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magpie posted:You make a good case. None of those guys were offering Rick and his crew a chance of survival though. Negan is the only one giving him an option, comply or die not just die. And he's not been outnumbered quite like this before. Outnumbered Terminus. Comply or Die, the governor. He went pacifist after a long uneventful stay in a safe prison. You're agreeing with me.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:16
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VendaGoat posted:Outnumbered Terminus. Most of them would've died in Terminus if it hadn't of been for Carol's miracle intervention. Rick tried to make peace with the governor but he chopped Hershals head off. He was pacifist cause he realised he'd been a lovely leader and left it up to other people to lead for a while. He went in heavy handed with Negan already last season, slit those guys throats in the middle of the night but now realised he's totally outnumbered and paid for it. Rick's being a realist at the moment. He knows that other communities are being subjugated by Negan. They did that daft thing in the caravan last season finale where he was roadblocked at every turn. How could he possibly think he could wage open warefare against these guys. Incidentally the guy that's kept most people alive and thriving is the guy whole leads the Kingdom community and they fully submit to Negan, only passive resistance in giving them dirty pigs. Rick's safest move at the moment is to do the same but I'm certain he'll be convinced otherwise and start or join in some rebellion of Negan.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:29
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magpie posted:He was pacifist cause he realised he'd been a lovely leader and left it up to other people to lead for a while. He went in heavy handed with Negan already last season, slit those guys throats in the middle of the night but now realised he's totally outnumbered and paid for it. Rick's being a realist at the moment. He knows that other communities are being subjugated by Negan. They did that daft thing in the caravan last season finale where he was roadblocked at every turn. How could he possibly think he could wage open warefare against these guys. You're conflating open warfare with the numerous times he has had to remove a dictator from power. If you'd like to me research, compile and present what happens when one of these fine upstanding gentlemen is removed, well, I'm not going to do it over a TV show. There is a reason why the idiom, "Cut the head off the snake.", came to pass. Rick has now had numerous opportunities, including one that he could have prepared for and drawn Negan into a completely lethal trap. magpie posted:Incidentally the guy that's kept most people alive and thriving is the guy whole leads the Kingdom community and they fully submit to Negan, only passive resistance in giving them dirty pigs. Rick's safest move at the moment is to do the same but I'm certain he'll be convinced otherwise and start or join in some rebellion of Negan. And this is a Non-sequitur.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:05
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This is just an "execution vs point" argument. The point is that Rick is beaten by a bigger and badder group than he's ever faced before. The execution will fail to convince you if you pay too much attention to it. Walking Dead isn't a good enough show to analyze very deeply.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:18
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VendaGoat posted:You're conflating open warfare with the numerous times he has had to remove a dictator from power. If you'd like to me research, compile and present what happens when one of these fine upstanding gentlemen is removed, well, I'm not going to do it over a TV show. There is a reason why the idiom, "Cut the head off the snake.", came to pass. Rick has now had numerous opportunities, including one that he could have prepared for and drawn Negan into a completely lethal trap. All Rick has seen is that Negan has dozens of guys who seem to be fully onboard with the brutality. He can't know the command structure or cohesiveness of the group, they could be loyal army buddies, many family members or just dicks in common living the high life through brutality. It could be that bobblehead mustasche guy from the headbashing scene could be his number two ready to assume leadership if Negan goes down or any number of other guys looking to be the next warlord. A power vacuum isn't an ideal either, there are also numerous incidences where removing the head of the snake has created terrible chaos too. Then they are under siege and I bring back my point from before, they lose that fight. I would agree with you that Rick would be completely out of character rolling over if it was just Glen and Abe getting dead, that's nothing new, but as well as all that when Negan pushed him to the point that he was going to mutilate his son, he broke. It's beyond anything Rick has gone through, the straw that breaks the camels back. He then offered him an out and he took it. The only way I could see you your method be feasible would be to setup the ambush for Negan at Alexandria, take him and that detachment out and then just get the hell out of dodge before the next lot show up. You can't beat all of them. It would be more realistic if Rick just grabbed his son and daughter and made a run for it but it is more in character, in the realm of the show, that he is staying behind in some sort of loyalty to the Alexandrians, Maggie and Daryl, which I guess is the point most people aren't buying from the writers.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:50
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Fitzy Fitz posted:This is just an "execution vs point" argument. The point is that Rick is beaten by a bigger and badder group than he's ever faced before. The execution will fail to convince you if you pay too much attention to it. Walking Dead isn't a good enough show to analyze very deeply. I made the point in the last thread that people are comparing this to Mad Men when the should just switch off their brain and compare it to 24 but what's more fun than endlessly debating if Glen can assume the size of a Tim Hortorns Coffee cup under a dumpster or who set the quarry on fire?
