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Powercrazy posted:No one thinks this though. a significant number of people on the far left and far right both believe this, actually
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Nov 16, 2016 17:57
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tower time posted:Free college definitely serves POC less than white people because of underfunded public schools and the resultant lower graduation rates. Even respected universities that try real hard to recruit POC then have real issues with actually graduating them for various reasons. lmbo ive said it liek 4 times now in this thread education reform
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Nov 16, 2016 17:59
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enraged_camel posted:Pro tip: the only people who don't think elections are about the economy are those who are economically privileged. And that's usually people living on the coasts. While I agree there are lots of economic solutions, I think it's a mistake to treat the problem as some sort of generalized economic issue. After all, the "economy" is doing well, isn't it? We've had a good economic recovery. It's just that many people are dealing with the fact that they got left behind, or their purchasing power is reduced, or their money is locked up in all sorts of fixed payments, or they have no potential to advance in their field, or they have to relocate because their town is dying, or they're trapped in a dead end job, or they can't provide for their family on a single income anymore, or their position is unstable, etc. etc. I'm sort of working my way through this thought as I write, but... I think it's a mistake to think about it being as simple as "the economy". That was the third way approach "If the economy is good, we're good". It's more about... individual power. And economic solutions can be a big, huge player in terms of individual power. But there are other ways to address it, ways that are non-economic. For example: Promoting racism and scapegoating and bigotry of various sorts. It's an effective non-economic means to increase perceived personal power through comparison to a designated underclass. One the Republicans are perfectly happy to make use of, but one I've seen plenty of Dems dip into when times get rough as well. So I think it's important to see how the economy is a major contributor in the specifics of how it impacts the live's of people, and how economic solutions can be a big part of helping that, but it's also worth keeping in mind that for a lot of people (especially lifelong Democrats I know in my personal life who didn't vote or voted Trump this time around) it's about more than that. Their economic situation might be contributing to them feeling powerless, but they're willing to accept non-economic solutions so long as they still get to feel powerful and important. And it's why people who are being barely kept afloat by government assistance can often hate and resent the government so much. That's why a lot of the rhetoric isn't just "they aren't doing enough for jobs" but also "they are so smug" - liberals to a lot to disempower rural rights even in non-economic terms, and combined with their reduced economic power of course that leaves them dissatisfied. And sometimes that disempowerment is righteous (if they are using that power to abuse minorities and discriminate against the oppressed), but we're all better off we can offer them some other better way to be empowered. And that can lead to lots of bad things but isn't necessarily in and of itself a bad thing and we need to seize opportunities to win these people over on non-economic issues as well, where we can do so and still do the right thing. Anyway this is just sort of a dumb tangent and feel free to remind that this is the McDonalds drive through, but I guess I just sort of feel like the primary Democratic ideal should be a focus on empowering people and helping them feel important and like their lives are meaningful and they are accepted but in productive ways that make the country better off for everyone. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 18:02 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 18:00
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Battle Royale Baby posted:The biggest lie anyone could tell is that this was about legitimate economic anxiety. And, for people who don’t live here this stereotyping of the “Rustbelt” as some economic hellscape is ridiculous when you look at the recovery since the recession. What these voters wanted to hear was a racist, xenophobic appeal, and that is not something we could offer or ever desire to offer them. Absolute, utterly obvious bullshit. Sincerely, someone who's lived in Scranton, PA. As usual, race is just a tool used by those who would sneeringly rule us to keep us fighting each other.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:00
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I'm having a hard time parsing your English, but if my understanding is correct you may need to eat poo poo and die. getting mad at the copy/pasted comment from jezebel, nice
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Nov 16, 2016 18:01
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I definitely think that some social issues are a distraction, but some of them are also vitally important If you're spending an inordinate amount of time at this point worrying about representation in corporate boardrooms, you're spending an inordinate amount of time worrying about the rights of the kind of person who would be in line to get into a corporate boardroom if it wasn't for the old boys' club, which is a pretty tremendously privileged class of people. On the other hand, poor women in red states have to convince their shithead (and probably pro-life) middle managers to give them a (most likely unpaid) day off of work if they need to get an abortion because of the travel involved now that most clinics have been shut down for frivolous reasons, and oh yeah black people are getting murdered by police for no reason and with no consequences. "Social issues" is an extremely broad umbrella that you can't really make a blanket judgment on. Again though this is all Easy For Me To Say so I will readily shut the gently caress up if challenged 
