning seems like it could take advantage of how people remember positive memories and try to forget bad ones. Bad things said about you just slide off after a while, while good things might stick with people. Think of all the African Americans which vote for the Democrats because of what they have done to defend them from republicans, vs how 40 percent of white people gladly defect from the GOP despite all their efforts. thechosenone fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 17:08
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Glazier posted:I'm serious, I have no faith that LGBT people won't end up stripped of rights and targeted for extrajudicial killings. I plan on getting a CCW so I can hopefully take some of them out with me but I'm not making plans out longer than four years. Did you vote Hillary? You know, the candidate bank rolled by countries that execute gay people for being gay?
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Nov 14, 2016 17:11
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thechosenone posted:considering that democrats are not going to make any progress without INCREASING their number of voters, I don't think we are in any danger of forsaking minority voters. We can't out bigot the republicans, so we have nothing to lose from trying to help MORE people, which doesn't in any way require us to abandon those we already wish to help. We could go the Clinton route just tell minority's we're all they got and then execute a man with the is of a five year old who is a big black guy. Yeah I'm kidding. Just remarking on how third way would Handel this.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:11
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Crowsbeak posted:We could go the Clinton route just tell minority's we're all they got and then execute a man with the is of a five year old who is a big black guy. Yeah I'm kidding. Just remarking on how third way would Handel this. I'm not sure we even have to stop trying to advance the lot of minorities in life to get more votes. I am also starting to wonder if maybe positivity is something we need to include in how we work. Negative approaches just make people slacken and surrender, but if they see a light at the end of the tunnel, it can help one to keep trudging on.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:14
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Niton posted:They did vote on policy, though. Or, more technically, the promise of policy. Clinton's policies were - in actuality - almost certainly better for those voters than Trump's, but she did a godawul job of explaining to rural and minority voters what the policy differences were. She's awful at messaging, and her inability to explain to many Americans why she's better was a major contributing factor in her loss in the Electoral vote. Jeez, all they had to do was go read all of the policy papers on her website, how hard is that?
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Nov 14, 2016 17:14
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From reading USPOL over past few days, it's incredibly apparent that lots of people within the social/economic factions of the democratic coalition do not trust one another one bit. It is blindingly obvious that the only way forward is to put up leadership that is able to gain trust simultaneously from both sides.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:15
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Of millennial population, West Virginia was one of the few states that still went Trump, the cause of course, was legalizing the selling of raw milk. Now I know that in the cities raw milk can be seen as taboo, cows don't have much room to graze, but in rural communities it's obviously important and needs to be one of the focuses of the democratic party.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:15
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On Terra Firma posted:Voter ID laws are all going to be at the state level correct and it's clear courts aren't too gung ho for striking them down. I get that everyone is all doom and gloom now but people need to get their poo poo together and figure out what they're going to do to organize and start taking back these states to repeal these laws. No, we aren't going to repeal the electoral college. No there will be no appealing to electors to cast their votes for Clinton in December. No, Trump isn't going to round people up and put them in camps. Marching in McConnells office won't do anything. Passing around every single post Shaun King makes on Facebook will not win local elections. Screaming about how Trump will put people in camps does not win the presidency in 4 years. Well we can make getting rid of the Ec a goal. @uv Keith not Correy.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:17
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TyrantWD posted:Obama and Trump are polar opposites when it comes to policy. Trump ran on undoing the Obama presidency so if you voted for both, chances are you were a rube who got caught up in celebrity and personality rather than did a 180 in your beliefs. This assumes a lot more rational thinking and education than is necessarily likely of the people we're talking about. thechosenone posted:It makes me think that, over time, voter ID laws will eventually start to act like a gerrymandering which has not been refurbished in a long time: it will start to hurt even the GOP as minorities and poor whites get the shaft due to it. The GOP base is older white people and white people of middle- and upper-class backgrounds. Many poor white people vote for them but they aren't part of the base we can't win. People seem to love negative campaigning if you can get a bunch of minorities to be your scapegoat. It seems to also work with Wall Street but to a lesser extent given the amount of mythology surrounding prosperity gospel and all that poo poo in this country.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:17
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botany posted:The Dems ran the least liked presidential candidate in the history of polling and still got more votes than the GOP candidate. It's ridiculous to look at this fact and conclude that Dems need to coddle the white identitarian movement in order to be electable. The votes are there, you just have to not gently caress up your campaign strategy.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Same reason that Gannon's white supremacist past is getting covered bit not his past with Goldman Sachs. 
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Nov 14, 2016 17:18
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ozmunkeh posted:Some of them voted for Trump because the candidate had an R by his name. Some voted for Trump because of the whistling in their ears. Some voted for Trump because he spoke to them about jobs. People who voted for Trump because they thought he was going to bring jobs back aren't people who are going to be won back by any messaging about how your policies will help them. Hillary spoke about how she will help these voters far more than Obama did.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:18
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Kilroy posted:Okay USPOL I think I'm just going to sit out the oncoming pages and pages of poo poo posts again about how any attention paid to economic issues is equivalent to advocating for genocide. See you in a day or two I dunno, might be longer than a couple days.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:18
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