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Nov 16, 2016 03:00
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magpie posted:All Rick has seen is that Negan has dozens of guys who seem to be fully onboard with the brutality. He can't know the command structure or cohesiveness of the group, they could be loyal army buddies, many family members or just dicks in common living the high life through brutality. It could be that bobblehead mustasche guy from the headbashing scene could be his number two ready to assume leadership if Negan goes down or any number of other guys looking to be the next warlord. A power vacuum isn't an ideal either, there are also numerous incidences where removing the head of the snake has created terrible chaos too. Then they are under siege and I bring back my point from before, they lose that fight. Or just leave Alexandria. Anyways, I think both sides are talking past each other after missing an early crucial point. This arc feels wrong to a lot of people because the writers went nuts in earlier seasons, presenting our heroes of being as capable as a seal team. They want to have it both ways - insane death squad when needed, Grey's Anatomy in the apocalypse melodrama when convenient. All shows manipulate their viewers to some extent,, some seamlessly, but TWD is of the type where some viewers are starting to really feel the writers' heavy hand and they are reacting to it. It shouldn't matter because of course Rick and co. will win in the end but the swings back and forth don't feel organic. It's just not strong writing. Writing has never been a real strong point on this show.
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Nov 16, 2016 03:16
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Enderzero posted:Or just leave Alexandria. Anyways, I think both sides are talking past each other after missing an early crucial point. This arc feels wrong to a lot of people because the writers went nuts in earlier seasons, presenting our heroes of being as capable as a seal team. They want to have it both ways - insane death squad when needed, Grey's Anatomy in the apocalypse melodrama when convenient. All shows manipulate their viewers to some extent,, some seamlessly, but TWD is of the type where some viewers are starting to really feel the writers' heavy hand and they are reacting to it. It shouldn't matter because of course Rick and co. will win in the end but the swings back and forth don't feel organic. It's just not strong writing. Writing has never been a real strong point on this show. This is true
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Nov 16, 2016 03:20
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I really want to know how the Kingdom ended up with such a good deal (by Negan standards). All I can imagine is that Negan and Ezekiel met, both weighed up the odds and figured the Kingdom could well win a war against the Saviors, but Ezekiel offered to pay tribute anyway in order to prevent a fight.
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Nov 16, 2016 03:56
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Senor Tron posted:I really want to know how the Kingdom ended up with such a good deal (by Negan standards). Also Ezekiel's charisma might mean a shitload of defections if the war goes on long enough. Sure a random Kingdom-dweller might have less material wealth than a random Savior, but at least you can be sure King Ezekiel won't kidnap your loved ones or randomly decide to kill you and make an example out of you. DarklyDreaming fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 04:07
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DarklyDreaming posted:Also Ezekiel's charisma might mean a shitload of defections if the war goes on long enough. Sure a random Kingdom-dweller might have less material wealth than a random Savior, but at least you can be sure King Ezekiel won't kidnap your loved ones or randomly decide to kill you and make an example out of you. Ezekiel is pretty cool and felt a bit different than what TWD usually does, I liked him more than super-exposed Negan. They reaaally really should've used Ogg for this episode but even had they used Ogg, it still would've just felt like filler.
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Nov 16, 2016 04:14
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It seems like they really missed the opportunity for Rick to show some passive/secret resistance in the final moments for the sake of an "oh lord this is what Rick is like now?" style cliffhanger. The writers really love cliffhangers to the detriment of pretty much every other episode. That being said telling all of Alexandra what told them is the right choice, they haven't exactly proved themselves to be level headed in the past. I would not tell 'builder guy that wanted to bang Carol' that we are going to fight back and we just need to play along, the more of the general populace that gets on board with their new lifestyle the better.
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Nov 16, 2016 05:31
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The real reason he got the deal is Negan probably said I will kill all of you if you don't pay half and Ezekiel immediately said ok. You guys forget that the reason Rick got the raw end of the deal is because they took out an entire base of their guys. I get the feeling that no other community has done that or even close to that.