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Nov 16, 2016 18:01
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This page reminded me of this interview Chelsea Clinton gave in 2014 sometime after marrying a guy who ran a hedge fund and buying a ten million dollar apartment in NYCquote:"It is frustrating, because who wants to grow up and follow their parents? Clinton said of her work at the foundation. "I’ve tried really hard to care about things that were very different from my parents. I was curious if I could care about [money] on some fundamental level, and I couldn’t. That wasn’t the metric of success I wanted in my life. I’ve talked about this to my friends who are doctors and whose parents are doctors, or who are lawyers and their parents are lawyers. It’s a funny thing to realise I feel called to this work both as a daughter and also as someone who believes I have contributions to make." I just don't understand how that family failed to connect with the working class. Just don't get it.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:02
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Fullhouse posted:the best I can guess is that since majority-minority primary schools already heavily underperform and most of their students already don't even graduate high school it wouldn't do them much good That and when you say, "Yes, but let's do this thing that helps white people the most first, and we'll work on those things that really impact you later," they have good reason to believe that later won't come. The left doesn't exactly have a great track record on including blacks/minorities in our sweeping programs (see GI Bill, Social Security Act) and we need to be mindful of that history even if our intentions are good. (I'm still for free college.)
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Nov 16, 2016 18:02
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Karl Barks posted:getting mad at the copy/pasted comment from jezebel, nice 
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Nov 16, 2016 18:03
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Modus Pwnens posted:That and when you say, "Yes, but let's do this thing that helps white people the most first, and we'll work on those things that really impact you later," they have good reason to believe that later won't come.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:04
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Modus Pwnens posted:and we'll work on those things that really impact you later no one is saying this tho
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Nov 16, 2016 18:07
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Also any education reform should involve tuition not only for college but for (legit) trade schools. Also provide better incentives for people who take up trades or degrees that actually matter for the country. We need STEM degrees, not an army of liberal arts media studies with film minors.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:10
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I was gonna criticize you guys, all the examples of big progressive social reforms leaving out minorities are at least 50 years old. But then I realized I can't think of any big progressive social reforms that happened in the last 50 years lol
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Nov 16, 2016 18:10
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Modus Pwnens posted:That and when you say, "Yes, but let's do this thing that helps white people the most first, and we'll work on those things that really impact you later," they have good reason to believe that later won't come. Agreed, luckily the person who was doing that by saying things like "free college if you have the resources and connections to be an entrepreneur." And "12 dollars an hour (if you work 40 hours a week)" isn't welcome to lead the party anymore. How about a new chorus like "Healthcare is a right." and "15 dollar minimum wage," no proviso's.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:11
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Guy Goodbody posted:I was gonna criticize you guys, all the examples of big progressive social reforms leaving out minorities are at least 50 years old. The Americans with Disabilities Act comes to mind but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:11
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Modus Pwnens posted:That and when you say, "Yes, but let's do this thing that helps white people the most first, and we'll work on those things that really impact you later," they have good reason to believe that later won't come. Yeah, it's vitally important that we try to do multiple things, for multiple groups, at the same time. Many people, not just minorities, are rightly unwilling to "wait their turn" when it's painfully obvious that given half a chance to ignore them politicians will make sure their turn never actually comes. Free college education is a great thing, but we do need to remember that there are plenty of people we want to help for whom it provides absolutely nothing of value, or who only see lesser secondary benefits, and we need to make sure we offer them something of real value at the same time and alongside it.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:11
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Battle Royale Baby posted:Also any education reform should involve tuition not only for college but for (legit) trade schools. Nice quote...Where'd you get that from reddit/MRAs?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:12
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Modus Pwnens posted:That and when you say, "Yes, but let's do this thing that helps white people the most first, and we'll work on those things that really impact you later," they have good reason to believe that later won't come. This is a good post Basically we need to fix everything for everyone, man being the only party actually interested in running the country is tough sometimes
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Nov 16, 2016 18:13
