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cinci zoo sniper posted:Status quo and somehow fantasizing that Trump will be more, or even comparably, beneficial to the economical situation, both on the whole and for lower income spectrum in particular, are different things, in my opinion. My argument concerns that and the now often mentioned idea that maybe people should've tried to figure out why rural whites hate <slur of the week>. In reality, it is impossible to bring jobs en masse to uneducated rednecks who just hate losing power over others, and see urbanisation/globalisation/equality as a threat. It's funny, since vote against political status-quo is effectively vote for societal status-quo. A politician like Trump is more or less impossible in Sweden. The cultural context is just not there. Just look at Åkesson. Also, the SD/Trump and unemployed rural whites analogy is not applicable to Sweden. The unemployment rate for Swedish born citizens (discounting first and second generation immigrants) is very low.
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Nov 16, 2016 14:39
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Cardiac posted:A politician like Trump is more or less impossible in Sweden. The cultural context is just not there. Just look at Åkesson.
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Nov 16, 2016 14:41
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Cardiac posted:Eh, last year made the situation apparent for everyone instead of being localized to certain parts and areas of Sweden. We had issues with immigrants in Malmö in the 90s. You say that, and yet I remember that in the 2014 election the voting district of my old rural village, in which with the exception of literally one secular Turkish household the only immigrants groups are Canadian and Finnish, over 50% voted SD. This in a district that used to be blindingly red. You tell me immigration is the lone cause and I'll call you crazy. In most districts there are far more plausible practical considerations at play if you actually go looking. For example, in my old district I can think of a number of local explanations, such as as the bankruptcy of the local car manufacturing plant(thanks globalization), falling pensions (lot of old poor people, thanks Göran Persson), falling milks prices putting the pressure on local farmers(thanks the EU and Putin) and alliance policies virtually guaranteeing that the youth such as me had to find occupation elsewhere with the lack of jobs effectively leaving everyone else alone in their misery. So tell me, does immigration (or racism for that matter) seem like the isolated causal factor here with all of that taken into account? And if not, what makes you believe that you can broadly generalize the motivations of every other district to such a simple narrative? I don't see one explanation, I see a institutionalized centrist policy preference which has been compounding a broad array of in-efficiencies upon each other of which we are now finally seeing the practical consequences of. cinci zoo sniper posted:In Swedish context that is just "refugees taking our welfare/jobs", i.e. the SD platform. At least you seem to indeed be a country far too grounded to elect an empty suit. Yeah but that's also the comical part. Just like Trump told the US that Mexico would pay for the wall (how we never figured out) SD keeps telling us in their budgets every year that if we just cut immigration by a 100% (mind not that Löfven effectively cut immigration by more than 50% this year alone) then hundreds of billions of SEK will materialize that can be put into public welfare and tax cuts. They are both fantasies but that doesn't make them any less real to the people who believe in them. Racism is the outcome, not the cause. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 14:49
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Status quo and somehow fantasizing that Trump will be more, or even comparably, beneficial to the economical situation, both on the whole and for lower income spectrum in particular, are different things, in my opinion. My argument concerns that and the now often mentioned idea that maybe people should've tried to figure out why rural whites hate <slur of the week>. In reality, it is impossible to bring jobs en masse to uneducated rednecks who just hate losing power over others, and see urbanisation/globalisation/equality as a threat. It's funny, since vote against political status-quo is effectively vote for societal status-quo. MiddleOne posted:and alliance policies virtually guaranteeing that the youth such as me had to find occupation elsewhere with the lack of jobs effectively leaving everyone else alone in their misery.
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Nov 16, 2016 14:53
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MiddleOne posted:For example, in my old district I can think of a number of local explanations, such as as the bankruptcy of the local car manufacturing plant(thanks globalization), falling pensions (lot of old poor people, thanks Göran Persson), falling milks prices putting the pressure on local farmers(thanks the EU and Putin) and alliance policies virtually guaranteeing that the youth such as me had to find occupation elsewhere with the lack of jobs effectively leaving everyone else alone in their misery. Listen, these people need to gently caress themselves and die, it's for the good of the world, the country, everything. Can't they just see how better everything would be if they were dead and gone? Why the gently caress are they such close minded bigots unlike us?