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Nov 16, 2016 05:31
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:The real reason he got the deal is Negan probably said I will kill all of you if you don't pay half and Ezekiel immediately said ok. You guys forget that the reason Rick got the raw end of the deal is because they took out an entire base of their guys. I get the feeling that no other community has done that or even close to that. Yeah, deep down Negan is probably making GBS threads his pants about Rick and realizes he has somewhat of a tiger by the tail here. As badass as Negan is, he has to have some inkling Rick and his group are serious post apoc operators who are on a different level from any of the local yokels. If he doesn't realize it now, he might really get it when he watches the tape of Crazy Murder Beard Rick and the others confessing how they crossed state lines on a murder spree that took out multiple well organized, well armed communities of psychopaths and cannibals. He's really trying hard to break Rick and keep him down, but he's gotta worry about if he truly has, and if Rick can just overwhelm him. I do think that's why he took the guns, and I think Coral was just the excuse he used for a plan he already had. magpie posted:I made the point in the last thread that people are comparing this to Mad Men when the should just switch off their brain and compare it to 24 but what's more fun than endlessly debating if Glen can assume the size of a Tim Hortorns Coffee cup under a dumpster or who set the quarry on fire? One way I'd compare this to Mad Men is I think Rick is a lot like Don Draper. He's on some sort of Life Journey where he's trying to learn stuff about who he is and what he should do in the world, but he keeps backsliding into bad habits and we have no idea where he'll end up. Rick can't decide if he wants to be a crazy hardass badass leader or a farmer who knuckles under and so he flip flops back and forth. Maybe in the end Rick will create greatest Coke commercial of all time.
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Nov 16, 2016 05:45
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This show would be a lot different if they had started making it a few years after the comic ends. In fact, someone should release an abridged series edit when it's all over.
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Nov 16, 2016 06:03
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The books won't end until Kirkman dies. Please make it happen.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:05
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:The real reason he got the deal is Negan probably said I will kill all of you if you don't pay half and Ezekiel immediately said ok. I believe drat near the point of a toxx (I'm not actually going to toxx for this, because making sense is not AMC's strong suit) that the over-eager idiot kid Morgan is training had his father's head bashed in by Negan. It was written all over that scene.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:10
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:Has anyone else gave up watching? I actually pulled the plug and stopped after episode one. I felt conflicted because there really was a time it was one of my favorite shows on TV, probably up until around the time they got to Alexandria. If only we were watching the Darabont version of this show yet, I bet it'd still rule.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:14
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Blazing Ownager posted:I believe drat near the point of a toxx (I'm not actually going to toxx for this, because making sense is not AMC's strong suit) that the over-eager idiot kid Morgan is training had his father's head bashed in by Negan. During that scene, I knew that definitely had to be a lie, because no one dies that easily from walkers anymore in the show, unless the plot calls for it like it did with Tyresse, but I hadn't connected it with Negan being a secret to them until now.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:49
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Blazing Ownager posted:If only we were watching the Darabont version of this show yet, I bet it'd still rule. Darabont sucks at TV. He did a mobster show for TNT shortly after being fired and it was terrible.
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Nov 16, 2016 08:29
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Blazing Ownager posted:I believe drat near the point of a toxx (I'm not actually going to toxx for this, because making sense is not AMC's strong suit) that the over-eager idiot kid Morgan is training had his father's head bashed in by Negan. My hope is that Morgan's aikido crap gets the kid killed by not killing someone they really should and he finally snaps out of it (as long as he doesn't just go crazy again and write nonsense on the walls about "clearing"). I hate pacifist Morgan and that thing with the Wolf was just stupid. Like I get that he saw his old crazy self in the guy and wanted to do the same for him as the fat guy, but there's a time and place for that and while your town is being overrun by killers and zombies is not that time.
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Nov 16, 2016 10:08
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Steve Shultz posted:It seems like they really missed the opportunity for Rick to show some passive/secret resistance in the final moments for the sake of an "oh lord this is what Rick is like now?" style cliffhanger. I think an outsider needs to come in and convince Rick that resistance is not futile. There will be a 'spy ring' for the various communities under Negan's control plotting their attack and overthrow of The Saviors but it will take a while.
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Nov 16, 2016 12:24
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magpie posted:Then what? Plink the 30 odd other armed guys he also brought along then the dozens more of brutal henchmen that will roll through right after? If Rick popped Negan he would have been dropped immediately then everyone else in Alexandria. Nobody w magpie posted:Then what? Plink the 30 odd other armed guys he also brought along then the dozens more of brutal henchmen that will roll through right after? If Rick popped Negan he would have been dropped immediately then everyone else in Alexandria. They had more than enough firepower back in Alexandria to squash Negan and his twenty guys at the gates. They live in a WALLED town. Negan doesn't have heavy firepower. Rick is a bitch. When Negan was is in the house with Carl he was at a complete disadvantage, Away from everyone except two goons
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Nov 16, 2016 16:45
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They couldn't beat Negan because Darryl isn't there with his trusty bazooka http://i.imgur.com/vLjGJpy.gifv
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Nov 16, 2016 17:10
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magpie posted:All you folks talking about boring it is, how the hell did you stick around through the farm, the governor episodes, the beth episodes, the Morgan episode, and the teen/kid drama last season? You're right. The show's become hilariously stupid, not boring. If you want boring go back to Season 2. poo poo I will go ahead and say it now: Season 2 was worse than anything so far this season. It's poo poo. Anyone faulting it for just being boring needs to remember how loving stupid everyone was that season to; honestly Walking Dead has never had a season bottom out past the farm, even the worst lovely ones. Does anyone remember Andrea's bullshit? Any of it? Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 18:12
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So the new conspiracy theory is that Daryl was blinking Morse code of the Saviors central location to Rick.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:46
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Shannon was stabbed
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Nov 16, 2016 18:47
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Blazing Ownager posted:You're right. The show's become hilariously stupid, not boring. If you want boring go back to Season 2. I'll give you that. However, the show was in turmoil and was forced at the last second to double the number of episodes so there are extenuating circumstances. What's their excuse for this season?