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I'm not politically or economically savvy. Is it really so hard for democrats to platform on helping minorities and address working class concerns?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:14
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100 degrees Calcium posted:I'm not politically or economically savvy. Is it really so hard for democrats to platform on helping minorities and address working class concerns? It was a central plank of the Neoliberal platform to pit Social Issues against economic issues.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:15
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Battle Royale Baby posted:Also any education reform should involve tuition not only for college but for (legit) trade schools. liberal arts degrees  you're gonna have to try harder
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Nov 16, 2016 18:16
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Battle Royale Baby posted:Also any education reform should involve tuition not only for college but for (legit) trade schools. i have a stem degree and im about as useless as it comes
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Nov 16, 2016 18:16
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Powercrazy posted:Nice quote...Where'd you get that from reddit/MRAs? he's not exactly wrong though like not to diminish liberal arts degrees but science, math, and engineering degrees should be emphasized since science is good of course science/math/engineering needs to be emphasized starting in grade school and not at the college level is how you do it e: also needs to be emphasized for minorities and women more than it is now Gringostar has issued a correction as of 18:19 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 18:17
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Gringostar posted:he's not exactly wrong though 
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Nov 16, 2016 18:17
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Battle Royale Baby posted:Also any education reform should involve tuition not only for college but for (legit) trade schools. 
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Nov 16, 2016 18:19
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Most kids see math as boring dumb busywork because math is taught as boring dumb busywork I'm sure everyone has heard the analogy that the way we teach math is like if you taught music by requiring ten years of theory taught via worksheet before letting kids hear a song, but it's very accurate
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Nov 16, 2016 18:20
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bernie giving a speech tonight at 7 eastern
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Nov 16, 2016 18:21
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bump_fn posted:bernie giving a speech tonight at 7 eastern noice is it about the pipeline or something diff
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Nov 16, 2016 18:21
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loquacius posted:Most kids see math as boring dumb busywork because math is taught as boring dumb busywork You're saying there should be more word problems?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:22
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Powercrazy posted:Nice quote...Where'd you get that from reddit/MRAs? No I'm one of those useless tryhards with the liberal arts major + film minor and deep seated regrets
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Nov 16, 2016 18:22
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anime was right posted:noice bump_fn, Bernie Sanders is going to give a major speech on Wednesday night about the future of our country under the presidency of Donald Trump. This is something you'll want to watch. Will you RSVP to say you'll watch Bernie's speech? We'll send you a link to watch online before the speech starts at 7pm ET.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:22
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anime was right posted:noice something about powering a hawaiian king
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Nov 16, 2016 18:23
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An army of liberal arts majors is actually an extremely great thing to have tho
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Nov 16, 2016 18:23
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https://go.ourrevolution.com/page/s/bernie-speech
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Nov 16, 2016 18:23
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bump_fn posted:bump_fn, neato
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Nov 16, 2016 18:23
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crazy cloud posted:An army of liberal arts majors is actually an extremely great thing to have tho What, for clearing a mine field?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:24
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Just got the same bernie email, aw yea....
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Nov 16, 2016 18:24
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Guy Goodbody posted:You're saying there should be more word problems? We should emphasize things with real-world applications in general, and I'm also a fan of formal logic / proofs being brought into play earlier. Fractals are great too. Warning though, I'm not an education specialist, I'm a CS major.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:27
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Guy Goodbody posted:What, for clearing a mine field? for having a country w literate citizens
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Nov 16, 2016 18:28
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loquacius posted:We should emphasize things with real-world applications in general, and I'm also a fan of formal logic / proofs being brought into play earlier. Fractals are great too. Warning though, I'm not an education specialist, I'm a CS major. also more music education since there is a ton of overlap between music and math
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Nov 16, 2016 18:29
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