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Nov 16, 2016 14:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You do realize that a lot of the people who decided to sit this election out are African-Americans who have been abandoned time and time again by the Democrats? More generally, the notion that these people are just "rednecks" is just classist deflection from the real issue, as evidenced by the fact that these people voted for a freaking black man with a Muslim name just a few years ago. Yes, a lot of Trump voters would prefer to roll things back to around 1950 or earlier, but those aren't the people Hillary lost. Those were what her campaign believed to be a "blue wall" which would ensure their victory in the Rust Belt no matter what, so they might as well try to flip Arizona and Texas to make her inevitable victory all the sweeter. Edit: MiddleOne posted:Yeah but that's also the comical part. Just like Trump told the US that Mexico would pay for the wall (how we never figured out) SD keeps telling us in their budgets every year that if we just cut immigration by a 100% (mind not that Löfven effectively cut immigration by more than 50% this year alone) then hundreds of billions of SEK will materialize that can be put into public welfare and tax cuts. They are both fantasies but that doesn't make them any less real to the people who believe in them. Racism is the outcome, not the cause. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 15:04
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MiddleOne posted:You say that, and yet I remember that in the 2014 election the voting district of my old rural village, in which with the exception of literally one secular Turkish household the only immigrants groups are Canadian and Finnish, over 50% voted SD. This in a district that used to be blindingly red. You tell me immigration is the lone cause and I'll call you crazy. In most districts there are far more plausible practical considerations at play if you actually go looking. For example, in my old district I can think of a number of local explanations, such as as the bankruptcy of the local car manufacturing plant(thanks globalization), falling pensions (lot of old poor people, thanks Göran Persson), falling milks prices putting the pressure on local farmers(thanks the EU and Putin) and alliance policies virtually guaranteeing that the youth such as me had to find occupation elsewhere with the lack of jobs effectively leaving everyone else alone in their misery. No district had over 50% in Sweden. At most it was 37%, predominantly in Skåne. Highest was Lindesberg, Örebro, a municipality that had a bunch of people join ISIS. I agree with you that immigration/integration is not the sole reason for SD(Landskrona 2006 was), but rather it was the initiating factor, since they were the only political party with a clear and separate agenda on immigration, which also was aligned with popular opinion and at odds with political consensus. As you point out, SD say they will save a lot of money on cutting immigration which will restore everything to their former glory, and SD serves as a outlet for those that feel that the country is going the wrong direction in various way. SD voters are also the most pessmistic ones, which is one explanation for SDs resistance to scandals since their voters basically dislike all parties.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:20
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cinci zoo sniper posted:but I do not follow why are you trying to discuss American domestic politics in Scandinavian politics thread. cinci zoo sniper posted:You somewhat sound like the kind of an American who is now going on about the Clinton's election failure with "economic anxiety" and "should've not ostracised the rural vote", yes.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Because this
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Nov 16, 2016 15:45
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Wild Horses posted:SD wins a lot on media working against them and every party refusing to work with them, and lo and behold the media was covering up sexual assaults done by refugees. And the Right would rather relinquish power in "the worst political maneuver in swedish history DÖ" which makes a right leaning voter much more likely to jump ship. The thing is, back when the mainstream media was still openly refusing to cover SD (this is back in the mid 00s, before they got big enough for the Riksdag), there were some local newspapers that went against this policy and covered them like they would any other party, and there was a noticeable rise in support for SD in these regions. Turns out trying to out-debate populist policies is as futile as ignoring them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:46
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I'm dismissive of the notion that this is the sole reason Americans voted for Trump, which is a thing I've heard far too many times in the last week. I'd like to think that we all can do better than throwing minority groups under the bus for a change's sake.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:49
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Låtsas som att jag skrev något svinfiffigt/pantat här så att jänkarna tror jag är smart/dum
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Nov 16, 2016 15:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's the reason the people who wouldn't always have voted for a Republican voted for him. There's nothing about economic justice that implies throwing minority groups under the bus, in fact, minority groups generally stand to gain the most from economic justice. The notion that it's an either or thing is just liberals afraid that the poor are going to come take their money.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:52
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Pretty hosed up the americans voted Trump for swedish prime minister.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:54
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eightpole posted:Pretty hosed up the americans voted Trump for swedish prime minister.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:56
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eightpole posted:Låtsas som att jag skrev något svinfiffigt/pantat här så att jänkarna tror jag är smart/dum Quoting for excellent point
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Nov 16, 2016 16:44
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I feel that we both are talking past each other at this point.
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Nov 16, 2016 17:20
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Only because you keep dodging.
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Nov 16, 2016 17:26
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eightpole posted:Låtsas som att jag skrev något svinfiffigt/pantat här så att jänkarna tror jag är smart/dum 
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Nov 16, 2016 17:52
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eightpole posted:Låtsas som att jag skrev något svinfiffigt/pantat här så att jänkarna tror jag är smart/dum 
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Nov 16, 2016 18:11
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Sorry for trying to discuss oppression of minority groups by neo-nazis, I guess? What is it that you expect me to reply when you say that VP Pence is a net benefit to gays in the U.S.?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:39
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eightpole posted:Låtsas som att jag skrev något svinfiffigt/pantat här så att jänkarna tror jag är smart/dum Look you can't keep posting awesome poo poo like this and expect us to keep up.
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Nov 16, 2016 23:20
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eightpole posted:Låtsas som att jag skrev något svinfiffigt/pantat här så att jänkarna tror jag är smart/dum Ugh. Skitpostande när det är som värst.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:06
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Breva om politik på morgonkvisten sitter aldrig fel Just waiting for our election madness here. I liked the US elections in a BDSM kind of way, and I need more
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Nov 17, 2016 05:47
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Seems like Trump getting elected has been a wakeup call in Sweden. This is pretty much the point I made earlier about not demonising SD voters. http://asikt.dn.se/asikt/debatt/forlat-sd-valjare-jag-har-varit-dum/ http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/lofven-vi-har-misslyckats-med-att-fanga-manniskors-oro/
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Nov 17, 2016 13:23
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Cerebral Bore posted:SD are a bunch of washed-up neo-nazis who were smart enough to swap the brownshirts for suits. Voting for them won't fix anything, and buying into the myths they're propagating won't fix anything either. The problem facing Europe today isn't a bunch of war refugees, it's that neoliberalism is busy making GBS threads the bed once again. Pretty much my thoughts. Thinking SD would be "the voice of the little man" is just as delusional as thinking Dolan Drumpf is.