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Nov 16, 2016 18:52
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aBagorn posted:So the new conspiracy theory is that Daryl was blinking Morse code of the Saviors central location to Rick. Apparently per the internet he blinks out "I-EAST" https://gfycat.com/UntimelySardonicArmadillo Actually looks like it in the attached clip 80s James Hetfield fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 18:53
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Even if he was blinking Morse code, how would they show that in another episode? Like, would Rick hold a church meeting and tell everyone "hey guys, Daryl was actually blinking in code to me and I had to pretend I didn't see that"? If he really was communicating in code, they would have let the audience in on it.
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Nov 16, 2016 19:23
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aBagorn posted:So the new conspiracy theory is that Daryl was blinking Morse code of the Saviors central location to Rick. Well doesn't Michonne, when unearthing the Sniper Rifle in the fireplace, walk right past a giant Morse Code poster hanging on the wall? Foreshadow! edit: ha, she loving does. I KNEW that was too ham fisted to be a random prop. 
BonoMan fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 19:40
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JazzFlight posted:Even if he was blinking Morse code, how would they show that in another episode? Even if Rick and Darryl aren't 100% broke, they still saw two friends get murdered after a stupidly elaborate setup to get them to the right place, and act that required like a hundred people or more. So, they aren't going to start telling people like Spencer what the deal is because he'd roll over in a goddamn nanosecond. Also, they got to stretch this out somehow.
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Nov 16, 2016 19:41
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Oh wow, go east! We never would have thought of that! Shouldn't the Alexandria crew have a good idea of everything that's around them? Didn't they say they had already cleared most of the county of resources?
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Nov 16, 2016 19:42
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80s James Hetfield posted:Apparently per the internet he blinks out "I-EAST"  if this turns out to be true. This loving show.
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Nov 16, 2016 19:52
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moist turtleneck posted:Oh wow, go east! We never would have thought of that! They didn't know about Hilltop or The Kingdom, so it is possible the Saviors are just as far out as those are.
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Nov 16, 2016 19:52
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Alexandria also didn't know about the giant pit of zombies (e: before rick found it), so it's not exactly surprising that there is more out there than they know about. Still, "go east" isn't exactly helpful. Surely they'd have plenty of lookouts posted in a wide perimeter to see if any scouts are looking for them.
yeah I eat ass fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 20:14
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Blazing Ownager posted:You're right. The show's become hilariously stupid, not boring. If you want boring go back to Season 2. Season 2 had Shane. They badly need a Shane or Merle type to cause drama and fighting within the group. If Spenser is that, then he's a very boring version of it. When Rick said without turning around that if Spenser said Glenn or Abraham again he would break his jaw, Shane would have screamed their names. Daryl was more interesting in Season 2 because you weren't sure which way his character would go yet. I liked Season 2 a lot but then I binged it and watched it in 2 days.
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Nov 16, 2016 22:32
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some guy on the bus posted:Season 2 had Shane. They badly need a Shane or Merle type to cause drama and fighting within the group. If Spenser is that, then he's a very boring version of it. When Rick said without turning around that if Spenser said Glenn or Abraham again he would break his jaw, Shane would have screamed their names. Its amazing how much better this show is when binged
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Nov 16, 2016 22:53
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Yeah I think that's why I liked it so much. I started late and binged from the beginning until they got t terminus at the end of season 4 I believe? Then I started watching it in real time per episode which is when I started to lose interest. I actually really enjoyed season 2 but I watched it in the matter of a week or 2 instead of months like you would be watching live.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:39
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Alexandria also didn't know about the giant pit of zombies (e: before rick found it), so it's not exactly surprising that there is more out there than they know about. Still, "go east" isn't exactly helpful. Surely they'd have plenty of lookouts posted in a wide perimeter to see if any scouts are looking for them. Youd think after abraham had been there for a while there wouldve been something like this. Proper patrols, forward positions, people on picket. Nah gently caress it, never had anything take us unawares, dont worry about it. While we're at it we wont put proper road blocks near our entrances, have a fire watch or work on improving our fences with maybe a pit or something either. Their lack of ability to learn from anything is maddening.
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