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Nov 17, 2016 13:26
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Collateral Damage posted:Seems like Trump getting elected has been a wakeup call in Sweden. This is pretty much the point I made earlier about not demonising SD voters. Lol if you think this will actually last more than a month or so. Remember this is the same person that called SD a nazi party a month ago.
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Nov 17, 2016 13:27
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BigglesSWE posted:Pretty much my thoughts. Thinking SD would be "the voice of the little man" is just as delusional as thinking Dolan Drumpf is. The voice is saying gently caress you big Man, i don't care if he is a nazi as long as he fucks your poo poo up.
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Nov 17, 2016 13:48
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If the takeaway that any of you get from this is that the establishment parties have to go full racist and not that S needs to go back to an economic policy that benefits the working class, you might be a goddamn moron.
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Nov 17, 2016 15:36
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Collateral Damage posted:Seems like Trump getting elected has been a wakeup call in Sweden. This is pretty much the point I made earlier about not demonising SD voters. the pendulum swings as they say
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Nov 17, 2016 17:11
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Cerebral Bore posted:If the takeaway that any of you get from this is that the establishment parties have to go full racist and not that S needs to go back to an economic policy that benefits the working class, you might be a goddamn moron. I don't know about Sweden but here in Denmark at least, S and the other establishment parties would fall right into the moron zone by your definition. 
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Nov 17, 2016 21:25
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Savage Cracker posted:I don't know about Sweden but here in Denmark at least, S and the other establishment parties would fall right into the moron zone by your definition.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:By any definition worth a drat. Also those Denmark loving sucks 
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Nov 17, 2016 22:45
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Savage Cracker posted:Also those Haha don't worry so does the rest of the world with the exception of like Iceland which at least is very pretty.
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Nov 18, 2016 00:03
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Fan, varför kan inte folk sluta skylla allt på invandrare/flyktingar hela jävla tiden, börjar få folk på jobbet som börjar tro på den skiten! 
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Nov 18, 2016 01:26
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You can't just point to a singular problem behind the rise of the far right. Terrorism obviously contributes. Neoliberalism contributes because it doesn't engage the working class even if they agree with it. Another thing that worries me is how much echo chambers may contribute. Urbanization creates echo chambers. Political correctness creates echo chambers. People left out of those echo chambers can through the miracle of technology create their own echo chambers on the internet. People like to say we have history on our side, that people have always gotten more equal and will continue to do so. I can't be that optimistic. The left has never before faced problems that span the entire earth. We are up against a global market that does not want to be changed, and we have to change it to both stop global warming and to reduce the ever increasing wealth gap. But global warming has already started, and could destabilize large parts of the world. Jobs are not only outsourced but increasingly automated. How would the left deal with refugee crises orders of magnitude larger than the one in Syria, while the competition for jobs is higher than ever? My fear is that the future unlike the past doesn't favor progressives, but reactionaries. Trump's wall and isolationism are the simple solutions to complex problems, and if we can't find our own solutions to such problems not even Sweden will stand against far right populism.
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Nov 18, 2016 03:51
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You shouldn't fall into complete despair. Just remember that our neo-viking descendants will be living in a much milder climate where they can support far more people than the vikings did historically, while rising sea levels makes it even harder for everyone else to avoid coastal raids. History version 2.0 is gonna be sick.
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Nov 18, 2016 06:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You shouldn't fall into complete despair. Just remember that our neo-viking descendants will be living in a much milder climate where they can support far more people than the vikings did historically, while rising sea levels makes it even harder for everyone else to avoid coastal raids. History version 2.0 is gonna be sick. Reminds me of a trashy post-apocalypse novel (what if a magical virus ate all electrical circuits) I read couple of years ago where Swedish society eventually reforms into coastal castle-towns to protect themselves from danish raids. 
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Nov 18, 2016 07:26
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Koorisch posted:Fan, varför kan inte folk sluta skylla allt på invandrare/flyktingar hela jävla tiden, börjar få folk på jobbet som börjar tro på den skiten! What's the Swedish equivalent of the SOUMI LEIONA RIIPUS so you can tell i bastun when your colleague has gone 100% nazi?  e: Forgot the n, sorry.
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Nov 18, 2016 12:04
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Koorisch posted:Fan, varför kan inte folk sluta skylla allt på invandrare/flyktingar hela jävla tiden, börjar få folk på jobbet som börjar tro på den skiten! I Norge så heter det ulovlig innvandring. De er roten til alle våre problemer og vi kan vise til Sverige som er under Sharia lov  Faens Facebook burde vært forbudt.
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Nov 18, 2016 12:12
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